james-maclaren Posted May 9, 2020 Share Posted May 9, 2020 Hi, My 2005 Fiat Ducato Autotrail Apache 700SE motorhome was unfortunately torched this week and is a total write-off. There were a number of fires started in the area, mostly wheelie bins or rubbish left on the street. The arsonist was caught thankfully but it wont help bring back my motorhome. My question to the knowledgeable among you is how much money should I be offered by the insurance company, and what should I accept? I guess you need to know that for my very recent insurance quote I said it had a value of £20,950 though I only paid £19,750. I suspect to replace it will cost me a lot more. It was in very good condition and with a low mileage. I am waiting for the insurance company to call me so I would like to know what to expect and what not to accept. I look forward to your replies. Regards, James PS. I will be looking for another 6 berth Autotrail. I thought it was amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevec176 Posted May 9, 2020 Share Posted May 9, 2020 Sorry to hear about your misfortunes but dont expect the insurance company to make things easy. The max you'll get is the current market value as long as its not more than you valued the van at. They'll probably make you a lower offer and then you'll have to argue your case. Don't forget to claim for everything that was in the van. I wish you luck in your claim and hope it wont be long before you're back on the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeco Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 In AU we insure for "agreed" value or "market" value. Your payout is based on what your policy indicates. If UK is the same then you will receive an amount according to your policy terms. Hopefully agreed value as it is anyone's guess what market value is at present. One thing for certain the post Covid valuation will be lower than the pre Covid valuation. I do feel for you when I read that your AT was torched, as if you need an event like this to deal with in addition to all the other issues to cope with during the "zombie apocalypse "! On a lighter note it is Mother's Day here today so a big cheer for all the Mums. Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 I expect it will depend on who the insurer is. When my van, insured with the CMC, was stolen the loss adjuster researched what a replacement vehicle would cost by talking to the converter. The insurers gave me what the converter said, which was what I then paid for a virtually identical replacement of the same age which they had just been in the process of buying. I made an itemised and costed schedule of everything which was inside and they gave me that too. It all happened within a few weeks and the loss adjuster couldn't have been more helpful. Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 Geeco - 2020-05-10 1:11 AM In AU we insure for "agreed" value or "market" value... Agreed value vehicle insurance is available in the UK, but market-value insurance would be more normal for ‘ordinary’ motorhomes. https://www.justkampersinsurance.com/extra-benefits/agreed-value/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceM Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 My advice would be to carry out some prior research by locating similar vans (age, manufacturer, model etc) for sale and print off copies so that if there is a disagreement over the valuation you can illustrate the current market value by referring to the market. Initially, I would expect the insurer’s Claims Department to take your initially insured value, deduct a figure for depreciation since ownership, reference it against ‘market value’ (probably by talking to a tame dealership) and then offer you the lower of the two figures. If you can demonstrate that their offer does not provide sufficient funds to purchase an equivalent replacement then they’ll have to increase their offer to match. One of my sons took this approach when his car was written off by a lorry and the insurance company low-balled the financial compensation. He ended up getting what he asked for after a few letters and a telephone call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 You will probably find yourself disappointed with your insurer's idea of market value so the better the evidence you have of what you will have to pay to replace your MH the better paced you will be to argue the toss. Start researching asking prices for motorhomes similar to yours both on EBay (where a lot of dealers place classified ads these days) and on dealers websites. Take notes of the highest and lowest prices and the factors involved, like mileage and wear and damage. You are entitled to be able to buy a replaceent on the open market rather than receive the part exchange or trade purchase price, so that's what you have to be able to prove. It might be worth asking an insurance loss ajuster to act for you. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 There is a Glass' Guide (trade price guide) for motorhomes in the UK and the insurer will almost certainly base their initial offer on that if it is a model covered by the guide, which I suspect any Autotrail would be. I know it exists because I took out a replacement vehicle gap insurance policy on our Vantage van when we bought it, and the insurer had to confirm that it was in the guide before they could quote for a policy. The offer will no doubt be based on a trade value. To counter it, you will need to prepare in advance and try to find several "valuations" based on offer prices of similar models currently for sale, both privately and through dealers if you can. Bear in mind though that advertised prices are not always what buyers actually pay after negotiations and expected discounts etc, so the insurer may try and knock you down on any such evidence as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don636 Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 My understanding was that market value was what you would have been able to sell it for on the open market. This is likely to be less than you would need to pay to buy it from a dealer due to their mark up so it is likely that you will be out of pocket. Is this correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 james-maclaren - 2020-05-09 9:27 PM Hi, My 2005 Fiat Ducato Autotrail Apache 700SE motorhome was unfortunately torched this week and is a total write-off. There were a number of fires started in the area, mostly wheelie bins or rubbish left on the street. The arsonist was caught thankfully but it wont help bring back my motorhome. My question to the knowledgeable among you is how much money should I be offered by the insurance company, and what should I accept? I guess you need to know that for my very recent insurance quote I said it had a value of £20,950 though I only paid £19,750. I suspect to replace it will cost me a lot more. It was in very good condition and with a low mileage. I am waiting for the insurance company to call me so I would like to know what to expect and what not to accept. I look forward to your replies. Regards, James PS. I will be looking for another 6 berth Autotrail. I thought it was amazing. If you have the heart and the energy you could investigate seeking to recover your uninsured losses from the arsonist - assuming they have any assets. You say above that he has been caught, so I assume his identity is, or will become, known. I'm not advocating this, as I assume the arsonist will more likely turn out to have no assets, or will be diagnosed with some form of mental disorder that would render him, in the eyes of the law, not responsible for his actions. There is also the little matter of whether he has, or will, admit to setting fire to your van, or whether, in the absence of a confession, it can be proved that it was actually him, and not some fictitious "mate" who was responsible. But if you do, try an initial talk to your nearest Citizens Advice office, who should have access to a "duty" solicitor to advise on your chances of success, and what you might need to do to bring a successful prosecution. Alternatively, consult AA or RAC etc if a member, or look through your other insurances, especially household, to see whether any provides legal advisory or support cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 Don636 - 2020-05-10 10:23 AM My understanding was that market value was what you would have been able to sell it for on the open market. This is likely to be less than you would need to pay to buy it from a dealer due to their mark up so it is likely that you will be out of pocket. Is this correct? Don, I used to deal with insurance assessors regularly in my work. My understanding is that they will base their valuation on the apparent pre-incident condition of the vehicle, using the trade and private sales prices in the published guide for assessment. The trade value is what a dealer would expect to pay to buy the vehicle, not what he would expect to sell it for. The dealer retail sales price will obviously include their margin over and above their acquisition costs including sales preparation, plus any extra margin that allows them to negotiate a "discount" with a purchaser. The private sales value is normally somewhere between the two. The insurer will usually make what the owner considers is a low offer, based on the trade valuation. If the owner does not want to accept that, a simple rejection may elicit a higher offer without any additional effort, but if the owner has a higher set value in mind, they will usually need to provide evidence to argue their case with the insurer. The insurer will argue that no-one pays the dealer forecourt price, as it is set to allow for haggling and discounting to the purchaser. Insurers are businesses and their primary aim is to turn a profit or minimise their losses, not always to do their best for the customer, and the assessors work for the insurers likewise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Den Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 I lost a van back in 2007. When I claimed they asked for any evidence of the condition and Interior pictures, with these they happily paid our superbly quick and met my expectations 100%. I’m sure I was lucky on that occasion, but I put forward a good case followed up with decent photos. ????You’ll come out of this horrible situation ok. Stay safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james-maclaren Posted May 10, 2020 Author Share Posted May 10, 2020 Many thanks for all your comments and sympathy. We do appreciate it and with a bit of luck we will find another one which fits the bill. The insurance company is ERS which was recommended by Staveley Head insurance brokers. One of the brokers who we found through this website I think. We will start gathering evidence of prices and see if the seller still has photos as we had not got round to taking any ourselves. Thanks to all, James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 Here you go, 2005 AT Apache 700SE 6 berth on a 2.8 Fiat for the bargain price of Twenty Five Grand!!! https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Auto-Trail-Apachee-700-SE/352989112998?hash=item522fca6aa6:g:IFwAAOSwbeZdeLfc or another for Twenty Grand... https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/202001236502608?advertising-location=at_motorhomes Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james-maclaren Posted May 10, 2020 Author Share Posted May 10, 2020 Thanks Keith. Very helpful and a good start. Just shows what a bargain we got :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james-maclaren Posted May 22, 2020 Author Share Posted May 22, 2020 Hi, As an update, I am looking for some urgent help regarding my insurance ERS who are refusing to pay out for my motorhome which was set on fire outside our home. They say it was in storage but we were cleaning it and sleeping in it. what should I do? I think I need to contact a lawyer to fight them. Can anyone suggest someone appropriate to do this? The other question is regarding legal costs, but that is secondary. in desperation, James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weldted Posted May 22, 2020 Share Posted May 22, 2020 Looking at the small print on our motorhome policy, it states the premium is based on where the van is kept for the majority of the time. Having it outside your house for maintenance or cleaning is to preserve the vehicle. I would think that is no difference to what happens when your are touring in the van and park it in street to go shopping or visiting an attraction. Typical insurance company cover you for everything except what you claim for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weldted Posted May 22, 2020 Share Posted May 22, 2020 your motorhome will be considered to be stored or in storage when it is not in use for the purposes of travel or other day to day Activity. This is the wording on your insurance companies website. It also states if reasonable precautions were not taken to protect it. Day to day activity as its a large vehicle ours takes more than a day to clean it, if leaving it locked outside your hours is not reasonable precautions to protect it I don’t know what is. Go back to your insurance company and tell them to get real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted May 22, 2020 Share Posted May 22, 2020 Say it 'was in storage' or 'should have been in storage'? If you have told them you normally keep it in secure storage and it was outside your home you will definitely need legal help, at the very least I'm guessing you would need to provide an invoice for storage over that period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevec176 Posted May 22, 2020 Share Posted May 22, 2020 I think you'll find that you have to inform your insurance company if you are going to leave your van unattended for more than a couple of days at a location other than where you told them when you took out the insurance. So if you had it outside your house for a few days and were sleeping in it, (ie camping) then you should still be meeting the conditions of your policy. Good luck sorting this out, as I said at the beginning its never easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted May 22, 2020 Share Posted May 22, 2020 james-maclaren - 2020-05-22 2:47 PM Hi, As an update, I am looking for some urgent help regarding my insurance ERS who are refusing to pay out for my motorhome which was set on fire outside our home. They say it was in storage but we were cleaning it and sleeping in it. what should I do? I think I need to contact a lawyer to fight them. Can anyone suggest someone appropriate to do this? The other question is regarding legal costs, but that is secondary. in desperation, James Cease ALL verbal communication with the insurance company (phone calls are recorded) and find yourself a reputable solicitor asap. You could start by contacting your local Citizens Advice Bureau which is manned by legally qualified people giving advice for free who should at least be able point you in the right direction. I'm not sure how far the pandemic situation has affected legal services though so you might be in for a wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevec176 Posted May 22, 2020 Share Posted May 22, 2020 Do you have legal cover with a car insurance, if so they might be able to advise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james-maclaren Posted May 24, 2020 Author Share Posted May 24, 2020 Thanks for all your advice and suggestions. I will let you know how I get on. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted May 25, 2020 Share Posted May 25, 2020 colin - 2020-05-22 3:21 PM Say it 'was in storage' or 'should have been in storage'? If you have told them you normally keep it in secure storage and it was outside your home you will definitely need legal help, at the very least I'm guessing you would need to provide an invoice for storage over that period. I have always said my van was kept on the street, and paid more for insurance, in case for some reason I didn't have it parked on our hardstanding. It was stolen overnight when I had it parked on the street a couple of doors away when we were selling the house. Since we were not travelling at the time I think that if we had it insured as being kept on the property the insurance company would have been quite within their rights to refuse to pay. I think this case it would depend on how long the van had been outside the house and the time of day. If it were at night and you weren't sleeping in it I think they could argue that it didn't comply with the insurance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james-maclaren Posted May 27, 2020 Author Share Posted May 27, 2020 Hi, The Brownsword Group have been appointed loss adjuster and have offered me £19750 less my excess. £19750 is what I paid for it. This is a without prejudice settlement figure. Clearly they don't know that ERS have voided the insurance. I am being asked if I want to accept this offer. Given the circumstances I am tempted to say yes, but as I am likely to have to fight ERS through the ombudsman should I be looking for the amount I insured it for which is another £1000? I suppose what I really want to know is, is the amount I paid for the MH as much as I can expect to receive? As always, I appreciate your feedback. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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