Insurance on the continent

[mark w]

Hi a word or warning (unless I a wrongly informed) I buy all of my motorhomes in Germany and register on return in the UK. When you collect them, you may be charged by the dealer for an export number plate which includes insurance. They can be a red stamped one (one month) or yellow (five days).

 

These plates are third party only and your UK insurance company will not give you cover until the vehicle is registered in the UK, it is however covered (on mine) fully comp from docks to home until it is registered.

 

I have tried NFU, Safeguard etc and they all say no comp cover on the chassis number. In fact, the insurance agent initially said ok but wrote to tell me they had made a mistake.

 

I have a large motor (lorry) policy for forty vehicles and even they would not cover me so for years we have been driving very expensive campers around Europe TP only!

 

So...does anyone know of an insurance company that will cover the return journey home to UK fully comp? any info greatly appreciated.

 

Cheers

 

Mark

[donna miller]

Hi Mark

 

I posted a thread a couple of years ago regarding insurance when I collected my van from Germany, I got so many putdowns and replies very close to calling me a liar and demanding that I post copies of the agreement with my insurers, that I refused to submit posts to insurance questions after that.

However, Motorcaravan wise covered me fully for the journey, as you quite rightly state, the German dealer will provide 3rd party cover for the vehicle.

 

What I could not make people on here accept was that my insurers covered me Fully comp for the entire journey, they can do this because the legally required 3rd party cover is underwritten by the German export plate. This means that in the event of an accident, your British insurer would not be liable for the damage to a third party's vehicle or person . Any subsequent damage to your own vehicle however is, and can be covered. All the armchair experts came out stating that you couldn't split the cover etc etc. But it's not a case of splitting cover.An insurance company can accept or decline to insure anything they want to, motor insurance is no different.

Comprehensive insurance is exactly what it says, your 3rd party cover is no greater, it just means cover to yourself, your possessions and damage to your vehicle is covered.

It makes no difference whether you insure on the vin plate or a dvla registration plate, it's the same vehicle, it doesn't magically change because you put a yellow number plate on it.

 

Anyway, Motorcaravan wise gave me comp cover from dealer to my home, with the condition I had 14 days to register the vehicle. I sincerely hope they haven't changed their policy on this, and that they can be of help to you, I have been with them for a few years, but they gave my friend who bought a van at the same time, exactly the same cover.

 

I hope this helps, and dutifully await the shootdowns which will inevitably appear.

[mark w]

Hi

 

thanks for your reply, I will of course call them immediately and, should this be a positive, will post the response.

 

Kind regards

 

Mark

[mark w]

Hi Donna

 

To all your doubters, you were right, Motorcaravanwise WILL, fully comprehensively cover any motorhome up to 40k in value for a max of 14 days on a chassis number only, you do not even need to pay for German insurance. They underwrite with NIG insurance who are a big set up.

 

Unfortuantely, my new campr is over 40k so will contact NIG to find a different broker or at least talk to my insurance company again.

 

If anyone still thinks this is wrong ...speak to Julie at motorcaravanwise/caravanwise.

 

cheers

 

Mark

[Derek Uzzell]

Mark:

 

This, as Donna Miller suggests, is a subject that has been vehemently discussed previously on this forum.

 

There is no doubt that UK insurance providers have, in the past, provided 'comprehensive' cover (based on a cover-note carrying chassis-number details) for motorhomes purchased on the Continent and being driven back to the UK by the buyer, and that this cover has been understood to begin from the moment the vehicle was handed over to the buyer and to cover the complete journey from Continental point-of-sale to UK home address.

 

This form of cover was provided to me when I imported my Germany-bought Hobby motorhome in mid-2005, with similar provisions (register vehicle within 14 days of arrival in UK) to those stipulated by MotorcaravanWise to Donna.

 

In my case, I wasn't completely convinced at the time that the arrangement was valid under UK insurance law, but I couldn't see that I had much to lose. At worst, I'd have insurance comprising Germany-issued 3rd-party cover + UK-issued comprehensive cover from UK-shore to my UK home or, at best, the UK-issued comprehensive cover would cover the complete trip. Fortunately I never had to test which of those two options was operative, but, now, after considerable subsequent research, I'm 100% convinced that it was NOT the latter.

 

As a new forum member, you won't yet appreciate what a picky beggar I am when it comes to accuracy, but I really did look into this in some depth. I contacted a raft of UK insurance providers (including MotorcaravanWise) and I sought lots of expert advice. I'm confident that, under the UK insurance regulations that are currently in place and have been for a good few years, my insurance provider (and Donna's) should not have offered cover on a non-UK-registered vehicle while it was being driven outside the UK in the manner that they did.

 

I recall, as part of my research, having a long drawn-out e-mail exchange with someone who had been offered, and accepted, 'comprehensive' insurance for a motorhome import and who put forward a very similar argument to Donna's to justify the validity of the cover that had been provided. (I don't think it was Donna I was in contact with, as I believe I'd remember the name.) I recall suggesting that, in the highly competitive UK insurance marketplace, when the vast majority of insurance providers said they were unable to offer 'outside the UK' cover for a non-UK-registered vehicle, didn't it seem a mite strange that just a tiny few said they could. However, this fell on deaf ears.

 

As I understand the logic behind Donna's argument, it's that the UK insurance provider doesn't actually supply 'comprehensive' cover at all, just a 'sub-set' version of that coverage that excludes 3rd-Party liability, and that the cover against 3-Part risks will be provided instead by the Germany-issued insurance. OK, let's (just for the sake of argument) assume that this is legally acceptable in principle. But what was happening in practice (and this was something that the chap I was in e-mail correspondence with seemed unable to appreciate) was that his and my insurance provider were not doing this - they were just issuing a bog-standard all-risks UK cover-note using a temporary registration number (my cover-note used "CHA551S") that ran from the date that the motorhome buyer anticipated collecting the vehicle from the Continental vendor. Other than the temporary registration number, the cover-note was no different to one that any UK insurance provider might issue for a UK-registered vehicle and there was absolutely no reference to 3rd-Party cover being excluded. This must surely cast grave doubts over the validity of the cover supposedly being offered.

 

Hopefully Mel Eastburn will wish to go over the fine detail of this (if he's prepared to suffer the mental anguish of revisiting the subject!) and perhaps provide an update on where we are regarding anticipated changes to EU insurance regulations that might facilitate personal vehicle importing.

 

My own understanding is that, at present, there's no UK insurance provider legally able to offer comprehensive insurance cover (that's "comprehensive insurance cover" as the man in the street understands the term to mean, not some pruned down version) on non-UK-registered vehicles while they are being driven outside the UK.

 

I should add that, when I did speak to MotorcaravanWise, I was also told that they could offer 'fully comprehensive' cover on the complete trip. When I queried how they could do this given that there were legal reasons preventing it I was informed by their representative that she was unaware of these, would check 'higher up' and phone me back. This never happened. NIG or Julie notwithstanding - I ain't convinced!

[donna miller]

It wasn't me Derek, but it was the mate I went over to germany with. I sat looking over his shoulder as he typed, and a lot of the content regarding the broker came from me. We bought back 2 more vans since then and had the same cover from our brokers. I looked back at the old thread and a couple of people said the law was supposed to be changing, let's hope that has already happened and Mark has some luck.

[passionwagon]

Derek Uzzell - 2008-07-31 11:24 AM

 

Mark:

 

This, as Donna Miller suggests, is a subject that has been vehemently discussed previously on this forum.

 

There is no doubt that UK insurance providers have, in the past, provided 'comprehensive' cover (based on a cover-note carrying chassis-number details) for motorhomes purchased on the Continent and being driven back to the UK by the buyer, and that this cover has been understood to begin from the moment the vehicle was handed over to the buyer and to cover the complete journey from Continental point-of-sale to UK home address.

 

This form of cover was provided to me when I imported my Germany-bought Hobby motorhome in mid-2005, with similar provisions (register vehicle within 14 days of arrival in UK) to those stipulated by MotorcaravanWise to Donna.

 

In my case, I wasn't completely convinced at the time that the arrangement was valid under UK insurance law, but I couldn't see that I had much to lose. At worst, I'd have insurance comprising Germany-issued 3rd-party cover + UK-issued comprehensive cover from UK-shore to my UK home or, at best, the UK-issued comprehensive cover would cover the complete trip. Fortunately I never had to test which of those two options was operative, but, now, after considerable subsequent research, I'm 100% convinced that it was NOT the latter.

 

As a new forum member, you won't yet appreciate what a picky beggar I am when it comes to accuracy, but I really did look into this in some depth. I contacted a raft of UK insurance providers (including MotorcaravanWise) and I sought lots of expert advice. I'm confident that, under the UK insurance regulations that are currently in place and have been for a good few years, my insurance provider (and Donna's) should not have offered cover on a non-UK-registered vehicle while it was being driven outside the UK in the manner that they did.

 

I recall, as part of my research, having a long drawn-out e-mail exchange with someone who had been offered, and accepted, 'comprehensive' insurance for a motorhome import and who put forward a very similar argument to Donna's to justify the validity of the cover that had been provided. (I don't think it was Donna I was in contact with, as I believe I'd remember the name.) I recall suggesting that, in the highly competitive UK insurance marketplace, when the vast majority of insurance providers said they were unable to offer 'outside the UK' cover for a non-UK-registered vehicle, didn't it seem a mite strange that just a tiny few said they could. However, this fell on deaf ears.

 

As I understand the logic behind Donna's argument, it's that the UK insurance provider doesn't actually supply 'comprehensive' cover at all, just a 'sub-set' version of that coverage that excludes 3rd-Party liability, and that the cover against 3-Part risks will be provided instead by the Germany-issued insurance. OK, let's (just for the sake of argument) assume that this is legally acceptable in principle. But what was happening in practice (and this was something that the chap I was in e-mail correspondence with seemed unable to appreciate) was that his and my insurance provider were not doing this - they were just issuing a bog-standard all-risks UK cover-note using a temporary registration number (my cover-note used "CHA551S") that ran from the date that the motorhome buyer anticipated collecting the vehicle from the Continental vendor. Other than the temporary registration number, the cover-note was no different to one that any UK insurance provider might issue for a UK-registered vehicle and there was absolutely no reference to 3rd-Party cover being excluded. This must surely cast grave doubts over the validity of the cover supposedly being offered.

 

Hopefully Mel Eastburn will wish to go over the fine detail of this (if he's prepared to suffer the mental anguish of revisiting the subject!) and perhaps provide an update on where we are regarding anticipated changes to EU insurance regulations that might facilitate personal vehicle importing.

 

My own understanding is that, at present, there's no UK insurance provider legally able to offer comprehensive insurance cover (that's "comprehensive insurance cover" as the man in the street understands the term to mean, not some pruned down version) on non-UK-registered vehicles while they are being driven outside the UK.

 

I should add that, when I did speak to MotorcaravanWise, I was also told that they could offer 'fully comprehensive' cover on the complete trip. When I queried how they could do this given that there were legal reasons preventing it I was informed by their representative that she was unaware of these, would check 'higher up' and phone me back. This never happened. NIG or Julie notwithstanding - I ain't convinced!

 

8-) All very interesting. The test for anyone who claims to have been given cover is what happened when a claim is made-only then will the haze be clear or a very big personal debt for someone. Anyone made a claim on such a policy/arrangement?? This is so for any insurance-you only get what you pay for. *-)

[Mel E]

Ever since the 4th EU Motor Insurance Directive became UK Law in 200?, the position has been clear:

 

1. UK based insurers reading the new law realised that the fully comp cover they had been providing to UK inporters from the foreign dealer was actually illegal. The 4th Directive didn't alter anything, it just poited out to them that they were unable to provide Third Party cover in countries where they are not part of the Bonding Scheme. The scheme run in the UK is run by the MIB and all insurance premiums contribute about 10% to the scheme to pay out for accidents caused by uninsured drivers (currently estimated at between 5% and 10% of UK cars but much lower in most Continental countries.

 

2. No UK insurer will join these bonding schemes just for the sake of relatively few personal importers and I know of no insurer or broker willing to write a special policy requiring you to obtain a Third Party policy abroad but give cover for fire theft and accidental damage unclaimable from a third party driver.

 

3. The 5th Directive became UK Law on 10 June 2007 in the UK and included specific clauses that would have overcome these problems. However the whole Directive has been referred back to Brussels as it contains provisions that are incompatible with existing law and so cannot be implemented.

 

4. The advice I have received is that any broker/ intermediary offering to provide fully comp insurance from the foreign dealer (and all motorhome insurance is bought through such brokers) would have the policy cancelled by the underwriting insurance company were a claim to be made on the insurance while abroad. You would then have to rely on taking the broker to court and getting payment from their (mandatory) professional indemnity insurance.

 

I really hope this kills the issue stone cold dead! There is unlikely to be any change until the 7th Directive is issued (the 6th and 7th have been combined) and that is likely to be at least another 4 years.

 

Mel E

====

[Mel E]

Of course, if Mark W had sent for my comprehensive MMM Fact Sheet on importing from abroad (details in MMM about every 3 months) then he would have known all this and a whole lot more well in advance.

 

Information is POWER!

 

Hope all goes well, Mark.

 

Mel E

====

[Brian Kirby]

So, the answer to Mark is that we know of one broker that claims to do this.  Their claim, under current legislation, appears wrong, and the underwriter (who actually provides the insurance) would reject the claim once the full facts were clear.  Under these circumstances, but only if the broker had clearly stated in writing that your comprehensive cover would apply to your unregistered (in UK) vehicle while outside the UK, you would have to sue the broker to get recompense should you suffer loss.  You would then just have to hope the broker and his Professional Indemnity insurer would meet your full loss.  Not really a very sound basis to proceed.

Your best alternative would seem to be to use the services of an personal import agent, such as Bundesvan, who will buy you the van you want, take payment in Sterling, and deliver the vehicle to your front door, taxed and registered, saving you the cost, and inconvenience, of travelling to Germany to view, buy and ship it home.  Their prices compare very favourably with the German forecourt prices, in Euros, as well, so their service is very cost effective, as well as saving time and insurance risk!

[donna miller]

Mark came on asking for advice and people's experiences, I gave him what I hoped was an honest account of what happened when I was in the same situation, I also predicted the inevitable posts that would follow, the statement that "if he had sent for a fact sheet, he would have been better informed" came across, to say the least, rather patronising. Maybe, as a new poster he didn't know that the topic had been discussed in the past, and how would he.

Long time members should realise that newcomers cannot always read every previous post and that the search engine doesn't always throw up the answers.

 

 

one or two posters have obviously researched thorougly the issue of 3rd party cover to vehicles not registered in the UK, and that would appear to be why they refuse to listen to anyone who disagrees with them, hence the wish that it "kills the issue stone dead", and "knowledge is power"

 

 

The truth of the matter is, that nobody on here (and certainly not me) has ever claimed that UK insurers have offered the 3rd party cover that is legally required whilst the vehicle is being driven outside the UK.

 

What has been said is that some UK based insurance companies will offer to cover your vehicle and it's contents against against accidental damage for the duration of the journey, it does not give 3rd party cover, that is provided by your export plate.

 

In the same way they can offer cover for damage to a pair of ski's, they are perfectly entitled to give accidental cover to a piece of machinery and it's accessories, i.e. your motorhome.

 

Only when you arrive back on UK soil are you required to have 3rd party cover issued by a UK based agent or company, which is of course provided as a road risk section within a comprehensive policy. The word comprehensive is just that, a word to consolidate many items, or in this case sections within a policy.

No doubt the arguements will come forth that a policy cannot be split to exclude 3rd party overseas, but where is the reasoning in that statement ?.

Look at all comprehensive policies, they are split into numerous sections,

: Road risk (legal minimum requirement against damage to a third party)

: Theft

: Fire damage

: Windscreen cover

: The list is comprehensive (no pun intended)

 

Can anybody who has said that my insurers are acting illegally, point out why it is illegal to give me cover for my windscreen between Dussledorf and Calais, or my radio if it gets stolen, or my roof box if I drive under a low bridge.

 

Step outside of the box people, look at the whole picture, and stop going on about 3rd party cover, and maybe you will understand where I (and a couple of others) are coming from. The issue is damage to our own vehicles and contents, not to other peoples.

 

If you read all the small print contained within the majority of comprehensive policies, they will exclude cover for a variety of things unless certain criteria are met, this however does not affect the 3rd party road risk.

 

That is probably why Mark's insurers put a cap of £40k on his cover. Nothing to do with running into Fritz on the way home, damage to Fritz's car is covered by the German export plate, which includes mandatory 3 party road risk.

 

Knowledge maybe power, but it can also be dangerous in the wrong hands.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

What is surely concerning is that MotorcaravanWise apparently advised Mark that the insurance they could arrange removed any need to obtain cover from the 'foreign' end.

 

mark w - 2008-07-31 10:54 AM

 

Motorcaravanwise WILL, fully comprehensively cover any motorhome up to 40k in value for a max of 14 days on a chassis number only, you do not even need to pay for German insurance. They underwrite with NIG insurance who are a big set up.

 

 

If we take the view that (as Mel E categorically states) such UK-issued policies are flawed, then anyone choosing not to obtain 3rd-Party insurance in the country where their motorhome is purchased would be frighteningly exposed to prosecution and compensation claims should an accident occur while the vehicle is being driven outside the UK.

 

I don't think this 'no 3rd-Party cover from abroad needed' idea is what Donna had in mind when she commented on the MotorcaravanWise policies she and her mate were provided with, and it would be interesting to have her thoughts on this latest development.

 

When I spoke to MotorcaravanWise in 2006, I don't recall being told which insurance company would be involved. I'm pretty sure a value limit (it might well have been £40k) for the motorhome was mentioned and also that the make of motorhome to be insured was significant (Hymer OK, but Hobby not), which I thought a bit odd.

 

The cover I was provided with when I imported my own Hobby was also backed by the NIG and, because I was concerned over the legality issue, I asked the UK insurance provider to discuss this with the underwriters. I was told subsequently that this had been done and the underwriters had confirmed that everything was above board.

 

I'm not going into detail over my later dialogue with my UK insurance provider, when I sought straight answers about the scope and validity of the policy they had sold me. But, basically, there was an initial "Don't worry about it, Dearie" phone-call and, when I insisted on a written reply to my original letter, lengthy delays requiring prompting on my part and excuses on theirs. I couldn't decide whether or not the final response was deliberately ambiguous (it certainly wasn't literate!) and, because I thought I had been messed about with, I switched my motorhome insurance to another provider.

 

It really is important that this is resolved. Anyone contemplating importing a motorhome from the Continent will (naturally enough) wish to insure his/her expensive vehicle. If, after contacting several UK insurance providers and finding that these won't insure their motorhome while it's on the Continental leg of its trip to the UK, they find a UK provider that will offer exactly what they have been seeking, then they are most unlikely to challenge whether the insurance being offered is valid.

 

Despite What Mel E has said and his particular expertise when it comes to the nuts-and-bolts of motorhome importing, there will always remain in people's minds the feeling that MotorhomeWise and the NIG have found a way of providing legally valid Continental-dealership-to-UK-home-address fully comprehensive insurance, because that's what they'd like to believe. Well, I'd like to believe it too - just in case I decide to import another motorhome - but nobody has yet convinced me that it's possible.

[mark w]

Hi all,

 

well, it certainly is a hot topic this! I think I am sorted, as previous post, I own a large haulage fleet and the underwriters have agreed to cover the vehicle for its return to the UK on a comp basis, Of course folks I will get a covernote and hope, at least this will suffice, lets hope i do not need to test this out hey?

 

Thanks for the input from all.

 

Cheers

 

Mark

 

 

[donna miller]

Hi Derek

 

To be honest, I missed the bit in Mark's post that you have you outlined about not having to purchase the German cover. Obviously that scenario wasn't relevant to my input.

 

It's a legal requirement for temporary export plates to be purchased from the local German taxation office, the registration plates in Germany are issued to the owner, not the vehicle, so the plates are cancelled when the vehicle is sold. A dealer in Germany wouldn't be allowed to sell the van without the export plate, and I would assume the penalties are not worth the risk for the sake of 50 odd euros.

I really wouldn't like to comment on whether you would be able to get away with it in a private sale, but again, the owner would have to cancel their plate when the van was sold, so the authorities would know about it, and a van travelling the roads with no plates would surely attract the wrong attention.

 

 

Mark, as an afterthought, as you are a haulier, why not consider transporting your motorhome back here on a lowloader or tautliner, there's plenty of loads out to Germany, and you could still bring a part load back over and your GIT insurance could cover the van as it would be classed as freight.

 

[mark w]

Hi

 

yes, we could transport it back on a low loader very good thinking there!

maybe i could branch out and offer this for posters!

 

regards,

 

Mark

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

It's always been an option to have a haulage company collect your purchased-abroad motorhome from the vendor and transport it to your home address or to a UK point-of-entry. My UK dealer friend has done this in the past when he's bought a motorhome from Germany for his private use and preferred not to collect it himself or send one of his staff to get it. I think he said the cost of getting the thing from German dealer to UK port was around £900.

[Brian Kirby]

I've read all of this and I'm intrigued by one thing.  It is clear Donna is convinced she was fully insured on her return trips from Germany.  It is also clear that the German insurance covered the basic legal third party requirement.  What I don't quite follow though, is the basis on which the other elements of cover were provided by the UK broker.  What Donna says is clear enough, but when I tried to obtain cover for the European leg of my journey on a similar basis (i.e. third party from Germany and the balance of the normal "comprehensive" cover on the UK insurance), I was told this was not possible.

Is it possible there was a mistake somewhere?  Did Donna use some term that the insurers understood, but I did not use, and so got the wrong answer?  Or did Donna simply get what a number of us have been after - the Holy Grail of import insurance - where the third party risk is covered from abroad, and the fire, theft and accidental damage elements are covered from UK, being joined by the third party element when the vehicle is in UK. 

One further little nag also concerns me.  Does that German third party cover actually have validity once the vehicle leaves Germany?  It just seems odd that the UK third party element of the insurance is presumed necessary once the vehicle is in UK, so what about when it is in France, Belgium, or Luxembourg on its journey back?

Because the nature of the cover Donna obtained is so unusual, I assume the extent of the cover, and where/when the different parts would apply, must have been confirmed in writing?  I just wonder if Donna still has a copy of the broker's letter, and if so, could quote exactly what they said.  Armed with that information, it might help others to be a bit more specific in dealing with their own broker.

Sorry if this seems picky, but this is a public forum, and it seems important to fill in all the gaps where others may take verbal assurances from insurance brokers at face value, and then discover to their cost all was not quite as it seemed. 

I have been told of one such case, where a new motorhome was written off en route to UK and, despite his broker's verbal assurances to the contrary, when the driver claimed it was disallowed by the underwriter because the insurance was invalid outside UK.  He is/was in the process of suing the broker, in the hope that their PI insurer would settle in full.

[Derek Uzzell]

Brian:

 

You asked "Does that German third party cover actually have validity once the vehicle leaves Germany? It just seems odd that the UK third party element of the insurance is presumed necessary once the vehicle is in UK, so what about when it is in France, Belgium, or Luxembourg on its journey back?"

 

When it comes to exporting motorhomes from Germany, clearly any vehicle-related insurance cover obtained in that country would be of limited value to the exporter if the cover were only operative within German national boundaries.

 

The insurance documentation provided in Germany is a minimalist piece of green paper carrying the motorhome's temporary registration-number, category/make of vehicle, owner's name/address and the validity period of the 3rd-Party insurance cover. The document also defines the geographical scope of the cover: this is extensive and includes all the 'European' countries one might reasonably expect to enter on one's journey from German point-of-sale to one's ultimate destination.

 

So, if a UK motorhome 'personal importer' has obtained Germany-issued 3rd-Party cover, there's no legal requirement for that person to obtain supplementary insurance as far as 3rd-Party cover in 'outside Germany' countries (including the UK) is concerned.

 

The insurance Holy Grail for UK motorhome importers is not a combination product where a Continental country's insurance provider handles one element and a UK provider another. It's 'all risks' (ie. comprehensive) insurance cover via a UK provider, with the cover being valid from the Continental point-of-sale. That way one could (at least in principle) purchase a motorhome in any Continental country - not just Germany - and be confident of having comprehensive 'full house' insurance cover on one's journey driving the vehicle back to one's UK address.

 

What follows is an edited version of some correspondence I had with Mel Eastburn that might be of interest. (I've felt it prudent to sanitise it somewhat to cloak references to organisations/companies that might possibly cause Warners problems.)

 

This correspondence in 2006 with Mel E commenced by me copying to him the text of a letter I had sent to the UK insurance broker who had arranged my insurance when I imported my Hobby motorhome from Germany the previous year.

 

The letter went:

 

"On xxxxxx 2005 I wrote to you about obtaining comprehensive cover for a motorhome I would soon be importing from Germany (copy of letter enclosed).

 

I was advised that comprehensive insurance could be provided and, subsequent to my telling you the motorhome's chassis-number and the date from which I needed the insurance to commence, you issued me with a 30-day cover note (your letter xxxxxxxx refers). After the motorhome had been registered in the UK you replaced the cover note with a Certificate of Insurance in the normal way.

 

My perception of comprehensive motor insurance is that it comprises two elements - cover against Third Party risks and cover against vehicle-related risks (ie. fire, theft and accident damage). I am now reliably informed that, since EU insurance 'bonding' regulations were revised several years ago, UK motor insurers have not legally been in a position to offer the Third Party element of comprehensive insurance on vehicles that are not UK-registered. Assuming this advice is correct, I was certainly not made aware of the limitation at the time of purchasing the policy and there was no mention of it on the cover note nor within the Policy Details.

 

EU-wide cover against Third Party risks was provided to me by the compulsory insurance necessary for temporary registration of the motorhome in Germany. However, it needs emphasising that this cover was (as I said in my original letter to you) short term. My return to the UK was straightforward, but it is easy to envisage a scenario where an unforeseen event (illness, vehicle problem, etc.) could have delayed my journey home beyond the German insurance's expiry date. If this had happened I would have naturally assumed I would continue to be protected against Third Party risks for the remaining duration of your cover note. It now appears that this assumption may have been wrong.

 

I would be grateful for advice please on the following questions:

 

1. While I was driving my motorhome on German temporary-registration number plates, did the cover note you issued cover me legally against 'all risks' for the complete journey from the point-of-sale in Germany back to my home-address in the UK?

 

2. If so, does this mean that your underwriters have the necessary insurance bonding in place in EU countries outside the UK to enable them to offer Third Party cover legally on non-UK-registered vehicles?

 

3. If not, what risks were covered while I was abroad or in the UK?

 

4. If there was a UK geographical restriction, where was the boundary? (Basically, where does "abroad" stop and "the UK" begin? Would my motorhome have needed to be on terra firma at the UK ferry port for the vehicle to have been deemed "in the UK"?)"

 

My correspondence with Mel E. continued:

 

About a week later I had a phone call from a lady from the insurance brokerage assuring me that I had been "fully covered at all times". She said that, as it was universally acknowledged that members of the XX Club were really really safe drivers, her company had a special relationship with underwriters/insurance companies that meant they could provide policies for travel to countries that were often denied to other brokers.

 

On the 'safe XX Club drivers' point I managed to refrain from saying that, had the underwriters/insurance companies seen me (on a conversion-to-LHD vertical learning-curve) meandering wide-eyed along the Strasbourg autobahn's hard-shoulder, they would have rapidly revised that opinion downwards. However I did ask why the second factor should be relevant to my letter. This seemed to cause confusion, so I just requested that my four questions be answered specifically and in writing.

 

Although the cover-note originally sent me had the 'normal' 30-day duration, the lady from the insurance brokerage mentioned a limit of 14 days within which I had to bring the vehicle home after acquiring it in Germany. This limitation had been given to me verbally and I was well aware of it. It was just interesting that, although the brokerage obviously had the restriction on file, it had never been confirmed to me in writing.

 

Since then I've had a long telephone chat with a senior representative of another insurance brokerage well known for specialising in motorhome insurance. He advised me that a 'chassis number' cover-note without an accompanying Green Card would have had no insurance-cover validity abroad and his understanding was that no UK insurer was legally able to offer this combination. Even if 'my' brokers had been able to provide the fire/theft/accident-damage components of comprehensive insurance for a non-UK-registered motorhome being driven outside the UK, documentation would need to have been issued to the insured party indicating what risks were and were not covered. Neither a Green Card nor amended documentation was provided in my case.

 

I made the point to him that, from the outset, I had been pretty forceful with 'my' broker about them confirming that what they were offering me was 100% legal as I was wary of the legality myself. I couldn't (and still can't) see why they would have been prepared to provide a service that every other UK broker refused to provide if there was doubt over its legality. It's not as if the insurance premium was massive (in fact I thought it was cheap), so where was the profit for 'my' broker? Now they had a customer challenging the legality of what they had sold him, who almost certainly wouldn't re-insure through them and could choose to do their reputation harm if they confessed to a cock-up. I said I would inform him of 'my' broker's response to my questions as he was keen to know if they had somehow found a loophole in the regulations that he and other UK brokers believed to be iron-clad.

 

I quizzed him about the 3rd Party coverage implications if (say) his company had provided me with 'chassis number' comprehensive insurance that became operative once my imported motorhome had reached UK soil. Basically, if I had had an accident on the journey from Portsmouth to my home that involved a 3rd Party claim, would that claim have been handled by his brokerage and the UK insurance company underwriting the risk, or the German insurer? He believed that his brokerage/UK insurer would process the claim, but might well seek a contribution from the German insurer.

 

I also spoke to a motorhome dealer acquaintance who I knew had fetched several 'vans from Germany for his own use or on behalf of customers. He said he had relied on his 'trade-plate' insurance but, with hindsight, he wasn't sure about the validity of this practice. He added that he understood this was how a well-known motorhome importing 'agent' brought motorhomes into the UK.

 

I eventually received from 'my' insurance broker a reply to my letter saying (amongst other things):

 

"Based on the information you have provided, I am able to confirm that the NIG agreed full policy cover whilst your vehicle was transported from Germany to the UK, whilst on a chassis number. This agreement took place in July 2005. Unfortunately, no all insurers have the same vehicle of temporary cover whilst on a chassis number, some will restrict cover and the duration. However I am delighted to confirm that many of our panel members will allow such cover."

 

The 4 specific questions in my letter were answered thus:

 

Q1. While I was driving my motorhome on German temporary-registration number plates, did the cover note you issued cover me legally against 'all risks' for the complete journey from the point-of-sale in Germany back to my home-address in the UK?

 

A1. Whilst your vehicle was being transported from Germany the covernote issued to you covered you against all risks from point of sale until your return to the UK.

 

Q2. If so, does this mean that your underwriters have the necessary insurance bonding in place in EU countries outside the UK to enable them to offer Third Party cover legally on non-UK-registered vehicles?

 

A2. The NIG have representatives in the EU and Associated countries.

 

Q3. If not, what risks were covered while I was abroad or in the UK?

 

A3. The geographical restriction applies to the EU and Associated countries.

 

Q4. If there was a UK geographical restriction, where was the boundary? (Basically, where does "abroad" stop and "the UK" begin? Would my motorhome have needed to be on terra firma at the UK ferry port for the vehicle to have been deemed "in the UK"?)"

 

A4. Upon your return to the ferry port your vehicle would have been deemed as return to the UK.

 

I then got back in touch with Mel E, saying:

 

"I've now received a response from XXXXXX about the 'while in Germany' aspect of the comprehensive policy they provided me with last July.

 

On the face of it, the reply seems to conflict with what you (and YYYYY insurance brokers) have said about bonding/3rd-party cover. Conversely, the XXXXXX letter is hardly a paragon of unambiguity when it comes to the wording! Because of this it would be much simpler if I posted photo-copies to you of all the correspondence between me and XXXXXX on this subject. That way you would be fully in the picture and could form your own opinion."

[Mel E]

Donna,

 

I certainly didn't intend to appear patronising, so apologies if that's how it came across . . just as I'm sure you didn't intend to be quite so trenchant in your response. Just to clear the air:

 

1. This forum is sponsored by MMM who regularly advertise the availability of the Fact Sheet (10 2-column A4 pages covering everything you need to know about personal importation from the EU plus a 1-page supplement on the latest insurance situation).

 

2. The insurance position has been covered comprehensively on previous postings - how would Mark know? Whenever I go on a new forum my fist port of call is to the 'search' function.

 

3. I'm certainly one who has researched the situation.

- I have spoken (on several occasions) to both the ABI (Association of British Insurers) and the lead person on the topic at the Motor Insurers' Bureau (who manage the Bonding Fund).

- I am in fairly regular contact with 3 of the largest UK motorhome specialist brokers/intermediaries.

- I have read the relevant sections of both the 4th and 5th directives; I monitored the introduction of the 5th into UK Law over many months.

- I continue to update the Insurance Supplement (as I do the whole Fact Sheet) at frequent intervals.

 

4. I am aware that some brokers continued to offer comprehensive insurance from the foreign dealer for some time after the 4th Directive became UK Law. This was simply because they did not understand the position. The 4th Directive introduced no changes other than to permit cross-broder insurance (so a German Insurance company can provide cover to a British-based driver). None have done so because of the need for bonding, etc., in each country - most simply open up a UK, etc., subsidiary as the French Groupama or German AXA have done. It took some UK brokers and their insurers longer than others to spot the need for the bonding and some withdrew the facility later than others. My information is that the company who satisfied you no longer offer the facility.

 

5. Finally, my Fact Sheet Supplement has advised that the only legal course is to buy your foreign Third Party cover which provides cover automatically in any other EU country including the UK (although Germany is most often mentioned, the same applies from any other EU country) and try and obtain a special policy from a UK broker providing ONLY Comprehensive and explicitly cancelling the UK Third Party element and stating that the policy is only valid in association with a valid Third Party policy from the country of exportation.

 

6. However, the foul-up in the Fifth Directive makes this almost impossible. This is because UK (and European) Law has moved to set up registration databases. The UK database must have new/imported vehicle registration details entered within 10 days of registration and, I am told, has no provision to accept ONLY VIN numbers. I (and intermediaries I have spoken to) cannot see how this can work with a foreign import. It can now take 10 days or more to register the vehicle after its return to the UK because almost all imports are now inspected by the DVLA or VOSA.

 

So what can you do?

 

The answer is one of the following:

 

- risk the journey on Third Party only. Remember you are only at financial risk if you cause / partially cause an accident or if the guilty driver either scarpers or is uninsured or underinsured. Uninsured driving is much less common on the Continent. However, it is still a big risk on, say, £50K's worth of new motorhome.

 

- get it delivered on a low loader, either to your home address or to the Continental Port of Exit (but check you have full cover once you land in the UK). I imagine if your ferry sinks, the cover may be poor but you will have bigger worries.

 

- choose your dealer for nearness to the UK. You don't have to go all the way to Germany - yes, you'll save a bit more than in France but soon fritter the savings away getting it back to the UK.

 

Hope that helps!

 

Mel E

====

[Brian Kirby]

I have read Derek's and Mel's lengthy and highly informative responses.  Thank you both. 

However, I remain puzzled by this "export" insurance.  Surely the requirement for cross bonding applies equally to German insurers as to UK insurers?  If so, and on the basis that even the large pan European insurers with offices in UK have refrained from obtaining bonding necessary to insure unregistered vehicles outside UK, how have they been able to do so for transits between other European countries? 

Or, does the key to this really lie in the temporary "export" registration of the vehicle which, having been registered (albeit temporarily) can then legally be insured in its country of origin, for passage to other countries?

In other words, that we can all insure vehicles for export provided they are first registered - even if that registration is temporary - but none of us can insure "non-resident" vehicles that we are importing, until they are on "home soil", in whatever country.

[Abb]

 

Location: W.Midland I have just imported a new Rapido M983 from France. The French dealer was unable to find anyone to insure me not even on 3rd P.

UK insurer could only offer comprehensive insurance once on British soil.

The solution for me was for the dealer to drive the van to the port of St-Malo, cross the water uninsured, then I'm ok from the port of Prtsmouth-home where the van is parked now awaiting registration.

Previously I imported a Hymer from Germany. Arrived to Germany on Friday 11am expecting to get the van registered etc...What I didn't know was that German registration offices close Friday at mid-day.

I had to be back in UK by Sunday night and could not wait till the Monday to do the registration. The German dealer offered me their trade plate to drive to UK on the condition that I send them back on Monday morning by express DHL service.

I also exported a Winesberg motorhome from Germany again, but this time I did not bother with UK insurance untill I got home. I travelled all the way with a 3rd party german Insurance that the dealer provided with the temp registration for a 250 Euro covering all of the EU includidg UK.

I was not aware of all this complicated insurance business at all.

I dealt with each case as the circumstances dictated. Ignorance sometimes is a bliss!

Now knowing what I know from this debate, would I import another motorhome? I doubt it. I rather give up motorcaraving altogether.

[Derek Uzzell]

Brian:

 

Yes, your 4th paragraph accurately summarises the situation. The German system permits 3rd-Party insurance to be provided for a German-registered vehicle (even though the duration of the registration period may be only a few days) and the geographical scope of that insurance can (and does) extend beyond German national boundaries. Once the vehicle reaches the UK, then a UK-based insurance provider can legally provide cover.

 

Motor insurance infrastructure does vary from country to country and, although one might reasonably assume that the German process could be replicated in France, Spain, the UK, etc., I don't know if that's actually so. Importing a vehicle into the UK from the Continent by driving the vehicle to this country is a minority activity in itself, but it's hard to imagine someone wishing to do the opposite and, say, visit the UK with the purpose of purchasing a vehicle here and then driving it to their home on the Continent.

 

I believe you yourself did what Abb has just done - buy a motorhome in France, have the dealer deliver it to a ferry port, accept that the vehicle would be uninsured during the Channel crossing, and then have UK-issued comprehensive insurance apply from the moment that the motorhome rolled off the boat on to UK soil. Presumably a temporary-registration/short-term insurance procedure similar to that available in Germany is not found in France?

 

I'm a tad wary of the legality of the trade-plate method used when Abb imported his Hymer. When I was exploring how I might best insure my Hobby on its return trip from Germany, it was suggested by a UK motorhome dealer acquaintance that I might borrow a set of trade-plates from him, take them with me to Germany and drive the vehicle home with the plates attached to the vehicle.

 

I did look briefly at what UK trade-plates allowed and, for a private vehicle-owner unconnected to the 'trader' who owned the trade-plates, it seemed doubtful that this option (though superficially very attractive!) was legal. I felt that it might have been OK for the dealer (or one of his staff) to go to Germany, pick up a motorhome and then drive it back to the UK on trade-plates, but not for me to do it. I don't know if the rules/scope of Continental trade-plates match those of UK trade-plates but, if so, then I'd have similar misgivings.

 

The risk - just as we've seen with UK insurance brokers providing questionable cover due to misunderstandings - is that, if there is any question of doubt about insurance validity, then the impact of such grey areas will be unpredictable in the event of an accident occurring. While I can completely understand Abb accepting the German dealer's offer of trade-plates (I know full well I'd have done likewise!), I'd have been awfully jittery while I was driving the motorhome home.

 

[Mel E]

Brian,

 

It's quite straightforward: buy Third Party insurance in any EU country on a vehicle registered in that country and it is valid for travel to/through any other EU country and no Green Card is now needed (though it's always worth checking the recent accession states).

 

BUT you can only LEGALLY buy such TP Cover in the country of the vehicle's registration - hence the TP cover in association with temp Geman plates. You CANNOT buy TP Cover in the UK on a German registered vehicle (or vice versa).

 

Of course, as a previous post about France shows, that does not mean that anyone will necessarily sell you TP Cover.

 

Mel E

====

 

[Brian Kirby]

Thanks again Derek and Mel.  Derek is right, our first (LHD Fiat/Burstner) van was delivered by the dealer; as it happened not to the docks, but to the chunnel terminal, which was only a few hundred metres from his premises.  If you discount tunnel fires, and clouting the sides of the waggon while driving on, I guess the risks are negligible!  The van was insured FC as soon (I think) as it entered UK territory, so I assume accidents driving off the waggon would have been covered.  Oh, and the French dealer (Calais Caravanes) said he was unable to source any insurance for us in France, third party or comp.

It was the ability of the Germans to offer this insurance when apparently we could not that was puzzling me, until I stopped focusing in the insurance as the issue, and began to grasp that the key was probably registration.  It's just a matter of getting the telescope the right way round!  All is now clear, at least to me, so thanks again.

Second (LHD Ford/Hobby) van came from Germany, but I used Bundesvan to import it, because I couldn't solve the insurance conundrum to my satisfaction.  Since I already knew what I wanted the process was very straightforward.  The van was delivered to the front door when they said it would be, all taxed and registered, all payments were made in Sterling, and if I paid more than I might have by going to Germany I couldn't see where.  I also saved the time and cost of going to Germany to place the order (I wouldn't buy blind over the internet, not all dealers are what their websites make them look!), and again to collect the van, I had no insurance uncertainty, and was able to leave communication with the dealer to someone whose German is infinitely better than mine.  Until the insurance issue is finally sorted, a personal import agent seems to offer a valuable numerous advantages and we still saved £5,000 on the UK price for the same van on a RHD chassis.

[Derek Uzzell]

Despite Mel E's advice to Donna earlier in this thread - "My information is that the company who satisfied you no longer offer the facility" - it would appear from Mark W's postings that MotorCaravanWise (the company in question) IS still offering comprehensive insurance for non-UK-registered motorhomes while they are being driven abroad, plus the advice that this cover removes the need to obtain 3rd-Party insurance from the 'foreign' end.

 

When there's been controversy in the past over questionable service-provision by an insurance brokerage, the brokerage itself (once made aware of the issue) has sometimes been prepared to post to the forum to clarify matters. Would it be worthwhile e-mailing MotorCaravanWise, direct them to this thread and suggest that their comments would be of value?