Intermittent Starting Problem - Ducato 2.3 x250

[tilerdon]

We bought a 2008 Swift Mondial in early June this year for our Daughter. A Ducato 2.3 130 Multijet, a private purchase. There were no signs of any issues as we spent several days staying at a couple of sites on the way home nor on later occasions whilst we moved it around whilst equipping it. She has now attempted to go away on touring holidays on 3 occasions and each time within a day or two of leaving home the vehicle has been returned to a Fiat Professional Workshop on the back of a recovery vehicle. Whilst travelling there have been no signs of any issues whatsoever, the vehicle purrs along quite happily at all speeds but when it comes to restarting, the engine cranks but fails to fire.

On the first occasion, this happened as soon as she had checked in at a site whilst still outside the site office, on the other two occasions when recovery was required she had spent a night on site and was preparing to leave on the following morning. Having just retrieved it from the workshop last Monday and spent 2 nights on site with repetitive successful trial starts, she returned home only to find that on Thursday morning that once more it would not start but one hour later it started quite happily.

On the first occasion,the RAC diagnosed a faulty Fuel Regulator. The Fiat Workshop confirmed this diagnosis and fitted a new one and all appeared to be well. She travelled about 60 miles to site with one stop on the way but the following morning it failed to start. On this occasion the roadside technician got the engine running by hitting the underside of the fuel tank with the handle of his screwdriver during the 10 seconds after turning on the ignition. He diagnosed a faulty low pressure fuel pump. Once more the Fiat Workshop concurred and fitted a new pump. Again all seemed well, the vehicle was started and stopped several times and eventually she set off for the Western Isles. After several stop/starts en-route and 2 overnight stops, once more the engine turned but wouldn't start. This time the technician offered no specific diagnosis and the vehicle was recovered some 300 miles. On arrival at the workshop, the vehicle started but the following day having not been moved anywhere from its position on the previous day, it once more failed to start. The Fiat Workshop reported to us that they had sent the OBD codes to Fiat for interpretation and Fiat suggested that they change the Fuel Pump Relay. This they did and once again the fault appeared to have been rectified until this most recent temporary failure.

 

Only when I came to look at things myself after this most recent failure at home did I notice certain possibly relevant things. I should say at this point that I have little knowledge of modern diesel engines or fuel injection systems so some of my thoughts may be irrelevant

Firstly, at some point in this whole process the plastic cyclinder head cover has been removed and has not been replaced. This of course leaves the injectors bare and visible for examination. It also showed water laying in the "trough" in which the injectors are located. It had rained on Wednesday night. At this point I noticed that the outer insulation on the cables to the connectors on the injectors did not meet the connectors themselves. At some point in the vehicle's life fabric insulation tape of some sort had been used to close the gaps but this had unravelled and the individual conductors to the connector were visible and the opening into the connectors themselves wer pointing upwards and open to catch any water that may come their way.

 

After leaving the bonnet open with a fairly fresh breeze blowing across the engine and the sun beating down on it for about an hour the engine started. The significant difference was that on turning on the ignition, I heard the click from the floor between the seats and the sound of the low pressure pump running. I had not heard this on previous attempts to start, though I had listened for it.

 

I covered the engine with a plastic sheet and although it rained again on Thrursday night, the engine started happily on Friday morning and has done since. I did at this point notice that there was water on top of my plastic sheet and on further examination realised why. The vehicle, although it is RHD is fitted with an LHD bonnet so the air intake on the bonnet lid itself does not meet with the air intake box under the scuttle but merely ventilates the whole engine compartment and of course tips any water entering through the bonnet grilles onto the cylinder head and also I imagine onto the alternator located behind and below. I find it hard to believe that after 10 years with a full service record that this build issue has never been noticed.

 

As someone mentioned in another thread, it would appear that the technicians rely far too much on the codes they receive from the OBD and apply no intelligent reasoning to the source of a continuing problem, merely swapping components in the hope that one will fix it.

I'm looking for an informed opinion. Looking at the wiring schematic it is a voltage on pin 20 of the ECU that energises the Fuel Pump relay when the ignition is switched on. Assuming this voltage exists then either a corroded connector or a broken cable are the only things that could prevent the pump from running sometimes and not others. But could it be that the ECU can detect a short or open circuit at the injectors caused by water in the connector and therefore not raise the voltage on pin 20; there seems little point in pressurising the system if the ECU kows the engine will not start for some other reason. Perhaps the wind and sun dried out the connectors sufficiently to remove the offending issue.

 

I do know that on the first and second occasions of the failure that the engine cover was in place, I'm unsure whether it was there or not on the third occasion but it had rained overnight that time.

 

In terms of the vehicle history, we know that it has spent most of its life very close to the East Coast and hence a relatively corrosive atmosphere and that during the year prior to us buying it that it had only covered about 30 miles. The total mileage is just over 30,000.

 

I know this is a very lengthy explanation but I hope it allows some knowledgeable person to assist.

 

 

 

[Deneb]

Very briefly, no doubt some other contributors will expand:

 

A Ducato of that age may well never have been fitted with an engine cover.

 

Water leaks onto the engine and other components in the engine bay via the scuttle are a well known issue on the X250 vans of that age. Google will reveal the issues and some of the DIY and other rectification work that owners have undertaken to (try and) improve matters.

 

The bonnet not aligning with the air intake would make me suspicious that it has been replaced for some reason.

 

Irrespective of the water issues, your description of the starting problems could suggest an earthing problem - also well known on these vans.

 

Try connecting a heavy duty jump start cable between a chassis earth and the engine. If it resolves the problem look to replace the braided earth leads between the engine/gearbox and the body. Even if they look OK to the naked eye, they can still be in poor condition and cause all sorts of issues that simply relying on OBD codes will result in lazy mechanics going off on wild goose chases. In fact, on a 2007 van I would suggest it could be good preventative maintenance to replace them anyway.

[tilerdon]

Deneb - 2018-08-28 5:31 PM

 

Very briefly, no doubt some other contributors will expand:

 

A Ducato of that age may well never have been fitted with an engine cover.

 

Water leaks onto the engine and other components in the engine bay via the scuttle are a well known issue on the X250 vans of that age. Google will reveal the issues and some of the DIY and other rectification work that owners have undertaken to (try and) improve matters.

 

The bonnet not aligning with the air intake would make me suspicious that it has been replaced for some reason.

 

Irrespective of the water issues, your description of the starting problems could suggest an earthing problem - also well known on these vans.

 

Try connecting a heavy duty jump start cable between a chassis earth and the engine. If it resolves the problem look to replace the braided earth leads between the engine/gearbox and the body. Even if they look OK to the naked eye, they can still be in poor condition and cause all sorts of issues that simply relying on OBD codes will result in lazy mechanics going off on wild goose chases. In fact, on a 2007 van I would suggest it could be good preventative maintenance to replace them anyway.

 

 

 

We know the engine cover was there as we have a photo of the engine bay showing it.

 

 

I made modifications to the scuttle on my 2008 Autotrail to provide drainage but it is not necessary here as there is a 30mm (ish) pipe going from the driver's side of the scuttle into the offside wheel arch.

 

 

I've considered the possibility of a bonnet replacement but the likelihood of finding a LHD one is low and if a previous owner had managed to source one from a breaker it is unlikely that they would have gone to the expense of replacing the very expensive Mondial decal. I also have a report from another dealer that they reveived a brand new motorhome with the wrong bonnet fitted. So it doesn't seem unreasonable to believe that it was a build issue - but the jury is still out on that one.

 

 

I take note of your suggestions regarding the earthing strap and will mention this to the workshop manager when we meet later this week

[euroserv]

Hello,

 

If the issue was with the earth lead, it would not turn over strongly. In even mild cases of poor earth, the demand from the starter motor will be such that other systems will be unable to complete self checks without errors and the starter will not be allowed to run. It is never a bad idea to upgrade the earth cable but at this point it is not the problem.

 

The fault is definitely going to be wiring and the first place to check is under the fuse box. There is a blue connector that is known by the trade as 'rusty junction'. This needs to be examined and any corrosion in the contacts needs to be dealt with. After that; the wiring for the low pressure pump needs to be traced and checked for abrasion due to the intermittent nature of the fault. The fuel pump is supposed to run for about 20 seconds after the key is turned on and if the engine is not started; it switches off. I have seen this fault once before and while the blue connector was fine, there were a couple of wires in the bundle beneath the nearside headlamp that had rubbed together and were green and furry. A quick repair and all was well. I have also had a vehicle that had an immobiliser fault. The dealer wanted to replace the body computer but we found a broken wire in the loom in the same area as above that controlled the main ecu 'wake up' sent from the body computer under the dash. Again; once it was found it was a simple repair but it took a long time to find and a lot of studying of wiring diagrams.

If the dealer that you are using does not have an electrical guru that can solve problems like these; they have access to Fiat technical people that are absolutely brilliant and should be making use of them.

 

[tilerdon]

Thanks Nick - I was hoping you would respond as I have seen the valuable help you have given other members on here.

 

The dealer did contact Fiat Technical when they obtained diagnostics that they did not understand to which Fiat responded that they should change the Fuel Pump Relay. I'm wondering if there is any way that a relay failure would show any different characteristics to that of a broken conductor or corroded contact

 

[andy mccord]

Yes I can confirm I had a L/H/D air intake fitted to my RHD Adria, i noticed something was wrong by the bonnel alignment, Fiat supplied me with a RHD intake...all sorted

 

Andy