Installation of refillable gas bottle

[Anniepat]

We are hoping to visit France for the first time in September and want to change one of our gas low bottles to a refillable one. Does anyone out there know where we can get this done professionally in or near Cumbria!

 

"If you see someone without a smile lend him/her yours"

[Agaric]

For one bottle it's a pretty straight forward DIY job, even installing a two bottle system is easy.

[StuartO]

You say that you want to replace "one of our gas low bottles to a refillable one" - and 'Gaslow' is the brand name of a refillable bottle system.  Do you mean you want to replace one (of two?) refillable bottles with another one or fit a refillable bottle to replace a rental (eg Calor) bottle? 

 

The cheapest approach might be to buy a single directly refillable bottle (such as Gaslow offer) but then you might encounter difficulties getting petrol statsions to let you refill, so a better approach will be to install a refillable system with an external filler point, on the skin of the MH outside the gas locker.

 

Does your present installation include a modern wallmounted regulator and an automatic changeover valve because if not it might be sensible to fit those too, if you can stretch to that.

 

There is a caravan dealer near Lancaster called Dalesview Caravans, The Workshop, Newby, Lancaster, LA2 8HS Telephone:01524 251100   which offers to supply and install Gaslow systems.

[Anniepat]

Oops - slip,of the tongue! We currently have gas light!

[Tracker]

Are you sure that you need refillable gas bottles?

 

It all depends on whether you use site hook ups or non hook up Aires, and on what system and gas capacity you already have, and on how long you are going for, and on what time of year, and on whether you shower in the van a lot (using gas water heater), and on whether you expect to use the heating a lot (on gas)?

 

A few more details will elicit better advice.

 

It is easy to fit if you are competent and experienced but if you have no experience it is best left to professionals to fit to be safe.

 

We used a refillable system and had no problems whatsoever filling in the UK, France, Germany or Spain but where the option existed I tended to stop blind side on to the kiosk so I could not be seen, just in case!!

[Anniepat]

Hi there - we are hoping to be away for a month. We have 2x10 kg gas . Our Truma heating system is gas only so we don't have the option of switching to electric when hooked up. Hubby has just spoken to Gaslow who have confirmed a competent amateur (hubby is - I'm not!) can fit the system including an external nozzle access so I guess that is the way forward.

[Derek Uzzell]

Gaslow installation instructions can be found here:

 

http://www.gaslow.co.uk/pdf/INSTRUC_inside_UK.pdf

 

The instructions are somewhat out of date regarding the LPG-canister design, but the installation guidance still obtains.

 

The current range of Gaslow “R67” canisters is shown here:

 

http://www.gaslowdirect.com/epages/cyujrhdmmu67.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/cyujrhdmmu67/Categories/Gaslow_Products/Gaslow_Refillable

 

and the Gaslow product leaflet is here:

 

http://tinyurl.com/hjgyks2

 

The simplest approach would (as StuartO says) to choose a Gaslow “Direct Fill” canister that comes with an adapter to connect to an autogas pump’s delivery-gun.

 

http://www.gaslowdirect.com/Cylinders

 

Although Gaslow has told your husband that a ‘competent amateur’ can install a system with an external filling-point, how easy carrying out that task will prove will very much depend on the motorhome the system is being fitted to. For example, fitting an external filling-point to my Rapido 640F would be particularly challenging due to the position and design of its gas-locker. Consequently, I’ve chosen to go down the Gaslow “Direct Fill” canister route.

 

September is not that far away and installing a “Direct Fill” canister should be a simple matter. You haven’t said what motorhome you own, but if it has a bulkhead-mounted 30mbar gas-regulator, (besides obtaining the canister itself) you’d just need a suitable high-pressure gas-hose (‘pigtail’) to connect the canister to the regulator and the ‘dish’ filling adapter used in France (example here)

 

https://www.autogasshop.co.uk/autogas-lpg-euro-dish-adapter-2-p.asp

 

which you’d also require if an external filling-point were installed.

 

As StuartO warns, there is the possibility that a service-station attendant (in the UK or France) might be unhappy with the ‘direct-filling’ approach (I’ve never had this happen, but I’ve never sought assistance when refilling my motorhome’s gas bottles). But if time is tight and you are prepared to accept that (small in my view) risk, choosing a “Direct Fill” canister much simplifies installation and would not prevent fitting an external filling-point subsequently.

 

Shop around for best prices.

[Brock]

Tracker - are you on the 'up' again? As in health.

[Tracker]

Brock - 2017-08-03 2:35 PM

Tracker - are you on the 'up' again? As in health.

 

Thanks for asking Brock, I think the uphill bit is ending, more on the level bit now, just waiting to roll over and down the hill!

[Anniepat]

Thanks folks for your helpful advice. We intend self installation after talking to Gaslow. Happy touring.

[Violet1956]

Tracker - 2017-08-03 3:30 PM

 

Brock - 2017-08-03 2:35 PM

Tracker - are you on the 'up' again? As in health.

 

Thanks for asking Brock, I think the uphill bit is ending, more on the level bit now, just waiting to roll over and down the hill!

 

Ah but the good news is that you're not over the hill Tracker. Hope you found a buyer for the van.

 

Veronica

[Derek Uzzell]

Anniepat - 2017-08-03 6:58 PMThanks folks for your helpful advice. We intend self installation after talking to Gaslow. Happy touring.

I’ve copied below observations from an earlier forum thread about how a UK motorcaravanner might address gas-usage outside the UK.

You say that your motorhome normally carries two “Gas Light” 10kg propane containers. This equates to roughly 40 litres of LPG and could well be adequate for a month’s stay in France in early-Autumn unless your gas-usage is unusually high. My Rapido’s Truma heater is also gas-only: I use it mainly for water heating and, when on a campsite in cool weather, use a 230V fan-heater for air heating. I work on an average gas-usage of 1 litre per day, so starting out with 40 litres should easily last me a month abroad in September/October.

Gas Light containers are translucent, allowing the amount of gas inside the container to be (relatively) easily checked. Even if it became apparent to you that your 40 litres was unlikely to last a month, there should be no great difficulty obtaining a French container (a Butagaz “Le Cube” say) and an appropriate gas-hose to connect it to your motorhome’s gas system. To free up space for the French bottle in the gas-locker, you’d need to store in the motorhome one of your empty Gas Light bottles that, although bulky, are at least light.

I’m not attempting to dissuade you from fitting a user-refillable gas canister, but (as Tracker suggested earlier) there may be no overwhelming pressure to do so for your first trip to France. 

(I’m guessing you are aware of this, but it may be worth adding that Gaslow is not the only provider of user-refillable gas bottles.)

.............................................................................................................................................

Regular inquiries on motorhome forums relate to obtaining gas supplies in the UK or abroad and the potential problems caused by non-standardisation. Motorhomes vary radically in size, design and the manner in which they are used, so it's seldom possible to provide a black-or-white answer as the gas arrangements that may be great for UK touring may be hopeless if your motorcaravanning is primarily in Europe or vice versa. (For convenience, I shall use the words "Europe" and "European" to relate to European countries outside the UK.) 

The first (and perhaps most important) thing to bear in mind is that UK 'exchange-only' gas-bottles (such as Calor containers) are not exchangeable outside this country. So what can UK motorcaravanners do about gas during extended trips in Europe? There are several options. 

A. Take as much UK gas as the 'van can carry and hope it lasts. This is a viable strategy if campsite 230V hook-ups are continuously used and all heating, cooking, refrigeration, lighting, etc. activities are arranged to use mains electricity. In such a scenario gas usage is essentially nil. Many UK campers can eke out small gas reserves for several months by regular employment of campsite hook-ups. This strategy won't suit a more-gypsy lifestyle though and, of course, if your UK gas-bottles do become empty (through usage or a fault), you won't be able to exchange them until you get back to the UK. Historically, UK-built 'vans have tended to be designed around Calor's 7kg/6kg bottle size. In such cases it's most unlikely that Calor's 13kg/15kg bottle can be used instead, but it may be possible to employ the slightly smaller containers available from alternative gas suppliers like Flogas. Using 2 x 11kg Flogas bottles instead of 2 x 6kg Calor canisters will almost double your gas reserves. (Information on UK gas-bottle dimensions and availability can be found in the Caravan and Motorhome Club handbook. This also contains a useful section on Calor bottle refilling in Ireland.) 

B. Use Campingaz. The price of canisters varies considerably country to country, but it's generally poor value for money. The gas is butane (so unsuitable for really cold weather use) and the biggest bottle holds less than 3kg of gas. But Campingaz bottles are widely available in many European countries and in the UK. 

C. Use 'autogas'. This is a mixture of propane and butane gasses, with the proportions varying from country to country. UK autogas is close to100% propane and is obtainable as vehicle fuel at many service stations. It's similarly available throughout Europe, though the number of supplying outlets in particular countries varies significantly. To carry the gas your motorhome will require a fixed refillable gas reservoir or you will need to buy a user-refillable gas-bottle. Although the filling-connector is not standardised Europe-wide, the number used is limited to three and adapters are available. UK service stations selling autogas may prohibit the filling of refillable bottles, but I've never come across this abroad. Having said that, if you ask service-station employees anywhere to fill your bottle for you they will very likely refuse. These are "USER-refillable" bottles and, if you anticipate problems refilling them yourself, you should avoid them. The ratio of propane to butane in autogas is unpredictable and, in extremely cold conditions, this may lead to vaporisation problems for motorcaravanners using this product for 'domestic' appliances within the motorhome. 

D. Use the exchange-only gas bottles employed in the country where you are touring. Some modifications may need to be made to your 'van's gas-system to allow such bottles to be employed, and what these adaptations are (and how simple the process involved will be) will depend on your motorhome's existing system. It also needs emphasising that UK-built motorhomes with gas-lockers designed around 6kg/7kg (or smaller) Calor bottles may have trouble accommodating European gas containers as these generally have a larger cross-section. 

Combinations of these options are perfectly normal. So a UK motorcaravanner might use A plus B - a couple of UK bottles with a Campingaz cylinder as a back-stop. Or C + D - an autogas tank for use when travelling around, with a local exchange-only bottle brought into play when your large motorhome (eg an American RV) is campsite parked for long periods and you are reluctant to move it. Or A + D - a twin-bottle system comprising an exchange-only 'foreign' bottle with a UK bottle as temporary 'change-over' back-up. 

(Exchange-only bottles can be refilled in some European countries. This practice carries inherent risks and is frowned on by all responsible leisure authorities. It may well be illegal (it certainly is in France) and it will definitely break the hire contract regulations for this type of bottle.) 

It is practically impossible to refill (legally!) a 'foreign' exchange-only bottle in the UK, so European motorcaravanners visiting the UK long-term face the same potential problems regarding replenishment of gas supplies and have the same options as we do going 'over there'. They have some advantages however. The gas-bottles normally used in European leisure vehicles tend to be larger than ours (13kg or 11kg propane instead of our 6kg propane), so they can carry more gas to begin with. Also, simple end-of-hose adapters may be readily available in their native countries to allow connection of UK bottles to their vehicle's gas system. For example, in France, one can purchase a range of adapters permitting a selection of non-French propane bottles to be connected to a French motorhome, or to allow a French 13kg propane bottle to be connected to a 'van with a UK or German gas-system. 

Just two main gas-pressure standards (28/37mbar or 30mbar) for leisure-vehicles currently exist covering Europe and the UK. (There is also a superseded 50mbar pressure that may be found on older German vehicles.) However, there is a wide variety of national gas-bottle connector types. The UK uses a standard connector for all its generalised propane containers (“Gas Light” bottles are an exception) but several different connectors are employed for our butane bottles. Historically, France had a standard connector for all its 13kg bottles, but the various smaller sized French bottles recently introduced use different connectors. As far as I'm aware, other than Campingaz containers, the only gas-bottle that crosses national frontiers is "Le Cube", a smallish plastic container marketed by Butagaz in France, Holland and Portugal. 

As a UK motorcaravanner's first venture abroad is usually to France, it's worth looking at the preparations that might be taken for such an initial trip. (For people planning to start off with another country the same basic principles should apply.) Clearly you don't have to take any preparations if you're certain the gas in your UK bottles will last for the full duration of your stay abroad, or you are going to use Campingaz and your motorhome is already set up for this, or you've already got a user-refillable bottle or tank. But if you intend to use French bottles during your trip, or think you might need to, then this might help. (Most French service stations stock gas bottles and obtaining one will involve a deposit for the bottle plus the cost of the gas. However, unlike the UK, the French exchangeable gas bottle market is very competitive and tempting special offers abound.) 

Essentially, the gas-systems in UK 'vans can be split into two types - Old System (OS), where an on-bottle 28mbar (butane), or 37mbar (propane), regulator connects to the motorhome's fixed gas pipework via a low-pressure hose, or New System (NS) where a 'fixed' bulkhead-mounted 30mbar regulator connects directly to the motorhome's pipework and is attached to the gas-bottle via a high-pressure hose. With OS the regulator and gas must match: with NS butane or propane can be used with the same regulator. 

If you have OS and use butane, the logical thing to do is to employ a UK 28mbar regulator with a female-threaded connector suitable for Calor's 4.5kg cylinder. Adapters are readily available in the UK to allow this type of regulator to be linked to Calor 7kg/15kg cylinders with 21mm clip-on fittings, or to Campingaz containers with their screw-in connection. So you've got maximum flexibility within the UK. The threaded connection used on Calor's 4.5kg cylinder matches that of French 13kg gas-bottles, so you can connect your UK butane regulator directly to a big French butane bottle without any adaptation being required. If this option is not viable (French bottle too large?), then a 20mm clip-on adapter will allow the regulator to be used on ELFI, MALICE or TWINY butane cylinders or a 27mm clip-on adapter will fit the Le Cube butane container. (Both adapters are available in the UK or in France, but as Le Cube is a unique shape, a French 27mm adapter may be the better choice.) 

Old System (OS) with propane is trickier, as the UK regulator will (normally) have a UK-standard male left-hand-threaded POL connector. In theory it has been possible in France to buy an adapter to convert the UK propane connector to the standard French screw-on fitting. However, I've never spotted any on accessory-shop shelves and distributors were forever out of stock when I inquired about ordering one. So, if you want to employ French propane containers, you'll normally need to replace your UK 37mbar regulator with a French equivalent. You could choose a standard French propane regulator that screws directly on to their large 13kg bottle and use the 20mm or 27mm adapters I've just mentioned to connect to the smaller French propane containers. (Although the connector-type differs according to the bottle-type, unlike the UK it doesn't differ according to whether a bottle has butane or propane in it.) Alternatively, you could replace your regulator with either a 20mm (ELFI/MALICE/TWINY) or 27mm (Le Cube) French clip-on propane regulator. French propane regulators normally seem to be sold without the 'nozzle' for pushing into a flexible hose, but the nozzle is available separately. 

Similar, but simpler, principles will apply to UK motorhomes fitted with New System (NS). If you're accustomed to using butane, your bulkhead-mounted 30mbar regulator will most probably already carry a high-pressure ‘pigtail’ hose with a female-threaded connector to fit a 4.5kg Calor butane bottle. So the advice for OS butane applies. If you're using propane, then swap the high-pressure hose for the butane one just mentioned. This will attach directly to a 13kg French propane bottle or you can add an adapter to connect to the smaller containers. 

(A small number of (mainly German) motorhomes use a bottle-mounted 30mbar regulator that connects directly to German propane bottles and uses a low-pressure hose to connect to the vehicle's fixed gas system. You can obtain an adapter to permit this regulator to be used with UK propane bottles but it probably makes better sense to have the system converted to NS with a fixed 30mbar regulator.) 

Countries like Greece and Italy, Sweden, Spain and Portugal, etc. have their own types of bottle connector. The easiest way to decide what you might need if you wanted to use their gas containers on your motorhome is to obtain a copy of Gaslow's brochure as this lists a wide range of hoses and adapters that can be purchased in the UK. 

[Tracker]

Since using a refillable gas system we became more aware of how much gas we use and when we need to buy more and 1kg per day would be about right for us too in anything but the coldest of climates.

[Billggski]

One big plus is that you don't have to exchange a half full bottle just so that you have enough to last when abroad.