Heated Water Tank

[flicka]

I am considering fitting the Dealer option "Winter Kit", (Fresh Water Heater / Insulation) to our Autocruise Sportstar.

It comprises an Electrical Heater element inserted in the Tank & an Insulated blanket. Thou not sure if it's 12v or 230v at themoment.

 

What is the panel's verdict regarding heating of the Fresh Water.

Is there any risk of Legionella to be taken into consideration.

 

Has anyone had the Swift / Autocruise Winter Kit fitted ?

[ips]

Why not just lag the tank with immersion heater blanket type stuff. it would have to be very very cold to freeze through that.

[flicka]

Hi IPS

The Winter Kit just looks convienient and should be made to measure.

It also includes some other bits:-

The new Winter Pack option adds water tank heaters, insulated pipes and fridge vent covers.

 

So I assume it includes a Waste Water Tank Heater also, but that would not concern me regarding the Legionella query.

[ips]

Well I am no expert but with regards to the legionella question I spose its quite possible that you could have a problem by warming the water.

[david lloyd]

I don't think the 12v heater elements for fresh tanks keep the water much more than just above freezing - that will still be a lot colder than summertime water. Our new van will have heater elements as we camp all year round even with underslung tanks but we do tend to use a five litre refillable bottle for drinking water - the tank is used for washing up etc.

 

David

[747]

It is my belief that the heater element will only cut in when the water approaches a set temperature and will cut out automatically after raising the temp to a set figure.

 

I do not think it is a 'heater' in the normal sense of the word.

[woody.]

Hi flicka , ive got the winter pack on my swift bolero , powereed by the 12v system ,according to the handbook its 30w 2.5amp . I havent used it yet but i would only use it in freezing conditions anyway and i cant see it warming the water much to cause any harm , what im wondering is , its winter , long dark nights , more tv , blown heating , and sometimes this heater how will my battery cope ? then again i can always go for a run every couple of days to get the batteries charged up :-|

[Guest JudgeMental]

If its anything like woddys system 30 watts is nothing...But I would insulate it myself to start with, and see how you get on over the winter, unless planning to go to the Alps......and only heat tank if necessary

 

ask around for what is considered the best sheet material, cut it to size and using a good adhesive, cover the tanks. Waste tank in freezing conditions is best left open on site with a bucket underneath anyway.

 

I would think water would not be standing long enough to get LD, and certainly not with a 30 watt heater :-D

 

http://www.hse.gov.uk/legionnaires/whatis.htm

[flicka]

When I started to look at the Winter Pack option, I could not identify if they operated on 12v or 240v.

 

Thanks Woody for the power requirement detail & Eddie for the Legionella link.

From Eddie's link, I am able to determine the heater output is not sufficient to heat the water to a temperature that will promote the Legionella bacteria.

 

Thanks for everyone's input.

I will get some more details regarding the Winter Pack, as it will be purpose made to fit & the Heaters can be wired into the Motorhome Control circuit & I won't compromise my warranty.

[Guest JudgeMental]

while pricing up our new panel van, winter tanks are a very expensive option for what they offer....... you can DIY it for a fraction of the cost :-D

[woody.]

I agree with the judge , my tanks and pipes are well lagged , the pipes with the type of foam lagging you get from diy shops and the tanks are covered with what actually looks like the thick loft insulation [ the type with the silver foil on ] cant be a hard job i wouldnt have thought .

[Fionablueinky]

Hi

 

We have an heater in our underslung water tank, and ive insulated the pipes and also did the tank, found it quiet hard to do the tank, duck tape came unstuck eventually manged to use bungy cords but no where at the back to attach them properly but managed till spring and im going to have another go this afternoon to re do the tank, I wish id let the dealer do it when we bought the van and they fitted the heater.

 

We went to York last January and it was -9 and the tank was fine didn't have any problems so I difinatly think it was worth the money.

 

 

[rupert123]

The underslung fresh water tank on my Swift is insulated anyway, would have thought yours was the same John . I just had the water heater fitted and insulated the short outlet pipe myself. The heater is fitted through inspection cap and cost was £150 fitted. Fine in the UK so far down to little below freezing. Do not drink the water from tanks anyway.

[Derek Uzzell]

It’s possible that Swift/Autocruise use tank-heaters sourced from CAK as the element specification quoted by Woody matches that of the CAK product. The CAK catalogue is downloadable, but I've copied the relevant information below.

 

"TANK DE-FROST ELEMENT

 

Designed to reduce the chance of stored water freezing up by warming the water sufficiently to prevent freezing up of tank. The stainless element is simply installed by nutting through side wall of tank 55mm (2 1/8") up from base, preferably near pump outlet. Without additional insulation the element alone should prevent 45 litres of water freezing at temperatures down to –25°C. Larger capacities may need additional insulation of tank to protect to this level (Tank wrap & Styrofoam). To save battery power consumption, use tank insulation wrap to reduce heat loss from tank walls. This will make the element's job easier and will therefore be on for reduced times saving a lot of power, while providing much better protection.

 

We recommend illuminated on / off switches are installed with both elements to confirm power is off as their work is not visible. Both elements are powered by 12 volts DC supply at 30 watts and consume 2.5 amps. Use CBE MC12N/G switch see page 80. Suitable for plastic and metal tanks but not fuel tanks.

 

DFE-01 manually switched de-frost element is fitted to larger Systems to supplement the DFE- 02 during very cold weather, When additional protection is required, it is simply switched on. Stainless element size: DFE-01 115 mm long x 15 mm dia.

 

DFE-02 has inbuilt automatic thermostats, turning it on at 5°C and off at 10°C. Stainless element size: DFE-02 200 mm long x 18 mm dia.

 

TANK INSULATING WRAP

 

Aluminized thermally reflective multi-layer air entrapped Insulating wrap. Provides very effective thermal protection for underslung tanks. When used in conjunction with De-frost Elements it provides the ultimate protection. Simply wrap tank like a Christmas present, securing insulation with grey extra strong securing tape, to provide a very effective tank insulating Jacket. Supplied per metre on a roll width of 1200 mm

 

BXTX12...Insulating wrap 1200mm (48”) wide per linear metre.

BXGST.....Grey extra strong securing tape for tank wrap."

 

My Hobby has two heating elements in its uninsulated external waste-water tank and these are wired so that they can only operate when the motorhome's engine is running or the vehicle is on 230V hook-up. Although the heaters' 12V current drain is not that large, it would be insidious in extremely cold weather and this wiring arrangement prevents the leisure battery being flattened accidentally.

 

[flicka]

Thanks Derek,

From the information I have gleened regarding the Swift/ Autocruise "Winter Pack", I would agree CAK appears to be the source.

My concern is the electrical connection of the Heater Elements to the Van Control Panel & ensuring I don't screw-up the Warranty.

 

So the Dealer Fit price £190, which also includes the Fridge Vent Covers & Pipework Insulation, will give me peace of mind.

[woody.]

[so the Dealer Fit price £190, which also includes the Fridge Vent Covers & Pipework Insulation, will give me peace of mind.

 

 

Youve got it in one flicker , well worth the money ;-)

[Derek Uzzell]

CAK's prices for the tank-heaters are, respectively, around £42 and £66, while the fridge winter-cover are priced at £17-£28 depending on the ventilation-grille type. So £190 for the complete task, including tank/pipework insulation and labour, certainly doesn't sound extortionate.

[Neil Hunt]

Had a frost heater fitted to our Nuevo's fresh water tank (110ltr water) at a cost of £143, with no insulation on the tank. It is 12v and ran it overnight and during the day last week when temperatures fell for a few hours to freezing (frost on windscreen in the morningof our car but not the mororhome). (not sure if they took the radio remote supply to facilitate this, the switch mentioned in the hand book is missing)

 

There is an illuminated switch for the device but not sure if it works at all. Tested the water at various times throught 24 hour period, which meant the device had less water to heat as the day and night wore on, but could feel no rise in temperature. Appreciate this is not scientific (no thermometer available) but the water remained cold enough to make the hands ache over the 24 hour period. So, not optimistic it would be effective if the temp went right down. During the day I used hook up asnd left it to the battery overnight. The battery did show a chsarge drop on the internal display.

 

I will be looking to add insualtion, I use a bucket normally for the waste anyway, which is a very small tank (40 litres or so).

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

The main risk will involve the pipework rather than the tank itself. It would take a good while for a relatively large volume of water in an enclosed vessel to turn into a giant ice-lolly, even when the outside temperature is well below zero, but very little time for the water in an exposed supply-hose to freeze solid. So it's vital that pipework is well-insulated and, if possible, protected from airflow over it when the vehicle is in motion.

 

There have been a couple of complaints on this forum from owners of Continental European-built motorhomes (one of which had an expensive optional 'winter pack' fitted) about water pipes inside the vehicle freezing up, never mind external pipework.

[art338]

When your tank is only part filled with slightly warm water, condensation will occur on the inside of the tank, and, being warm and moist it will be a lovely breading ground for bugs.

 

Meaning you will have to be extra vigilant in cleaning the tank and ALL the pipe work ALL the time and to drain it and clean it at every opportunity. Playing with warm water is not adviseable.

 

Eventually costing far more than the original layout, and for what?

 

If this were so important the manufacturers would fit heaters.

[Robinhood]

art338 - 2010-10-30 1:49 PM

 

When your tank is only part filled with slightly warm water, condensation will occur on the inside of the tank, and, being warm and moist it will be a lovely breading ground for bugs.

 

Meaning you will have to be extra vigilant in cleaning the tank and ALL the pipe work ALL the time and to drain it and clean it at every opportunity. Playing with warm water is not adviseable.

 

 

AFAIK, many of the tank heaters are thermostatatic, and cut in and out around the 4 degrees C mark. The water in the waste tank in winter, even with the heater on will thus be at significantly lower temperature than it would be when used in normal summer conditions (even more so when you have taken a shower or drained the washing up!).

 

That being the case I don't think I'll worry unduly about it.

 

 

Eventually costing far more than the original layout, and for what?

 

If this were so important the manufacturers would fit heaters.

 

I think the whole basis of this thread was that they do (albeit on Flicka's 'van as an optional extra.

 

There is one as standard on mine (and it was turned on at -6 in Wales last Sunday night). Don't know if the waste tank would have frozen otherwise, it drained OK, but I do know that there was a one inch thick sheet of ice on the roof the next morning (it doesn't shed rain well when level :-( but at least the roof insulation must be reasonable :-D )

[flicka]

When checking the Autocruise site the Heaters for the Fresh & Waste Tanks are fitted as standard on the Agusta & Oakmont models & an option on all their other Coachbuilts. They also show Insulated Fresh Water Tanks for their PVC models. (but guess they are internal anyway.)

The Swift site also shows them as options on the Coachbuilt models I looked at.

The "Winter Pack" is complete with both Tanks & Pipework Insulation & the Fridge covers.

Both quote the same price for the option, so I assume the Agusta & Oakmont standard fit will include the Tank & Pipework Insulation also.

 

Reading through this thread's responces & elsewhere, I now don't think the Legionella problem which was my main concern, will surface.

The Heaters will only be suitable for keeping frost damage at bay.

 

 

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

If I remember, you can drink legionella without harm, but you mustn't inhale it.  If you are going to use sites, as I guess you'll have to, (hook-up seeming a pre-requisite for maintaining a healthy battery state after a cold night), any risk of inhaling legionella can be simply avoided by using site showers.

Your fresh water tank is pretty well enclosed, legionella is mainly airborne, and the drinking water with which you initially fill your tank will be chlorinated, so can be presumed legionella free, and should stay so.

If you don't drink the water unless boiled, to avoid other viral or bacterial contaminants, + avoid cleaning teeth in it, and/or washing salad or fruit etc in it, I can't see why it should pose any health risks at all.

Just get a van with a decent in-board fresh water tank next time!  :-)

[flicka]

Thanks, Brian

But inboard tanks in small coachbuilts aren't compatable to me. (Unless they have a double floor).

 

Main reason for wanting to heat the Fresh Water Tank is to ensure we have a water supply for the toilet at all times.

 

Our primary concern was that if we get another winter like the last, the increased Wind Chill Factor whilst travelling would cause freezing problems & the Winter Pack would safeguard this.

That prompted the question regarding Legionella, but having read the previous posts I am sure the Heater will not increase the Water Temperature sufficiently to create an environment suitable for the Legionella bacteria.

[Travelling Tyke]

Hello Flicka, the wind chill factor will not affect the tanks final temp. It will not get any colder than surrounding temp. ( The wind chill factor is only really applicable as an indication of heat loss due to wind, ie, objects cool down quicker because of the wind - they do not get any colder than the surrounding temp. One point to consider....If any insulated pipe/tank freezes, it will take longer to thaw.

 

One other point worth mentioning, is the thermal conductivity of the pipes, connections etc. Any metal will allow the cold to get to the water quicker than plastic so that will be the area to pay attention to first.

 

One more point, whilst you are driving, the water in the tank is moving, this reduces the tendency to freeze so easily.

 

Hope this is usefull.