Importing an Auto Trail Tracker Motorhome to Italy - Vehicle Details

[APN01]

I need to import my 2003 Ducato 2.0 JTD based Auto Trail Tracker motor home to Italy. The Italian authorities require some additional technical data which they state Auto Trail should provide. Auto Trail will only provide some very basic data which the Italian authorities view as inadequate. Neither will they liaise with the Italian authorities or FIAT or do anything else to try and resolve the issue. FIAT Italy state that Auto Trail are responsible for the provision of the data.

 

FIAT UK cannot help because evidently the vehicle was imported directly by Auto Trail from Italy. I would like more clarity around the provenance of the vehicle if possible. VIN plate details as follows:

 

FIAT AUTO SPA

DGM 54739 OM

ZFA244000 07213505

 

3000KG

4600KG

1 - 1600 KG

2 - 1650 KG

 

MOTORE RHV

VERSIONE 244AAMAB AXC

1.52

 

If anyone can help me out or give me any additional advice around importation I would really appreciate it. Grazie mille.

[weldted]

I would try going act to Auto Trail as they originally supplied the vehicle and should have I think proof of the COC to show it was fit for purpose. The fact you may not be the original owner should not matter. But I stand to be corrected,

[Derek Uzzell]

The potential stumbling-block in this instance is that APN01’s Auto-Trail Tracker is 2003 vintage and UK-built motorhomes did not need to be Type Approved until 2012. This was explained in this 2013 article

 

https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/motorhomes/articles/practical-advice/vehicle-type-approval-explained

 

Consequently, it’s most unlikely that the Tracker was Type Approved in 2003 and - if that’s the case - it won’t have a Type Approval Certificate of Conformity (CoC) and Auto-Trail won’t be in a position to provide a CoC for it in 2021.

 

Although the UK has procedures to deal with vehicles that are imported but are not Type Approved and/or have no CoC, it’s well known that importing a UK-built mototrhome to another European country can be difficult even when the vehicle has Type Approval and a CoC, and a nightmare if the vehicle is not Type Approved or the CoC cannot be obtained.

 

This link may help

 

https://www.angloinfo.com/how-to/italy/transport/vehicle-ownership/importing-a-car

 

[Keithl]

APN01 - 2021-06-30 10:08 AM

 

I need to import my 2003 Ducato 2.0 JTD based Auto Trail Tracker motor home to Italy. The Italian authorities require some additional technical data which they state Auto Trail should provide...

Exactly what 'additional technical data' do the Italian authorities require?

 

Someone may know a way to obtain this data without going through Fiat or Auto Trail.

 

Keith.

[Brian Kirby]

Is this a permanent import, or necessitated because you are temporarily living in Italy? I only ask as it is clearly proving a considerable headache, especially over the existence of a CoC which, for the reasons Derek points out above, will not exist. If the registration will not be permanent, and you intend returning to the UK with the van in future, then, if registration in Italy can be achieved, you will presumably have to re-register it back in UK on your return? Have you looked into whether this will be straightforward?

 

OTOH, if the registration is likely to be permanent, I'm prompted to wonder if it is worth the hassle. After all, you will be importing an 18 year old, RHD van into a country where LHD is the norm, the brand is not - so far as I know - represented (or particularly well known) so that, coupled with its exhaust emissions and the problems they will present in the growing number of areas with emissions control zones, its sale/trade-in value will be liable to be very low. Similar age trackers are currently on offer for sale in UK in the region of £K20, though will undoubtedly change hands for somewhat less.

 

Might it be easier, and possibly advantageous (assuming it is a practical possibility for you to do so), to sell in UK while prices are relatively high and Auto Trail is a well known and well reputed brand, and then buy a LHD replacement in Italy that is already registered? .I'm not familiar with prices in Italy but, as a generalisation, you get more van for your money buying in Europe than in UK. There is a good selection of brands present on the Italian market, so your choice would, arguably, be more extensive than in UK plus, should you decide to return, good LHD vans are much easier to sell in UK than I suspect is the case for RHD van in Italy.

 

Then, if you do decide to return to UK, you would start off with a van with a CoC, which should prove much simpler to import into UK than it is to import a a RHD van with no CoC into Italy. Apologies for going off topic, but on the face of it selling here and buying in Italy seems to present an easier solution than faces you at present. Having said that, I also accept that financial considerations may dictate otherwise!

[Derek Uzzell]

There’s further information here

 

https://www.propertyguides.com/italy/news/owning-car-italy/

 

including the advice "It is easier to buy an Italian car than to register your UK car”.

[StuartO]

This would be a good UK market to sell an Autotrail. Would it not make sense to do that and buy in Italy rather than struggling with bureaucracy to import a vehicle which will inevitably have v poor sale value in Italy?

[Derek Uzzell]

Although this link relates to importing a UK car to France

 

https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/Brexit/Brexit-Changes-when-bringing-a-UK-car-to-France

 

the Brexit-related factors mentioned may also have implications for Italy.

[APN01]

Thanks so much. Evidently, according to Auto Trail, in 2003 European Whole Vehicle Type Approval was not mandatory. It did not come into force until 2012 and without Type Approval we are unable to produce a formal Certificate of Conformity.

 

My frustration with the company is as much to do with a complacent and indifferent attitude to the issue. We established some months ago that a COC was not available for the vehicle and yet they continue to reference this documentation. They will not liaise with the Italian authorities or with any other Italian based motorhome constructor within the Trigano Group, or FIAT in the UK or Italy. An obvious solution would be to provide all the data they have for the vehicle on company documentation with a notation that this is all the data they hold. They will not.

 

In addition. Auto Trail state that FIAT should provide the data. FIAT state that Auto Trail should provide the data. The vehicle was evidently directly imported by Auto Trail from Italy and so FIAT UK will not help. I feel like I am running out of options.

[APN01]

Thank you. Indeed. This is Auto Trail's position. No Type Approval. No COC. They simply won't do anything else except provide some very basic data which the Italian authorities view as inadequate. No outside liaison with the Italian authorities, other manufacturers within the Trigano Group, FIAT either in the UK or Italy. They state that FIAT should provide the data. FIAT state that it should be Auto Trail. I think that I started this process in January and have emailed pretty much anyone I can think of both within and outside of government. No-one is interested. I seems simply inconceivable that you can't import a FIAT based UK motorhome into Italy. At this point apparently the case.

[APN01]

Hi. Thank you. A very good point. I have emailed the Italian authorities on a number of occasions for a specific list of date required and have had few replies. The last email had an English language COC attached for a FIAT Ducato with the notation that not all data would be available.

 

The Italian authorities accept that a COC is not available for the vehicle and - reading between the lines - want the COC to be used as a template to be populated with whatever data Auto Trail still hold for the vehicle.

 

FIAT UK note that in 2003 data requirements were minimal and so this should not be too hard for Auto Trail to produce. However, the company will do nothing beyond produce some very minimal data which the Italian authorities view as inadequate.

[APN01]

Thank you for the reply and link. Much appreciated.

[APN01]

Indeed. I have only recently become aware of the elevated values of motorhomes in the UK. However the vehicle has already been exported from the UK. And so I suppose getting it back to the UK and selling would involve trucking the vehicle and then re-importing. By which time the summer would be over I would have thought. Exporting was simply a matter of filling in a small part of the V5C and sending it to the DVLA. If I had only known.....

[APN01]

Hi Brian. Thanks so much for your extensive comments. In retrospect I agree with pretty much all you said. However, as noted elsewhere, the vehicle has already been exported from the UK and so getting it back would presumably mean trucking it back to the UK and then re-importing. By which time the summer could be a distant memory and who knows where we will be with the pandemic. It is a shame. £20000 was about what I paid for it in 2013.

 

Auto Trail themselves note that an owner of a 2004 vehicle had no issues importing the motor home into France with some very basic documentation and FIAT Italy told me that a UK motor home owner in Perugia got everything done within around 10 days regarding importation. Similar aged vehicle I believe. Having emailed the official beforehand I went to the Pisa office of the Ufficio Motorizzazione Civile yesterday to clarify the issue. He either wasn't there or wasn't available. He responds only sporadically to my emails.

 

So. The bottom line is that Auto Trail state that FIAT is responsible for the data. FIAT state that it is Auto Trail. The official at the UMC in Pisa will not supply a definitive list of data. Without the additional data the vehicle is effectively stranded on a campsite in Italy. I am really not sure what else I can do.

[Keithl]

APN01 - 2021-07-09 4:18 PM

 

Hi. Thank you. A very good point. I have emailed the Italian authorities on a number of occasions for a specific list of date required and have had few replies. The last email had an English language COC attached for a FIAT Ducato with the notation that not all data would be available.

 

The Italian authorities accept that a COC is not available for the vehicle and - reading between the lines - want the COC to be used as a template to be populated with whatever data Auto Trail still hold for the vehicle.

 

FIAT UK note that in 2003 data requirements were minimal and so this should not be too hard for Auto Trail to produce. However, the company will do nothing beyond produce some very minimal data which the Italian authorities view as inadequate.

Unfortunately I think your post here pretty well sums up your situation, you are asking AT and Fiat for information but you do not know what you are asking for! How can they answer a question which you have been unable to quantify?

 

You may find AT have already provided all the data they have for your Tracker from 2003, and I would imagine that data would be very limited as you have already found out.

 

If you can find out exactly what data the Italian authorities want there is a possibility someone else with a 2003 Fiat based MH (not necessarily AT) can help.

 

Keith.

[Brian Kirby]

APN01 - 2021-07-09 5:21 PM

Hi Brian. Thanks so much for your extensive comments. In retrospect I agree with pretty much all you said. However, as noted elsewhere, the vehicle has already been exported from the UK and so getting it back would presumably mean trucking it back to the UK and then re-importing. By which time the summer could be a distant memory and who knows where we will be with the pandemic. It is a shame. £20000 was about what I paid for it in 2013.

Auto Trail themselves note that an owner of a 2004 vehicle had no issues importing the motor home into France with some very basic documentation and FIAT Italy told me that a UK motor home owner in Perugia got everything done within around 10 days regarding importation. Similar aged vehicle I believe. Having emailed the official beforehand I went to the Pisa office of the Ufficio Motorizzazione Civile yesterday to clarify the issue. He either wasn't there or wasn't available. He responds only sporadically to my emails.

So. The bottom line is that Auto Trail state that FIAT is responsible for the data. FIAT state that it is Auto Trail. The official at the UMC in Pisa will not supply a definitive list of data. Without the additional data the vehicle is effectively stranded on a campsite in Italy. I am really not sure what else I can do.

Under EU Type Approval legislation motorhomes are vehicles that are finished in stages. Fiat merely provided to Auto Trail the base platform and mechanicals, so not a complete vehicle. In the process of converting the Fiat base into a finished motorhome, Auto Trail inevitably alter some of its characteristics, most obviously its aerodynamics and weight, with consequent affects on its fuel consumption and emissions. So any Fiat CoC (and there will have been one, but with only limited validity) is only valid up to the point of delivery to Auto Trail.

 

As you have said, Certificates of Conformity were not required under UK legislation until well after your van had been registered. Even when UK belatedly introduced Type Approval rules for motorhomes, we played a little fast and loose with the rules to declare that as motorhomes were low volume production vehicles they did not require re-testing for TA conformity certification (especially emissions), and so could be issued with CoCs that omitted the (post conversion) invalid exhaust emissions data, as a ruse to exclude motorhomes from emissions based VED.

 

At that same time Continental motorhome manufacturers were being delivered with fully valid CoCs for their vans (I have owned two such, imported before CoCs were required for UK registration), but these were not legally required in UK, so of no significance.

 

So, it is hardly Auto Trail's fault that they cannot now supply you with the data which the Italian authorities now need to register a non-certificated vehicle in Italy, any more than Fiat can now supply a CoC for a vehicle they did not complete. Even had your van been completed in the EU outside the UK it is extremely unlikely that you would have the original CoC, as most UK dealers seem to have binned these as superfluous until UK introduced Type Approval. The effect is that neither Auto Trail (a UK manufacturer, so exempt under UK legislation at the time it was first registered), nor Fiat, who cannot retrospectively certificate a vehicle they did not complete, can provide the full data set a valid CoC would have provided at the time it was first registered, and the official in Umbria cannot obtain what does not exist.

 

The reason others have apparently been able to register imports in France/Italy doubtless lies in differences between French/Italian registration requirement on the one hand, and between the registration requirements as applied in Perugia and Umbria on the other.

 

You say the van has been exported from UK. Was this by formal notification, or merely by default, on the basis of the time it has been outside the UK? I assume the van cannot therefore have valid UK tax, insurance, and MoT test, at present? If so, it seems, as you say, your only solution will be to get the vehicle transported to UK. This will inevitably be costly from half way down Italy. Do you still have any kind of breakdown recovery insurance for the van? If so, as they will have experience of this, they may be able to advise the sort of costs involved.

 

The long-shot is to try to contact the owner of the van imported into Perugia to find out what he had to provide, and how he got it. Possibly the Perugian UMC might be able to help with contact details - although data protection might prevent this. Otherwise, it seems to be a purely financial calculation. Is the realistic present sale value of the van, re-registered and tested in UK, greater than the cost of re-importation and transportation of the van back to UK, by sufficient margin to make it worthwhile, when the cost of scrappage in Italy is taken into account. All vehicles lose value over time, just not usually in that way! Good luck, whichever way it goes.

[mtravel]

I believe that Fiat is only an OEM supplier for recreational vehicle fitters.

I believe that the latter are delegated to compile and submit the COC for registration.

In fact, I don't see how Fiat can be responsible for what has been added to the basic mechanics.

Think just about weight and/or seats and safety belts.

 

As for re-registration in Italy, I think it is quite difficult.

Unless you contact some specialized agency (£££).

Personally I don't know any, I will try to do some research but if you don't read me again in a few days it means that I have not been successful.

 

One possibility could be to register it as a "unique exemplar" but I think this is difficult and expensive.

 

I know that some Italians who build their own van DIY from a used vehicle turn to German agencies.

These strike off the vehicle in the country of origin, import it to Germany where the procedures are more permissive, register it there and then re-import it to Italy with the German paperwors COC included.

Process quite expensive and time consuming.

 

Do not rely too much on a quick response from the Italian motorization.

The pandemic reduced the workforce plus they are overloaded, for example recently our government has introduced the mandatory MOT even for small trailers and there are very long waiting lists.

 

Max

[Brian Kirby]

mtravel - 2021-07-12 1:54 PM

I believe that Fiat is only an OEM supplier for recreational vehicle fitters.

I believe that the latter are delegated to compile and submit the COC for registration...............................Max

Massimo, the problem with the CoC is that there is not one, because at the time the van was built, the UK did not require motorhomes to be Type Approved, and hence none built in the UK before 2012 have them. It seems probable that the original Fiat chassis as supplied to Auto Trail will have had a CoC, but this will not represent the finished vehicle, so will not be valid for registration purposes.

 

The question that then arises, is whether there is a procedure within the Italian registration system that would permit a vehicle legally manufactured in 2003 within the EEC, but outside Italy, and without a CoC, to be imported into Italy today and registered for use on Italian roads. Logically, this must have been possible before 2012 (when UK motorhomes first came with CoCs). It seems it may be a matter of whether the authorities in Perugia used a procedure unique in Perugia, or whether the authorities in Umbria are simply unaware of the procedure that was used in Perugia.

 

If it were possible to clarify that point, the doors may suddenly swing open! :-)

[Derek Uzzell]

In one of my postings above I provided the following link

 

https://www.propertyguides.com/italy/news/owning-car-italy/

 

This includes the following section

 

Documents needed to register your car in Italy

 

Want to register your car in Italy if it’s imported and used? It must first pass a road worthiness test, like a MOT, to ensure it conforms to Italian technical norms. On passing this the vehicle will receive a certificate of conformity. All used cars in Italy must take a test (revisione) every two years. You will also need a technical specifications form, signed and stamped by the manufacturer or a reputable dealer (in Italian). Be aware that, in Italy, the engine power is measured in kilowatts, not horse power.

 

Car ownership documents and your UK registration cancellation certificate are also necessary. Usually, they will ask that your signature be verified with a certified signature from a notary, municipality or delegated employee of the Electronic Motorist Helpdesk (STA). Try the STA first, as a notary will charge you handsomely.

 

If the statement "You will also need a technical specifications form, signed and stamped by the manufacturer or a reputable dealer (IN ITALIAN)” is being considered as a ‘must-have’, it’s understandable that Auto-Trail won’t want to involve themselves with a 2003 motothomes that APN01 bought secondhand in 2013.

 

(Presumably Italy does have ways to register ‘foreign’ vehicles that have no technical documentation and their original manufacturer no longer exists. The manufacturers of plenty of UK-built cars and motorbikes (and of quite a few motorhomes) have disappeared, making contacting those companies impossible. Does that mean that such vehicles cannot be imported to Italy and registered there, or are there (complicated/expensive?) fall-back procedures that will allow registration to take place?)

 

 

[Hans]

There is only one solution I think. Contact a COP registered outfit unit. And they can provide a COC if all Matches the requirements . Like a classic car ro put on the road.

[APN01]

Hi Keith

 

Thank you for your comments. I forwarded a definitive list of data requirements from the Italian authorities to Auto Trail VR Ltd on 12 July. Auto Trail VR Ltd returned a partially completed list with the notation that they were awaiting further data from FIAT. On 22 July Auto Trail VR Ltd requested the VIN plate information which I forwarded immediately. On 16 August the Auto Trail VR Ltd Customer Services Manager emailed to the effect that FIAT UK do not have computer systems capable of returning data for my vehicle and that therefore he was unable to assist any further with my case.

 

Two points. In previous correspondence FIAT UK had clearly stated that as the base vehicle was a direct import from Italy they do not hold any data for the vehicle. And secondly, the Homologation Department within FIAT was able to interpret some of the VIN plate data pretty much straightaway and so provide some of the required information - something apparently Auto Trail VR Ltd were unable to do.

 

So. Based on updates from the FIAT Homologation Department the outstanding list is as follows:

 

To Be Confirmed By Auto Trail VR Ltd:

 

• International Vehicle Category. (FIAT note that this should be M1 for a motorhome but Auto Trail VR Ltd would need to confirm).

• Maximum Speed. (FIAT note that the maximum speed of the base vehicle is likely to be different to that of the completed motorhome).

 

Data Still Outstanding

 

• Engine Number

• Power (KW) in Revolutions

• Gearbox Gear Ratios

• Body Code

• Noise (DB per RPM)

• Emissions (NOX - Particulate - CO2) If Available

 

If anyone has any comments or suggestions around the outstanding data I would be very grateful. Otherwise the vehicle is stranded in Italy or would need to be shipped back and re-imported to the UK. Financially beyond my reach.

 

Much appreciated.

Andrew

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Data Still Outstanding

 

- Engine Number

- Power (KW) in Revolutions

- Gearbox Gear Ratios

- Body Code

- Noise (DB per RPM)

- Emissions (NOX - Particulate - CO2) If Available

 

The engine number will be on the engine block (though may not be too easy to locate).

 

The quoted power output of a 2.0JTD motor is 62KW (84HP) at 4000rpm.

 

As the Fiat Ducato on which your motorhome is based would have been sold to Auto-Trail as a chassis-cab with no rear bodywork, I don’t really know what the “Body Code” datum is supposed to apply to.

 

Noise-related data won’t have been available in 2003 for the ‘bare’ chassis-cab Fiat sold to Auto-Trail, neither would Auto-Trail have measured emissions once that chassis had been converted into a motorhome by adding rear bodywork

 

The handbook shown on the following link has an April 2005 issue-date that’s the earliest on the Fiat elum website - but it ought to be OK for your 2003 vehicle.

 

https://tinyurl.com/hy2av72z

 

If it's ESSENTIAL that gear-ratio, body code and noise data be provided, a noise-level of 78 db (A) at 4000rpm seems credible to me and you could pick a ‘body code’ from the Fiat handbook. The gear ratios for a 2006 Ducato X250 with 5-speed transmission were

 

1st 3.727:1

2nd 1.952:1

3rd 1.290:1

4th 0.875:1

5th 0.647:1

REVERSE 3.154:1

Final drive ratio 4.933:1 (74/15)

 

so you could provide those and it’s most unlikely anyone would challenge those figures.

 

If you want to get your motorhome registered in Italy and the only current stumbling block relates to few inconsequential data that neither Fiat nor Auto-Trail are in a position to provide, I suggest you be proactive and ‘creative’.

[APN01]

Hi Derek

 

It has been kind of a long day and so will update further later. But I did just want to thank you for your post which has helped me out a good deal.

 

To update, the engine number is within the V5C documentation. And looking through the FIAT Ducato Owner Handbook for the vehicle I have found:

- body code

- power output (the same as in your post)

- maximum speed data for each gear ratio

 

Which would leave:

- gearbox gear ratios

- noise

- emissions (if available)

 

So. I may just go ahead and use your suggested gearbox ratios & noise level data. Or have a trawl about on the internet. Or another look at the handbook. Emissions data - only if available - so I may be able to skip that. (FIAT UK have given me Euro 111 as the European Directive on Polluting Emissions).

 

A potential stumbling block would be that all the data must ultimately come from Auto Trail VR Ltd on official documentation and signed off. Maybe it is just me. To this point they do not seem to have been very engaged and so I am not sure that getting the documentation would be easy.

 

Anyway. Thank you so much again. Brilliant.

Andrew

[Derek Uzzell]

You could probably find ‘real’ gear ratios for a 2003 Ducato with 2.0 JTD motor if you searched deeply enough, but not a noise figure for the completed motorhome as that datum would not have been measured by Auto-Trail as there was no need for them to do it.

 

If - for Italian registration to take place - you MUST have these data ‘officially’ provided by Auto-Trail, I just can’t see that happening.

 

[Brian Kirby]

Fiat's attitude is a bit odd. The base vehicle was made in Italy, so Fiat Turin will have all its details. I think Fiat UK are being unhelpful.

 

However, if your Italian is good enough, and you go to an Italian Fiat Professional dealership and ask nicely, they should be able to download and print the full specification for your Fiat base from their own system using the VIN as the reference. Fiat UK can also do this, and so can UK Fiat dealerships. The vehicle just appears on the system as a "visitor".

 

Nick Fisher (euroserv) was able to do this for me a couple of years ago but I believe the source (partslink24) he used (as well as Nick) is no longer available. However, and authorised dealer should have no problem doing so and, if printed, should have the Fiat logo on it (the partslink stuff has) so, from an Italian dealership so should also come in Italian (mine is part English), meaning no demand for translation. Autotrail may then be able to provide a statement to the effect that the Italian data matches their build records - if they can be motivated to do so. Getting the Fiat data from the horse's mouth, plus verification from the UK stage three manufacturer that they a) can match the Fiat data to their own records and b) can confirm the base vehicle is one they converted, should, although not exactly what the Italians are asking for, with a little helpful flexibility, surely be close enough to the ideal for registration purposes.

 

Worth a try? The dealer may charge you for the service, but apart from a few minutes time and some paper etc, it is hardly a costly job for them.