StuartO Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 As I understand it pressure vessels like refillable gas bottles need testing every ten years to check that they are still safe to continue using. I remember from my diving days that compressed air bottles were tested by emptying, removing the valves, filling with water and then pressuring to a substantially higher pressure than their working pressure - and if they didn't burst they could be re-stamped and go back into service. Pressurising them with liquid inside ensured that if they do burst they simply split rather than explode. Presumably something similar applies to to re-fillable gas bottles. (Although of course LPG bottles only operate at 12 bar, compared with over 200 bar for diving bottles.) Mine are now nine years old. They were fitted by Peter Hambildon and carry no brand markings but I think they are the same manufacturer as Gas-It bottles, who have become the main retailers of them in UK. To get the bottles into the MH's gas locker Peter cut the top collars down a bit, so I suspect no-one will be happy to exchange them but they are still in good condition, so re-testing would appear to be the way to go. Has anyone had expereince of getting their own gas bottles re-tested? Where do you take them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hallii Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 I will be in the same position in a couple of years, I think testing will not be cheap, I did a search and came up with http://gascylindersuk.co.uk/index.php who do testing. Might be worth a phone call? Let us know how you get on, there must be many installations approaching the ten year mark now. I will say that LPG cylinders in our lockers have a very easy life, kept dry and out of the extremes of temperature change, not knocked about or used to support a digger while they changed the wheel (yes, I saw that being done in Spain!). If it's very expensive I might just take the risk and leave it for a couple of years over. "Well punk, do you feel lucky?" "Well. yes. as a matter of fact I do!" H EDIT :- I am aware that the cylinders can rust inside, but not much, there no air so no oxygen so no rust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikejkay Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 Why not try a dive shop? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted February 27, 2015 Author Share Posted February 27, 2015 I have rung a few people already but no luck so far. I agree about gas bottles leading a sheltered life and of course the presure in them is relatovely low at 12 bar, but presumably that's reflected in the way they are manufactured. I also agree that leaving ot for a couple of years isn't going to bring the world to a halt but it will be interesting to learn if anyone has already travelled this road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Bulgaria Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 How does the cost of testing and recertification compare with buying a new refillable bottle? I guess if the difference is small a new bottle may be a simpler answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgnbuk Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 I'm not certain of the requalification interval & it seems rather difficult to find definative information as there appears to have been a change in cylinder standards. There seem to be two different Gaslow cylinder types - I have the "original" type & am pretty certain that these were sold with a 15 year guarantee (infering to me a 15 year cylinder life). The current "R67 standard" cylinders are different & the following appears on the Gaslow website : "After 10 years you must return your cylinder to a Gaslow dealer who will exchange it and charge a replacement fee." "Exchange" could be taken to mean that 10 year old cylinders are refurbished, re-tested & given in exchange for time expired cylinders. Or it could just be a way of getting old cylinders out of circulation for safe disposal & a new cylinder is issued in exchange. I run an LPG converted car & was told that the tank valve set must be changed at 10 years old & the tank pressure tested at 15 years old, but that nobody bothered with re-testing as it cost as much as or more than a new tank to re-test. I don't expect to still have the car at that point, so am not particularly concerned. With my Gaslow cylinder, I considered that I was buying a "system" with a 15 year life. Again, I don't expect that I will still own the cylinder when this life expires, but should that happen I would most likely dump it & buy a new replacement - in the greater scheme of things not too expensive (less than £10 per year of use). Given your situation, requalification may be the best bet if you can find someone to do it - maybe have a word with an Autogas converter to see if they know of someone who tests flammable gas cylinders? You may find that there is a requirement to exchange the valve set as with autogas tanks, in which case I suspect that is unlikely that a a diving supply outfit would be able to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 When I (briefly) discussed LPG-bottle recertification with a Gaslow representative at the recent NEC Show, I was told that this was required after 5 years for composite bottles (which conflicts with the 10-year period advised in the Safefill website’s FAQ section) and after 10 years for metal bottles. In this earlier thread http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Hints-and-Tips/Is-fitting-a-Gaslow-system-a-good-idea-/37405/ I said "The current Gaslow R67 bottles (made in Italy) have a 10-year warranty and Gaslow’s advice is "After 10 years you must return your cylinder to a Gaslow dealer who will exchange it and charge a replacement fee.” The earlier design of bottle (made in Portugal and not advertised on Gaslow’s 2015 price-list) evidently had a 15-year warranty that is mentioned in this 2012 Gaslow file http://www.gaslow.co.uk/pdf/Filling-Instructions-2012.pdf There’s a drawing in the file that should allow you to identify your bottles’ date of manufacture, and Gaslow’s related advice was "Your cylinders are manufactured to European Standard EN1442 and each one has its own unique certificate and identification stamped into the bottom foot shroud of the cylinder. IMPORTANT: Please note the retest date which, on the above example is 2019. This cylinder MUST be returned to your local dealer or contact us direct to exchange the cylinder for a new one during that year as it shows that our 15 year warranty has run out.” Although a bottle-replacement fee is chargeable for exchanging R67 bottles when they reach 10 years of age, no exchange-fee was mentioned regarding the earlier cylinders. When you find out what Gaslow’s present policy is regarding their older bottles (some must have reached 15 years of age by now) it would be helpful if you would post that information here, please.” It would seem from the following links http://www.lpgasmagazine.co.uk/testing-the-lpg-cylinder-requalification-extension/ http://www.dft.gov.uk/vca/additional/files/dangerous-goods/newsletters/lpgapplication.pdf that the position as far as the 15-year recertification period is concerned may be more complicated when user-refillable bottles rather than exchange-only bottles (eg. Calor containers) are involved. This might explain why Gaslow now provides a 10-year warranty rather than a 15-year one. If StuartO’s bottles are ‘4-hole’ type http://www.gasit.co.uk/index.php?_a=product&product_id=9 there’s a good chance they were made by STAKO. If they are ‘2-hole’ type http://www.gasit.co.uk/index.php?_a=product&product_id=484 they probably were not. GAS-IT and/or Autogas 2000 should be able to comment on user-refillable-bottle recertification, and advise on whether it would be practicable (or make financial sense) for users to have their bottles recertified and, if so, by whom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted February 28, 2015 Author Share Posted February 28, 2015 I think my bottles probably are made by Stako, although I would have to ask Peter Hambildon to be sure. The MH is going to him for a habitation service next month so i will ask. The pigtails also presumably have a life. I'm hoping to have a new Truma CS regulator (with inbuilt crash protection) and a Truma Remote Gas Switch fitted while the MH is there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted February 28, 2015 Author Share Posted February 28, 2015 Interesting to read from the link on the Gas-It website which Derek provided: http://www.gasit.co.uk/index.php?_a=product&product_id=9 That their four hole bottles have a built in full flow shut off valve, so that if a pigtail bursts the escaping gas would be stopped. And these has been fitted to the Stako bottles which Gas-It sell since 1991, which will therefore hopefully cover my Stako bottles, of 2006 vintage. Have we established yet how often gas bottles need testing or is that still uncertain? I think an expiry rather than a testing date is stamped into the neck, so maybe I should have a close look! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 mikejkay - 2015-02-27 3:54 PM Why not try a dive shop? I get my 300bar airgun and works undercarriage cylinders tested at a dive shop, but I've heard of some getting a bit arsey about testing non dive cylnders. p.s. for testing of propane cylinders go to last bit on page. http://www.bestfittings.co.uk/shopcontent.asp?type=Cylinder%20Information Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted February 28, 2015 Author Share Posted February 28, 2015 It turns out that the Vehicle Certification Agency (VCA) is responsible for regulation of LPG cylinder testing and I found this page on the VCA website: http://www.dft.gov.uk/vca/dangerousgoods/lpg-cylinders.asp which says: LPG Cylinders Steel cylinders used for LPG must be periodically inspected and tested to ensure they remain safe and fit for purpose. Normally, the maximum interval between inspections is 10 years and this is set by the International Agreement for the Carriage of Dangerous Goods by Road (ADR). Since 2011, ADR has allowed the competent authority to authorise the interval to be extended to 15 years providing certain conditions are met. Cylinders so authorised may be marked P15Y. A transitional provision permits previous arrangements to continue until 1st January 2015. The VCA Dangerous Goods Office (VCA) operates a scheme on behalf of the competent authority to authorise extended inspection intervals for LPG cylinders which are used exclusively in Great Britain. The VCA scheme is available now to GB companies wishing to comply with the provisions of ADR Packing Instruction P200 (10) in advance of the end of the transitional period. This will be the only means by which inspection intervals may be extended for new steel cylinders placed into service from the 1st January 2015. So the testing interval is 10 years, extendable to 15 years if the cylinder is used only in UK, providing the cylinder has been appropriately marked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Earlier in this thread I provided a link to the VCA’s guidance document. The problem (as I see it) is that the “certain conditions” that need to be met regarding the 15-year interval can be complied with by companies like Calor that control the supply, refilling and periodic examination of their LPG cylinders. But it’s another matter with LPG cylinders that are purchased for user-refilling, when there’s no certainty how the cylinders will be treated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted March 1, 2015 Author Share Posted March 1, 2015 The practicalities of retestingrefillable LPG bottles at ten years will make for logistic difficulties so companies like Gaslow and GasIt will presumably decide that it isn't worthwhile for them to offer that service and instead offer replace with new, maybe with a discount for the return of your old bottles, as Gaslow are already doing. As users of these bottles, we either scratch around to find a re-tester, replace at ten years anyway (as we should also do our tyres) or decide there is minimal risk of our cylinders ever failing and plead ignorance if we get caught - which at the moment it seems pretty unlikely that we ever would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 StuartO You might want to ask Gaslow what actually happens when the 15-year waranty relating to their old-style bottles expires, and what the replacement fee is nowadays. I’ve always been aware of what Gaslow say should happen, but I’ve never read/heard of anyone exchanging a Gaslow botlle after 15 years. I’ve seen it suggested that the replacement may be a brand-new or a ‘refurbished’ bottle, but I believe that’s just speculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted March 2, 2015 Author Share Posted March 2, 2015 My interest in this topic arose for that reason - has anyone actually exchanged bottles because they are due for testing? I'm probably unusual in having kept the same (new) Motorhome for nine years so that I need to face the issue. Dealers often remove accessories from used MHs before sale (leaving those who buy them to re-purchase) so I expect some ageing re-fillables will disappear that way. It will be interesting to hear what Peter Hambildon has to say when I take my MH in for a habitation survey next month. I fear it will be that there is no system for retesting, so it's up to me to decide whether to replace the bottles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJP Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 When we had our refillables fitted we were told 10 years on fitted bottles (MTH Autogas) and the 15 year only applied to RENTAL bottles as they would be inspected at the point of refill by Calor/BP/ANO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 That appears to be at odds with the advice on this Gaslow 2012 file http://www.gaslow.co.uk/pdf/Filling-Instructions-2012.pdf MTH Autogas was mentioned when I was talking to a Gaslow rep at the NEC Show. Both of us had known Richard Cecil (now living in Portugal apparently) who set up the MTHA company and we briefly discussed the recertification of the MTHA bottles. Let’s just say that I’d treat recertification-related advice provided by MTH Autogas with a degree of caution... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteH Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Hi As a now (15+yrs) retired Pressure Vessel examiner. I can tell you that the STATUTORY period for the re-examination of static tanks is every 10 years. (these are the vessels in Factories and in peoples back yards) This is not strictly because they are too prone to corrosion but the Pressure cycling and Thermal cycling can (and has) caused issues with the welded seams. I can, from experience, also tell you that virtually ALL the LPG vessels on American R-Vs have NEVER been examined!!!. Some get a quick "look see" with an endoscope IF the Filling valve jambs and has to be changed!! I used to examine both Static and the large Road Tankers For the Calor company on behalf of their Insurers for many years. An example of just How robust these are; One Calor Road tanker in the 1980`s overturned on the long hill on the M5 approaching Bristol, it slid on it`s side for an estimated 200yards, and produced a long scar in the outer shell. I and another surveyor examined it, did extensive NDT on the welding etc; supervised the Grinding out of the scrape on the exterior and polishing to remove "Notches". The vessel was repainted and went back into service with Full certification. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted March 27, 2015 Author Share Posted March 27, 2015 Interesting information, but does it take us any further with the original question, about when and how ro get re-fillable LPG bottles tested? These bottles are presumably manufactured with considerable reserve capacity to withstand damage and corrosion, but the law does seem to require periodic testing, yet there is no practical way to get them tested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteH Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Hi Stuart. I do not think there is a Mandatory re-inspection date. And you are correct in that there appears to be NO ONE who will undertake the work. As per my previous Post the only requirement is for BULK tanks in industrial environments for any Statutory examination. I could suggest that you write to one of the Examination Authorities but it is my opinion that they would not undertake such an examination. And from my experience, IF they did would charge far more than the vessel is worth. Back in 1997 when I retired. they charged out my time at £167-00 per hour PLUS VAT!! http://www.lpgasmagazine.co.uk/pvs-offers-lpg-vessel-testing/ Are the only people I can Find on-line. Sorry to be a "wet blanket" on this one. If your endeavours do turn up some (one/Company) prepared to test vessels of this size and type I too would be interested to hear of them? Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted March 27, 2015 Author Share Posted March 27, 2015 I'm not losing any sleep over this but it's interesting, is it not, that there is an expectation of safety inspection of all rented lpg bottles, by the renting companies, and nothing for privately owned bottles. Because lpg bottles operate at relatively low pressure (12 bar) and my bottles have led a very sheltered life, not I can't see them being at substantial risk, so I'll wait until authority raises the matter of testing with me. The MH is also going in for a habitation service shortly, so I'll ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 You may find this list of BODIES APPOINTED TO INSPECT PRESSURE EQUIPMENT IN THE UK http://www.dft.gov.uk/vca/additional/files/dangerous-goods/conformity-assessment-bodies/pressure-equip-inspection-bodie.pdf useful if you are trying to find somewhere to test a cylinder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteH Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Hi Interesting link. My old employers (or more accurately those who took them over) are shown too. I must admit that I have never heard of one being the subject of explosion or even a leakage due to vessel failure and or rupture. There have been failures resulting from outside influences eg; Fire and over-pressurisation. Or physical external damage eg; rupture in an accident. In the greater scheme of things these vessels if treated with respect, kept free from external corrosion and pitting, and protected from physical damaged SHOULD last far far past any "Use by" date. IMHO The testing carried out as a new vessel would show up any weakness in manufacture. and of course the likes of Calor et al all check and periodically test their own vessels routinely. as and when they are returned for refilling. Now AIR compressor tanks are a whole different ball game, as raging corrosion is often found in relatively NEW vessels, due to their internal working environment. Oxygen plus moisture is not exactly a good combination??? Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted April 1, 2015 Author Share Posted April 1, 2015 I took my MH for a Habitation Service to Peter Hambildon, who supplied and installed my two refillable gas bottles. I asked about pressure testing, because they are getting close to being ten years old, and he said that although in theory they need testing, no one in UK offers the testing service, so the choice is to replace them with new and throw them away, or inspect them, as he had done, and keep them because there is no indication of any problem. He added that while underslung tanks, not at all common now that refillable bottles have appeared, they would get splashed with water and road salt so they did need careful inspetion. But gas bottles in a gas locker were a different matter and unlikely to corrode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 I would have thought that underslung LPG tanks on motorhomes have become more common than less, as much as anything because companies like Auto-Sleepers have standardised on them for panel-van conversions to maximise interior space by dispensing with a gas locker. It’s internal corrosion that’s the potential problem with LPG containers and that cannot be detected by a visual inspection. This 2003 Caravan Club article may be of interest http://www.caravanclub.co.uk/caravanclubapps/media/18898/Practical%20Calor%20Gas%20Feb%2003.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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