John Allen Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Buying a new Autotrail Apache 700 with the intention of towing wife's VW UP on an A frame in UK only. Just tried to get a quote from Caravanguard and they told me that from last month they will not insure you (new policies) if you tow a car on an A frame. The guy I spoke to seems to think it is because they do not want to get in to the detail of the type of braking assistance system fitted with the A frame. Something like the Smart Tow system may be ok with proper vacuum assistance system but some others may not be acceptable. They obviously do not want the bother of getting into the expensive area of type approvals, easier to give a blanket "no". Does anyone have any insurer recommendations who accept A frame towing.- I know the car itself would not be covered on the motor home insurance so please lets avoid that red herring for now? Also does anyone have any recommendations for a suitable trailer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 John Allen - 2015-07-03 6:35 PM They obviously do not want the bother of getting into the expensive area of type approvals, easier to give a blanket "no". From what I have seen not one single A frame manufacturer can supply the correct certificates to make an A frame combo into a trailer, this seems to leave them as only able to comply with being a recovery a frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 John Allen - 2015-07-03 6:35 PM Buying a new Autotrail Apache 700 with the intention of towing wife's VW UP on an A frame in UK only. Just tried to get a quote from Caravanguard and they told me that from last month they will not insure you (new policies) if you tow a car on an A frame. The guy I spoke to seems to think it is because they do not want to get in to the detail of the type of braking assistance system fitted with the A frame. Something like the Smart Tow system may be ok with proper vacuum assistance system but some others may not be acceptable. They obviously do not want the bother of getting into the expensive area of type approvals, easier to give a blanket "no". Does anyone have any insurer recommendations who accept A frame towing.- I know the car itself would not be covered on the motor home insurance so please lets avoid that red herring for now? Also does anyone have any recommendations for a suitable trailer? I insure both my Motorhome (Autotrail Savannah) and my car a Toyota Yaris, with the Caravan Club Insurance, I went into great detail telling them that Both would be used together as an 'Outfit'. The Car being towed with a 'Car-a-tow' A-Frame, which has an overrun braking system, BOTH are insured Fully Comprehensive either when used individually or Together. I would check your Autotrails towing limit. as mine is set at 1060kg, So, for me a trailer was a 'No-Go', Car =1040kg A-Frame =20kg. Up to my limit. We have Towed all over the UK for 18 months now, without any problems. The car is our 'everyday' car, so no 'extra' vehicle was purchased. Solved all of our Parking problems, which have steadily been getting worse over the last few years, as Councils try to make more money from parking, but also introduce draconian parking restrictions for Motorhomes. All the details from the Car-a- tow, website.; http://www.caratow.com/moreinformation.php I am able to reverse the car when attached to the van, no trouble. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Allen Posted July 3, 2015 Author Share Posted July 3, 2015 Thanks Ray, I will check out the Caravan Club insurance tomorrow as I am already a member The new Autotrail Apache 700 has a towing limit of 1250kg so as the VW UP is only 932kg there is enough capacity for towing on a trailer if necessary although I would prefer to tow on an A frame to avoid the site problems of turning up with a trailer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 colin - 2015-07-03 7:43 PM John Allen - 2015-07-03 6:35 PM They obviously do not want the bother of getting into the expensive area of type approvals, easier to give a blanket "no". From what I have seen not one single A frame manufacturer can supply the correct certificates to make an A frame combo into a trailer, this seems to leave them as only able to comply with being a recovery a frame. It has never been suggested that a car on an A-frame (being towed by a motorhome within the UK) actually ‘becomes’ a trailer. What has been argued (and is generally accepted) is that the car + A-frame can be classified as a trailer within the UK’s motoring legislation framework. This was explained in this 2011 document https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/408927/a-frames-and-dollies.pdf together with reservations about the ‘historic’ type of inertia-braked A-frame system (as used by Rayjsj) actually being able to comply with the UK’s trailer-related technical regulations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derek pringle Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 hi all, Through mobility issues I found I needed a car whilst away with the motorhome and we ended up virtually staying on whichever site we were at. My personal decision was that if I was going to tow we may as well revert back to a caravan benefitting from a bit more room. What I have noticed lately though is the number of what I would call 'small' motorhomes towing a vehicle behind[on A frames] seems to be a growing theme. Surely,the insurance companies should be able to sort a sensible policy out for these owners. It wouldn't have suited me as mainly holidaying in Europe I think I am right in saying a trailer is the only way. cheers derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Derek Uzzell - 2015-07-04 8:17 AM colin - 2015-07-03 7:43 PM John Allen - 2015-07-03 6:35 PM They obviously do not want the bother of getting into the expensive area of type approvals, easier to give a blanket "no". From what I have seen not one single A frame manufacturer can supply the correct certificates to make an A frame combo into a trailer, this seems to leave them as only able to comply with being a recovery a frame. It has never been suggested that a car on an A-frame (being towed by a motorhome within the UK) actually ‘becomes’ a trailer. What has been argued (and is generally accepted) is that the car + A-frame can be classified as a trailer within the UK’s motoring legislation framework. This was explained in this 2011 document https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/408927/a-frames-and-dollies.pdf together with reservations about the ‘historic’ type of inertia-braked A-frame system (as used by Rayjsj) actually being able to comply with the UK’s trailer-related technical regulations. But since that was issued things have moved on,all new trailers now require a certificate. http://www.dft.gov.uk/vca/vehicletype/trailers.asp The braking issue is now a red herring, unless the combo has a cert it's not a trailer, and I would suggest cannot be classified as one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 The back of my mind is still bugged by part of a directive I read on trailer construction, that said if the trailer was equipped for ABS the ABS must function when towed. As most cars these days have ABS, I cannot understand how that requirement could be met - always assuming a the car fitted with an A frame drawbar could be accepted as a trailer. But I agree that the possibility that a towed car can be regarded as a trailer post October 2013 now seems remote. It will already have a CoC stating that it is a car. It will not have a CoC stating that it is a trailer. So, it seems it must now be accepted that the earlier "grey area" argument must fail. If that is so, I assume it will have some influence over what can be insured. Most, if not all, policies provide third party only cover for a trailer towed by a vehicle. If the new trailer legislation removes that famous grey area, as it seems to, a car on an A frame can only be covered for third party risks under the towing vehicles insurance if the insurer specifically agrees. Presumably, not all insurers will want to cover that risk, especially if it might appear to condone an action that, on the face of it, contravenes legislation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Brian, not what my insurers have confirmed to me, Insured fully comprehensively both when used independently AND when used with the A-frame as a unit. I was quite specific about my requirements when insuring, both vehicles with the Caravan Club. details of the A-frame, make and year of manufacture were given to them. I have no intention of trying to use the A-frame on Continental Europe, I don't need the hassle. UK only is fine for me.If you look about you when on UK motorways and on sites you will see many many units using A-Frames ,so, I am not alone in discovering the advantages. Without the A-Frame plus car, motorhoming in the UK is very restricted, parking-wise even for PVC's. I agree with Derek that if you need to take your car with you in Europe, then a trailer is the only way, IF you have enough towing capacity (which I do not). Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Yes, I understand that Ray, but it seems John's experience with Caravanguard was different. As I said, under the new trailer rules some insurers may not wish to cover the risk. It will presumably, as with most things related to insurance, vary from company to company, possibly depending on the ages of the tow vehicle and/or the towed vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 The ages of my vehicles are motorhome 2012, car 2010. The car is to be upgraded this year, so we will see then, how they feel about a 2015 car. I will ask them in advance of getting the car, as we wouldn't motorhome without the car now, if they say no, we will stick with the 2010 Yaris. The Caravan Club were very helpful, and seemed to know all about A-frames. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiseller Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Rayjsj - 2015-07-04 12:29 PM The ages of my vehicles are motorhome 2012, car 2010. The car is to be upgraded this year, so we will see then, how they feel about a 2015 car. I will ask them in advance of getting the car, as we wouldn't motorhome without the car now, if they say no, we will stick with the 2010 Yaris. The Caravan Club were very helpful, and seemed to know all about A-frames. Same experience as Ray, 2012 van with 2010 Caratow a-framed Smart. Both vehicles insured through Caravan Club at very competitive premiums and who also know I am a-framing. Would have to keep the Smart if things change as trailer would be a complete pita and I prefer the much greater stability of a-framing and not having to park it somewhere. The braking servo argument I see as a non-starter, I can feel the braking effort from the Smart when the overrun kicks in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Allen Posted July 4, 2015 Author Share Posted July 4, 2015 Hi guys,thanks for airing your views and experiences. Today I have insured the new motor home through the Camping and Caravanning club who had a good look into the situation and said they had no problem insuring the motor home to tow the car on an A frame so long as I acknowledged that the the car and A frame was only covered for 3rd party liability if it became detached or caused damage in some other way whilst being towed. Any damage to the car has to be covered by its own insurance or at my expense. This is fair enough and is what I would have expected. Obviously some of you are ahead of the curve here and have both vehicles insured through the same insurer to avoid any disputes. I think it would be wise for anyone using an A frame and currently insured through Caravan Guard to check the situation when renewing their policy, or something may be slipped in to the wording using a one point font, voiding the insurance. After all assumption is the mother of all foul ups. Collecting the new Autotrail Apache 700 on Friday after a gap of 2 years from towing a twin axle with a Toyota Landcruiser. Will be great to get travelling again and hope to meet some of you guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 There are thousands of caravans buzzing around with overrun braking systems, no -one is advocating to change them on safety grounds, because they work well, My system on my A-frame also works well, the car tows very stable with no swaying or problems when being overtaken. Recommend it. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 Rayjsj - 2015-07-04 10:26 PM There are thousands of caravans buzzing around with overrun braking systems, no -one is advocating to change them on safety grounds, because they work well, My system on my A-frame also works well, the car tows very stable with no swaying or problems when being overtaken. Recommend it. Ray But Ray, the braking systems on caravans (and other braked trailers) are designed to work as overrun systems.. The brake automatically releases during reversing, and is legally required to do so. Car braking systems are designed to work as discrete systems, usually these days with ABS, usually with disc brakes at least at the front, invariably with servo assistance, and do not release automatically when reversing. The two concepts are not strictly comparable, and I don't think the fact that one is OK should be taken to mean that that the other will be OK, solely on the basis that both rely on inertia to operate the brakes. Yours may be fine, but it cannot be assumed that everyone else's will be. Too many variables. IMO, anyone contemplating having an A frame fitted would be wise to verify that their make and model of car has been converted before, and that it was satisfactory in practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 I agree, make sure that the A-Frame drawbar is fitted professionally to the front of the car, (and doesn't just use the original towing eye) also make sure that the braking system is working correctly before attempting towing, most A-Frame fitters are professional engineers, with much experience and many customer recommendations, ask to see the fitters credentials and recommendations, most ( genuine ones) will be only too happy to do so. My A-Frame is by Car-a-Tow, they have suppliers and fitting.engineers around the Country as well as an active website.They have also been in business almost as long as MMM, And make sure you ARE insured for towing with the A-Frame. Try reversing your outfit , mine reverses fine, check that yours does BEFORE having to do it in 'anger'. For safety have a reversing camera that keeps an eye on your towed car. Happy towing ! Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 Brian Kirby - 2015-07-05 10:55 AM Rayjsj - 2015-07-04 10:26 PM There are thousands of caravans buzzing around with overrun braking systems, no -one is advocating to change them on safety grounds, because they work well, My system on my A-frame also works well, the car tows very stable with no swaying or problems when being overtaken. Recommend it. Ray But Ray, the braking systems on caravans (and other braked trailers) are designed to work as overrun systems.. The brake automatically releases during reversing, and is legally required to do so. Car braking systems are designed to work as discrete systems, usually these days with ABS, usually with disc brakes at least at the front, invariably with servo assistance, and do not release automatically when reversing. The two concepts are not strictly comparable, and I don't think the fact that one is OK should be taken to mean that that the other will be OK, solely on the basis that both rely on inertia to operate the brakes. Yours may be fine, but it cannot be assumed that everyone else's will be. Too many variables. IMO, anyone contemplating having an A frame fitted would be wise to verify that their make and model of car has been converted before, and that it was satisfactory in practice. If the towing system so good why are there so many flat packed pictures of caravans all over the place. I probably see at least 4 disasters caused by towing accidents a year on my travels. the biggest was a massive yacht on its side and a 4x4 upside down in a ditch another thing I dont get. when it attached to motorhome its covered 3rd party only?. but if it detaches the fully comp insurance kicks in? have I read this corectly? so a driverless out of control car is covered by its car insurance? or maybe I have missed something... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 They usually get into trouble when they become unstable because of bad trailer match, excess speed, cross-winds/slipstreams, bad loading, or taking emergency avoiding action. Braking, AFAIK, unless in conjunction with the above, or in the case of total failure, is vary rarely a cause of trailer accidents. I think every vehicle insurance I've ever had extends its third party cover to any coupled trailer that it is legally permissible to tow. So, in the circumstances you describe, if the car hits another vehicle after it has broken loose, the damage to the vehicle it hits would be covered by the tow vehicle's insurance, but the damage to the car itself would be covered by the car's own insurance. But, the insurance company may take quite an interest in why the tow hitch came free! :-) Got yer Waeco sound working yet? >-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 Brian Kirby - 2015-07-05 12:45 PM Got yer Waeco sound working yet? >-D not thought about it to be honest...bigger fish to fry :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 JudgeMental - 2015-07-05 12:18 PM Brian Kirby - 2015-07-05 10:55 AM Rayjsj - 2015-07-04 10:26 PM There are thousands of caravans buzzing around with overrun braking systems, no -one is advocating to change them on safety grounds, because they work well, My system on my A-frame also works well, the car tows very stable with no swaying or problems when being overtaken. Recommend it. Ray But Ray, the braking systems on caravans (and other braked trailers) are designed to work as overrun systems.. The brake automatically releases during reversing, and is legally required to do so. Car braking systems are designed to work as discrete systems, usually these days with ABS, usually with disc brakes at least at the front, invariably with servo assistance, and do not release automatically when reversing. The two concepts are not strictly comparable, and I don't think the fact that one is OK should be taken to mean that that the other will be OK, solely on the basis that both rely on inertia to operate the brakes. Yours may be fine, but it cannot be assumed that everyone else's will be. Too many variables. IMO, anyone contemplating having an A frame fitted would be wise to verify that their make and model of car has been converted before, and that it was satisfactory in practice. If the towing system so good why are there so many flat packed pictures of caravans all over the place. I probably see at least 4 disasters caused by towing accidents a year on my travels. the biggest was a massive yacht on its side and a 4x4 upside down in a ditch another thing I dont get. when it attached to motorhome its covered 3rd party only?. but if it detaches the fully comp insurance kicks in? have I read this corectly? so a driverless out of control car is covered by its car insurance? or maybe I have missed something... The amount of 'upside down' caravans is caused ,as Brian says by bad weight matches and excess speed, also IMO of inherent instability of 2 wheeled single axle trailers/caravans , towing a car on it's wheels is very stable, wheel in each corner, best platform available. As for Insurance, as I have said, mine is Insured Fully Comprehensively whether on tow or being driven solo, that is both vehicles. I have towed various caravans over the years, and have found towing a car, on it's wheels, far more stable, also if the car should ever separate from the van, its brakes would automatically be a applied by the breakaway cable, So it wouldn't go very far. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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