Hitch in getting van weight uprated

[candapack]

Firstly, I have a new Autotrail Apache 632 on what is described as a Fiat Ducato Light chassis.

Currently rated at 3650kg max weight, which should have given a payload of 455kg, which I assumed would be plenty. It's not. Either we take too much stuff, or the unladen weight is at least the full 3% allowable tolerance over the brochure figure. (I suspect the latter)

I got in touch with SV Tech, who said I could get an uprate to 3,850kg subject to having air suspension fitted. I then asked the garage I had been using for servicing and MOT work on a previous van, they wouldn't touch it and suggested using a Fiat commercial garage, so I contacted the nearest one to me from the Fiat Assistance booklet. After a couple of days, they have now responded saying they spoke to "Fiat Technical", who told them that under no circumstances should the suspension be altered in any way.

So where do I go from here, any thoughts?

(Apart from taking less stuff, I really don't think we can)

(And apart from changing vans)

 

[sheer lunar-see]

Get a bespoke trailer and fit a tow bracket ????????

 

[George Collings]

Then subtract the weight of towbar and the trailer noseweight ( the pressure of the hitch on the towball) including a multiplier due to rear overhang from the already minimal payload.

 

Suggest you talk to SV as I think in addition to the certification they also do the do the work but if not will advise who can.

[Billggski]

Fitters are now very wary of changing anything from standard because of insurance issues.

I can't get a second hand towbar fitted anywhere.

Luckily air assistance is quite easy, it just replaces the rubber "bump stops" under the springs. Some of the sellers on eBay offer a fitting service as well.

My light chassis fiat was rated at 3850k from new without alteration, but 225 section tyres would help with the rear axle load.

[Mike88]

People in general take far too much stuff with them. As a panel van fan we always limit our van content to the point where we would discuss virtually every item in detail. Many take loads of food for example and even travel with a full water tank and in this regard there is scope to reduce weight considerably.

 

There is always scope to take less even if owners don't want to. While a payload of 455 kgs is not great it should be more than ample for two people.

[Derek Uzzell]

The X290 Ducato ‘light’ camping-car chassis is rated by Fiat at 3650kg Maximum Technically Permissible Laden Mass (MTPLM), but many motorhome manufacturers will offer models built on this chassis with a 3500kg MTPLM as standard (for driving-licence entitlement reasons) with the option to ‘uprate’ back to 3650kg MTPLM. (I could have opted for a 3650kg MTPLM for my Rapido.)

 

As far as I’m aware Fiat does not offer this chassis with an MPTLM over 3650kg or will approve 3rd-party uprating beyond that figure.

 

Uprating beyond a vehicle manufacturer’s official MTPLM is certainly possible using a specialist like SVTech to carry out the paperwork/task and the DVLA are apparently happy with this type of exercise. However, it’s very likely that a vehicle manufacturer (in this case Fiat) if asked will refuse to authorise chassis MTPLM uprating and - as a consequence - that the vehicle’s warranty will be potentially affected.

 

[Brock]

I would strip the van down to its basics as much as possible. Remove all the bumf you carry around except for permanent attached accessories. Get the van weighed in its lightest form and build up the weight by adding items and using the SVTech guide on weight and distribution [on their website].

 

Then I would then speak to VB Air Suspension because they provided me with impartial advice about my suspension issue [AlKo chassis]. Semi air suspension will increase your weight on the rear axle.

 

455kg payload for 2 people seems a lot to me! However, if you have special needs, enjoy certain sports, or tour for long periods etc, I can understand that its not that good. Our payload quoted by Hymer reduced by c220kg when the van was brought up to UK spec and I added extras.

 

A trailer is an option.

[tonyg3nwl]

Hi, it sounds like you will have to go on a serious diet !

 

Serious suggestions, what are the 10 heaviest items on board, are they absolutely necessary

 

if you travel empty of water you can lose close to 100 kilo. If you only half fill up with diesel, you can save weight.

 

Dont stock up with TINS of food, use packet dried stuff where possible, or eat out (needs a heavier wallet)

 

examine carefully your bedding, do you need it all( cuddle up closer at night ?)

 

Take smaller gas bottles.

 

Use lighter weight pots and pans, and avoid heavy crockery, leave best glassware at home.

 

 

Dont take the Tv, always empty waste water and loo before travelling.

 

at a risk of domestic ruffles, challenge the wardrobe contents, what can be left behind.

 

Reduce spare toolkit to absolute minimum, but get travel and breakdown cover.

 

Tonyg3nwl

 

 

any mods to the van suspension will add some weight however small, so chose carefully.

[rupert123]

Bit mystified by this and the garages reaction seems to show a complete lack of understanding of the work involved. Fitting air suspension is not even a very complicated DIY job and a quick internet search will show plenty of people who can do it. Have a look around am sure you can find someone close who will do it.

[starvin marvin]

sheer lunar-see - 2016-04-08 10:48 PM

 

Get a bespoke trailer and fit a tow bracket ????????

 

That's what every 2nd Frenchman seems to have. Are the French cops cracking down on overweight camping cars?

[Brian Kirby]

candapack - 2016-04-08 10:00 PM

 

Firstly, I have a new Autotrail Apache 632 on what is described as a Fiat Ducato Light chassis.

Currently rated at 3650kg max weight, which should have given a payload of 455kg, which I assumed would be plenty. It's not. ...............................

Chris, it seems you probably deducted the stated MIRO of 3,195kg from the MAM of 3,650kg to arrive at the payload as above. I just wonder if you missed the note regarding all tanks being empty in arriving at the published MIRO?

 

"¥ Mass in Running Order (MRO): The Mass in Running Order (MRO) is the mass of the empty vehicle including a 75kg allowance for the driver, the Diesel tank full and an LPG cylinder full. The MRO is calculated with the freshwater tank empty on all models and with one 13kg LPG cylinder. Should you choose to travel with water in your freshwater tank, or an additional LPG cylinder, then the MRO figure must be adjusted accordingly."

 

Fill you water tank, and bang goes 135kg of that payload! I think this is profoundly dishonest presentation in that the underlying assumption is that you will need no water en-route, and will fill on arrival at every location emptying again on departure. Hardly consistent with a touring vehicle!

 

Apart from sympathising over your discovery, I would strongly suggest that you take the fully laden van to a weighbridge again (I assume you've already weighed it once), and check whether either axle is close to its stated limit of 1,850kg front and 2,000kg rear. SV tech's offer to take the van up to 3,850kg seems only to add the front axle maximum to the rear axle maximum, resulting in an MAM it is almost impossible to achieve in practise without one or other of the axles first becoming overloaded.

 

Personally I wouldn't bother, as I doubt the gain would be usable, but also because you would then be running the vehicle heavier than Fiat's engineers contemplated, meaning that in addition to the chassis itself, the running gear, engine and transmission are all working beyond their design parameters. Above all, I would definitely not do this while any warranties remain in force.

 

I think you have little practical choice but to go on that diet, or else change the van for one with a higher payload, calculated with a full water tank: I would suggest aiming in the region of 700kg.

 

If you take the latter course, do be aware that these qualifications to the prescribed method of calculating payload are now very widespread. You need to read the technical notes very critically to spot where they are drawing a veil over what should be clear.

[Derek Uzzell]

rupert123 - 2016-04-09 11:40 AM

 

Bit mystified by this and the garages reaction seems to show a complete lack of understanding of the work involved. Fitting air suspension is not even a very complicated DIY job and a quick internet search will show plenty of people who can do it. Have a look around am sure you can find someone close who will do it.

 

This isn’t really about going through the uprating to 3850kg MTPLM ‘paperwork’ process via a company like SVTech or following their advice to add rear-axle air assistance. It’s about Chris (candapack) contacting a garage in the Fiat Assistance booklet that, in turn, spoke to Fiat Technical who told them that they should not carry out the ‘mechanical’ work.

 

Forum members may recall the unfortunate case where a new Fiat-based motorhome had an MTPLM that was significantly less than what the vehicle’s advertising brochure suggested it should be. The consequence was that there was very little usable payload. The motorhome manufacturer’s UK agent suggested that all that was needed to provide increased payload was a simple paper exercise, but Fiat would not authorise that approach.

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Buyer-beware/17385/

 

Uprating Chris’s Apache 632 to 3850kg MTPLM would be viewed by Fiat as an 'unauthorised modification’ and, as a result, this could invalidate the warranty. This doesn’t prevent Chris from uprating the motorhome’s MTPLM to 3850kg and/or going down the air-assistance route (as you say, it shoud be straightforward to add a rear-axle air-bellows system and plenty of companies would be prepared to do it for anyone not wishing to DIY the task) It just means that Chris would need to accept that Fiat would not authorise the uprating procedure and understand the implications of that.

[Brian Kirby]

Derek Uzzell - 2016-04-09 3:14 PM

 

rupert123 - 2016-04-09 11:40 AM

 

Bit mystified by this and the garages reaction seems to show a complete lack of understanding of the work involved. Fitting air suspension is not even a very complicated DIY job and a quick internet search will show plenty of people who can do it. Have a look around am sure you can find someone close who will do it.

 

..............................................

Uprating Chris’s Apache 632 to 3850kg MTPLM would be viewed by Fiat as an 'unauthorised modification’ and, as a result, this could invalidate the warranty. This doesn’t prevent Chris from uprating the motorhome’s MTPLM to 3850kg and/or going down the air-assistance route (as you say, it shoud be straightforward to add a rear-axle air-bellows system and plenty of companies would be prepared to do it for anyone not wishing to DIY the task) It just means that Chris would need to accept that Fiat would not authorise the uprating procedure and understand the implications of that.

However, unless the bellows would also uprate the maximum load for the rear axle (which doesn't appear, subject to Chris's confirmation, to be on offer), the uprating of the MAM from 3,650kg to 3,850kg is unlikely to be of much practical value. Chris needs to check the present axle loads in fully laden condition (I would suggest with full water, even if that means knowingly driving overloaded to the weighbridge) with everyone and everything on board, to see how much leeway he has on the axles.

 

If, under that load condition, both axles are OK and only the MAM is exceeded, then the uprating to 3,850kg would put him in the clear legally. However, as Derek has already said, the Fiat warranty`would most probably be invalidated, as may aspects of AutoTrail's warranty.

 

If SV Tech are proposing to also uprate the plated rear axle load to get to 3,850kg (which isn't so far clear) then, I would imagine, based on what has been said so far, that Fiat would definitely wash their hands of their warranty liabilities the moment they became aware of the change. Simply sticking in air assistance doesn't result in an automatic uprating of the plated maximum load. The plated maximum can only be altered by a person qualified to do so, assuming such work can still be undertaken on a type approved vehicle - which Chris's new AutoTrail will be. All this needs checking.

 

I agree that the process is relatively clear and simple: it is the potential consequences of having it done that I'm urging Chris to investigate further before he acts. IMO, this is less a case of can it be done, than of should it be done.

[rupert123]

Brian Kirby - 2016-04-09 4:22 PM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2016-04-09 3:14 PM

 

rupert123 - 2016-04-09 11:40 AM

 

Bit mystified by this and the garages reaction seems to show a complete lack of understanding of the work involved. Fitting air suspension is not even a very complicated DIY job and a quick internet search will show plenty of people who can do it. Have a look around am sure you can find someone close who will do it.

 

..............................................

Uprating Chris’s Apache 632 to 3850kg MTPLM would be viewed by Fiat as an 'unauthorised modification’ and, as a result, this could invalidate the warranty. This doesn’t prevent Chris from uprating the motorhome’s MTPLM to 3850kg and/or going down the air-assistance route (as you say, it shoud be straightforward to add a rear-axle air-bellows system and plenty of companies would be prepared to do it for anyone not wishing to DIY the task) It just means that Chris would need to accept that Fiat would not authorise the uprating procedure and understand the implications of that.

However, unless the bellows would also uprate the maximum load for the rear axle (which doesn't appear, subject to Chris's confirmation, to be on offer), the uprating of the MAM from 3,650kg to 3,850kg is unlikely to be of much practical value. Chris needs to check the present axle loads in fully laden condition (I would suggest with full water, even if that means knowingly driving overloaded to the weighbridge) with everyone and everything on board, to see how much leeway he has on the axles.

 

If, under that load condition, both axles are OK and only the MAM is exceeded, then the uprating to 3,850kg would put him in the clear legally. However, as Derek has already said, the Fiat warranty`would most probably be invalidated, as may aspects of AutoTrail's warranty.

 

If SV Tech are proposing to also uprate the plated rear axle load to get to 3,850kg (which isn't so far clear) then, I would imagine, based on what has been said so far, that Fiat would definitely wash their hands of their warranty liabilities the moment they became aware of the change. Simply sticking in air assistance doesn't result in an automatic uprating of the plated maximum load. The plated maximum can only be altered by a person qualified to do so, assuming such work can still be undertaken on a type approved vehicle - which Chris's new AutoTrail will be. All this needs checking.

 

I agree that the process is relatively clear and simple: it is the potential consequences of having it done that I'm urging Chris to investigate further before he acts. IMO, this is less a case of can it be done, than of should it be done.

I have uprated one van and enquired about another. The one I did not bother with was because, as you suggest, it only uprated the MAM, as I carry a scooter only rear axle load is of interest. The other gave me an additional 100kgs on the rear axle so I went ahead, however I would agree it looks as if only the MAM would get uprated in this case and not the individual axle loads. It is up to the poster to decide if he can work within these limits and balance his load. Personally I cannot see how it would effect Auto Trails warranty in any way, Fiat may object if anyone noticed but how likely is that,, OK if the rear suspension fails, unlikely as it is certainly over engineered and in any case the rear axle should not be overloaded beyond Fiats maximum if only overall MAM is effected.

[Brian Kirby]

Don't want to prolong this Henry, but whether or not Fiats, or AT's, warranties are affected will be something they, and they alone, will decide - irrespective of what you or I may think reasonable.

 

That is why I'm urging Chris to check in exactly what position he would place himself post upgrading. Any increase in MAM beyond 3,650kg, which is as far as Fiat go, would exceed the design parameters Fiat have set for this chassis. On that basis, I'm not convinced that only the rear axle would be excluded from warranty. A claim on any part of the transmission and power train could be rejected on the ground that the vehicle had been run heavier than specified (otherwise, why re-plate to a higher figure). I'm not saying would, just could.

 

This is about risk, and the cost consequences of accepting the risk. Chris may not give a fig for the cost consequences, in which case I'm perfectly happy: that would be his decision. Or, he may not wish to prejudice the warranty, in which case I assume he will at least check where he may stand before he goes ahead, and act accordingly.

 

This is a new van that cost about £K50 on the road, part of which price reflects the risk cost to Fiat and AT of their warranties. Most vans don't have major problems, but some do. I'd feel very stupid if I found I'd voided a warranty I'd in effect paid for, on top of paying extra to get a higher payload, leaving me to pay for repairs that, but for my actions, would have been repaired at the manufacturer's expense.

 

You're right, it is possible no-one would spot the change and no query would be raised. But, that just goes back to one's approach to risk, and how lucky one is feeling.

[candapack]

Thanks to all. Given the potential effect on warranty, and possibly insurance I suppose, it looks like a diet it will have to be.

I'll break it to OH gently, she does like her Magnums.

Thanks again.

[Billggski]

It seems odd that the x250 light chassis can be sold at 3850k, as mine was advertised and plated at, but the X290 is limited to 3650k.

What changed?

[candapack]

I had not seen some of the more recent posts when I replied. SV Tech did also say that the uprate to 3850kg would also include increasing the rear axle load to 2240kg.

However, my attitude to risk is cautious, and I give more than a fig for the cost implications of voiding a warranty, so I do not think I am likely to proceed. I am pretty sure SV Tech must have come across this before, and I will be interested to see what they have to say. I will also take the empty van to a (different) weighbridge to find out what my payload actually is. Then I can individually weigh everything that gets put in, starting withe the essentials, eg wife, dog, bikes and rack. Some water, a motorhome with absolutely no fresh water is a daft concept. Then I can hopefully work my way down to less essential items that can be left behind.

OR, I can persuade my wife that we need to change a 5 month old van.

I'll just go and get her a Magnum from the freezer. :-D

Thanks all again.

 

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Billggski - 2016-04-09 8:28 PM

 

It seems odd that the x250 light chassis can be sold at 3850k, as mine was advertised and plated at, but the X290 is limited to 3650k.

What changed?

 

You own a pre-2013 Dethleffs Advantage 5881 motorhome.

 

Its ‘standard' MTPLM would be 3500kg but uprating to 3850kg was offered by Dethleffs for new vehicles. For markets where driving-licence entitlement conventions inhibited many buyers from driving vehicles over 3500kg MTPLM (eg. France) a 5881 would normally be sold at 3500kg MTPLM, but for markets where it was much more common for buyers to have an ‘over-3500kg’ driving-licence entiltlement (eg. the UK) a 5881 might well have normally been sold at 3850kg MTPLM to provide improved payload.

 

The same is true today. The following link

 

http://www.dethleffs.co.uk/fileadmin/user_upload/dethleffs/uk/Downloads/technical_data/Moca_GB_Advantagee_2016.pdf

 

shows current Dethleffs Advantage Ducato X290-based models’ technical specification. It will be seen that low-provile Advantage models all have a maximum authorised weigt of 3499kg with a “Weight upgrade to 3850kg” option.

 

So motorhomes based on a Fiat Ducato X290 ‘light’ camping-car chassis clearly CAN be obtained with a MTPLM of 3850kg and it’s reasonable to assume that Fiat is comfortable with Dethleffs marketing conversions with a 3850kg MTPLM and using that chassis.

 

But Auto-Trail does not offer a 3850kg MTPLM option for the Apache 632. A buyer’s choices are 3500kg MTPLM as standard or a free-of-charge ‘upgrade’ to 3650kg.

 

http://www.auto-trail.co.uk/model/apache/632/technical-features

 

France has a peculiar driving-licence loophole that allows people who obtained an ordinary Category B (car) entitlement before 1975 to drive a motorhome with an unlimited MTPLM.

 

http://www.camping-car-club-sud.com/74+le-permis-pour-cc-poids-lourd.html

 

There was a letter in one of the French motorhome magazines asking about the legality of uprating a motorhome beyond its original MTPLM to gain extra payload. The advice given was that this would only be acceptable if there were already an exactly-matching version of the motohome with the higher MTPLM. So (purely as examples) in France it would be acceptable to uprate an Auto-Trail Apache 632 or a Dethleffs Advantage T6601 having a 3500kg MTPLM to 3650kg and 3850kg respectively, but not to uprate the Apache to 3850kg because this is not an Auto-Trail option.

 

Presumably Fiat might take a similar stance in the UK and be prepared to approve a near-new 3500kg MTPLM Dethleffs Advantage T6601 being uprated to 3850kg (as it’s a Dethleffs option), but not a 3850kg T6601 being uprated further by, say, adding air-assistance/larger tyres (because that’s not a Dethleffs option).

 

In Chris’s case the stumbling-block is SVTech’s advice that air-assistance would be needed to take the Apache 632 from 3650kg to 3850kg and Fiat saying they will not approve that suspension modification.

[Robinhood]

...the German version of the pricelist makes it explicit that the 3850kg upgrade is available on the light chassis (though I'm sure that Bill had no doubts anyway.

 

I would expect that someone like Goldschmitt would be involved, with Dethleffs factory fitting uprated, but conventional springs (other options are available).

 

Such will have gone through the TüV approval process in Germany, and therefore be recognised (at least by the authorities, and, given the different nature of the market in Germany, probably also by Fiat.

 

The details of (some of) the options are set out here:

 

http://www.promobil.de/ratgeber/wohnmobil-fahrwerke-optimieren-so-klappts-auch-mit-der-auflastung-3862674.html

 

 

[Billggski]

On my original 2009 specification sheet my A5881 was listed at 3850k as standard. On the light chassis.

As far as I am aware there were no modifications, although the plate states 1850k front and 2000k rear, so it is is an absolute, carefully balanced maximum.

[Brian Kirby]

Just curiosity, Bill, but can you say what your fully laden axle weights are (worst case), and whether you run with the water tank full?

[yoko8pups]

[

 

France has a peculiar driving-licence loophole that allows people who obtained an ordinary Category B (car) entitlement before 1975 to drive a motorhome with an unlimited MTPLM.

 

http://www.camping-car-club-sud.com/74+le-permis-pour-cc-poids-lourd.html

 

 

 

Portugal has a similar law allowing any B1 licence to drive a motorhome up to 4250. Do you think that French people with their pre '75 concession can drive outside France? I have a Portuguese licence which allows 4250 and have asked the Spanish consulate and they say we can drive in Spain. I had 7500 in the Uk but lost it when I changed licences to comply with Portuguese law . I'm not yet 70.

 

[Derek Uzzell]

yoko8pups - 2016-04-10 4:33 PM

 

 

...Do you think that French people with their pre '75 concession can drive outside France?...

 

 

Yes, a French national holding a “B” driving-licence entitlement with the ‘Code 79’ addition can legally drive a (llterally) unlimited-weight camping-car in any EU country.

 

Apparently Norway (not in the EU) initially refused to recognise the French Code 79 add-on, but now does.

 

http://www.ffaccc.fr/actualites-fiche/Code-79-en-NORVEGE/001889

 

Dunno about other European non-EU countries.

[Derek Uzzell]

yoko8pups - 2016-04-10 4:33 PM

 

...Portugal has a similar law allowing any B1 licence to drive a motorhome up to 4250...

 

Purely out of curiosity I decided to take a look at this slightly odd Portugese law.

 

Organisations connected with motorcaravanning have lobbied strongly in the past for a special extension of the basic “B” car driving-licence entitlement to cover 'recreational vehicles’ having a MTPLM up to 4250kg. The argument put forward was on the lines of the existing “B” entitlement permitting the driving of a 3500kg MTPLM motorhome towing a 750kg unbraked trailer, so what’s the difference between that and driving a 4250kg MTPLM motorhome without the trailer?

 

After the last (2011?) exercise that set out to ‘normalise’ driving-licensing within the EU it was fairly widely reported that the recommendations that had emerged permitted driving a 4250kg MTPLM leisure-vehicle on a “B” licence (not a “B1” entitlement as this relates to ultra-light 4-wheel vehicles like quad-bikes). However, a closer look at the wording of the relevant text established that this was not the case.

 

However (it seems that) the EU recommendations had been badly translated into Portuguese and the Portuguese authorities just 'cut-and-pasted' the recommendations directly into Portuguese law without correcting the translation anomalies. Apparently the result permitted driving a 4250kg motorhome on a “B” licence, but also had the potential to impact negatively on the weight of a caravan that could legally be towed.

 

In the same way that a French driver holding a “B” + Code 79 driving-licence entitlement can legally drive (say) a 10-tonne MTPLM motorhome in any EU country, a Portuguese driver holding a “B” driving-licence entitlement should be able to legally drive a 4250kg MTPLM motorhome in any EU country.