Colinsburgh Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 2010 Rapido 966 on Fiat Ducato 2.3, 130. I'm having problems with losing charge to the batteries while driving. On investigation I see that the on board control panel shows only 13.8v when idling with no difference at 2000 revs. If I switch on the lights and wipers this drops to about 13.6v and to about 13.1v when the fridge is also on. These readings are confirmed by a multi meter connected to the batteries. The panel also shows that with the engine running and with the fridge on there is a 7 amp draw on the batteries which immediately rises to +7 amps when the fridge is switched off. The relay on the back of the fridge is working as it should. I have cleaned and remade all connections and fitted an additional engine earth strap. When on hook up or solar the batteries charge at 14.3v as shown on the control panel (14.4v on the multi meter.) Is there any other checks I should try before arranging to have the alternator checked? Thanks, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirou Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 Not a solution, just my experience with alternator failure. A friend had it fail a few weeks ago on his car and there was no charging going on at all. Car simply turned off devices gradually then shut down as voltage dropped. We hooked it up to my car and left it to charge for about 15 min and that was enough to start and run the engine for only about 1 min. He guessed it failed the same day as he noticed the warning light going to work in the morning. In the afternoon he drove for another 10-15km before getting stuck in some parking lot. I don't know if there is such a thing as gradual failure in alternators with lowering output so your simptoms might suggest something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 Hi Peter, You do not mention checking the voltage across the starter battery terminals, with the engine running. May I suggest that you do this with your multimeter before taking any further action. Take the reading first with all habitation electrics OFF, and then apply some load, by switching ON the vehicle heater fan at full speed, and turning the headlights ON.. I would expect a small drop in voltage, but not to the level that you are getting on the habitation battery. If you get a good results with the above tests, the connection to the habitation battery is still suspect, despite your cleaning of connections. From your post and the nature of the fault, I suspect that you may have a CBE system, where there is only one connection from the habitation electrics, to the vehicle battery positive. A previous thread with the same problem as yours led to a faulty "boite de securite". If your vehicle has such an item, try bridging the M6 terminal studs with a suitable piece of wire. (A short length of 2.5 sq mm mains or similar cable would suffice for testing.) If you have a "boite de securite" in the connection from the vehicle battery and, the test described improves the charging voltage at the habitation battery, you will know where your problem lies. The originator of the previous thread found poor quality soldering and signs of overheating on the back of the "boite de securite " PCB. He repaired the PCB. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 spirou - 2018-09-16 6:44 PM Not a solution, just my experience with alternator failure. A friend had it fail a few weeks ago on his car and there was no charging going on at all. Car simply turned off devices gradually then shut down as voltage dropped. We hooked it up to my car and left it to charge for about 15 min and that was enough to start and run the engine for only about 1 min. He guessed it failed the same day as he noticed the warning light going to work in the morning. In the afternoon he drove for another 10-15km before getting stuck in some parking lot. I don't know if there is such a thing as gradual failure in alternators with lowering output so your simptoms might suggest something else. My 50+ years of experience with vehicle alternators, suggests sudden rather than gradual failure. It is usually down to the brushes wearing out, so they no longer make contact with the slip rings. However in the very early days of alternators, I retro fitted a Lucas alternator kit to my first vehicle, a Land Rover. I was troubled by drop of output after about 45 minutes driving at night. I eventually diagnosed the drive belt slipping as it warmed up from engine heat, coupled with the extra load from the headlights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 Colinsburgh, The Alternator is clearly working as when you turn the Fridge to 12v operation the Alternator is able to supply 7amps of the 15 to 19 amp Fridge draw. 13.8v is also a sign it is operational and not that far adrift of what we would expect for a Rapido. However, I would expect 13.8v with the Fridge on, not as low as 13.1v. A drop down that low seems excessive and suggests poor Starter battery connections, that is where the 'take off' is for the Habitation charge is picked up, or that something is placing a huge load on the Alternator? Or maybe both? Are you sure your batteries are good? How many are there, make, age and technology, etc? Try taking one habitation battery out of circuit (50% cut in load) to see if the voltage rises? If the batteries are perfect, young and not AGM's, the Starter battery connections/wiring all good then as AlanB suggests it could be a partially burnt Split Charge relay either in the DSxxx or as Alan B suggests the optional Boite de securite relay unit which is prone to overload if the habitation area batteries are used beyond their life time or the battery bank is over large, or both. You will find pictures of the CBE relay here : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/add-a-second-battery.php and the more at the bottom of this page : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/wiring-your-camper.php It is possible that the Alternator body is not earthed very well on the engine block, I think there are three casting to casting mating points before there is 'contact' with the Engine Block, so maybe try and Earth the Alternator body with a jump lead? Motorhome alternators tend not to cover the same mileages as Cars and vans so rarely fail from Brush wear, almost always overload of the regulator/rectifier assembly by poor batteries or over large battery bank. Only one of the many motorhome Alternators we rebuilt had brush/bearing issues, and that was from a vehicle 29 years old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinsburgh Posted September 17, 2018 Author Share Posted September 17, 2018 Thanks all for the info and suggestions. My current set up is : CBE PC-200RO control panel. CBE DS 520RA 12v distribution box. CBE CB516 charger 2 x LFD90 on leisure side. 1 x LFD90 on starter battery. All batteries new as of Sept last year. Dealer added second leisure battery 6months from new in 2010. These were Banner make. He did not inform me of any changes made to the setup nor was I charged for anything other than the battery and labour. I installed a 100w solar panel in 2013. The regulator is wired via the CBE distribution box as per CBE instructions. I renewed all three batteries last Sept after the two Banner Leisure batteries began using a lot of fluid. I thought after seven years of use it was wise to renew all three. Everything seemed OK until I was away 3 weeks ago when I noticed, on arrival at our destination after a 4 hour drive, that the fridge wasn't as cool as normal and both batteries where showing only 12.6v state of charge. (The van has been idle all summer due to my illness. Everything was OK when last used at Easter) As suggested I have checked the starter battery, engine running, with a multi meter. It more or less mimics the leisure battery voltage readings in all scenarios. The control panel displays the alternator symbol and the "battery parallel" symbol when the engine is running. I have also taken out each of the leisure batteries in turn but the readings remain the same in all configurations. All the batteries seem to be holding charge as they were fully charged before our last trip despite the solar panel having been disconnected during the summer. The mains electric was connected for 24hrs to cool fridge and it would have topped up the batteries at the same time. Visual inspection of the12v distribution board shows no obvious burning on the board or connections. I can see no evidence of a boite de securite having been fitted. All the fuses at the starter battery look good and the connections are clean and tight. I haven't tried earthing the alternator yet. I'll try that when it stops raining here in sunny East Neuk of Fife. Sorry this is so long. Any further suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinsburgh Posted September 17, 2018 Author Share Posted September 17, 2018 Hello All, I've now managed to earth the alternator to the body. Maybe not best of earths as the alternator is a devil to get to on this A Class van. The readings now show an improvement. While the voltage readings on starter and leisure batteries remain the same i.e. 13.1v with the engine running and the fridge on, the control panel Amps reading shows a steady +1.5 amps at the leisure battery. Seems that a bad earth could be the problem. Not sure why the voltage didn't improve though. Thanks Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 Peter, As you are reading similar voltages across both habitation and starter batteries, it may be worth disconnecting the habitation electrics by removing the fuse 50A in the connection to the starter battery. The fuse may be an inline type close to the starter battery, or could be incorporated in an undiscovered boite de securite. Checking the voltage developed across the starter battery with the above fuse removed, and the engine running, would eliminate the possibility of any excessive load in the habitation electrics affecting the reading. The readings given by your meter are plausible, but I have access to four digital multimeters which all return different readings when applied to vehicle electrics, where 0.1V may be significant. Could you check the battery charging voltage on a different vehicle using your meter? This would eliminate meter error. If you are still reading a low voltage at the starter battery, there is the possibility of of damaged vehicle wiring causing a resistive earth fault on the D+ connection between the alternator and the warning light. I do not know what access to the alternator is like on your vehicle, but if anything like that on my 2.8JTD, not easy. Probably best to try Allan's suggestion of a jump lead next. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 Colinsburgh - 2018-09-17 2:53 PM Hello All, I've now managed to earth the alternator to the body. Maybe not best of earths as the alternator is a devil to get to on this A Class van. The readings now show an improvement. While the voltage readings on starter and leisure batteries remain the same i.e. 13.1v with the engine running and the fridge on, the control panel Amps reading shows a steady +1.5 amps at the leisure battery. Seems that a bad earth could be the problem. Not sure why the voltage didn't improve though. Thanks Peter I would have expected a rise in voltage as well? I guess it is possible that the Alternator voltage regulator has an issue, but never known that before? Normally on a motorhome they are good or burn out, not in 'the middle'. With the Jump lead as an extra Earth have you tried disconnecting the CBE connector/Fuse at the Starter battery to take that load out of the equation altogether? If it was me, I would now remove the habitation charging/Fridge load and focus on getting 14.4v at the Starter battery, before going any further. At the bottom of this page is a guide to trouble shooting these types of issues, it might help? : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/add-a-second-battery.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinsburgh Posted September 17, 2018 Author Share Posted September 17, 2018 Hello Again Some progress at last. My multi meter shows 14.3v charging on my other vehicle. So seems to be within acceptable parameters for this problem. I isolated the habitation side of the electrics as suggested - now I get 14.1v at the starter battery at 1500 revs. So I then disconnected and cleaned all the positive connections at the starter battery and reconnected. I'm now getting 14.1v at the starter battery at 1500revs and 13.9v when the fridge is switched on. The reading at the leisure batteries is still low at 13.1v with the fridge on. The readings at the control panel are now nonsense so I suppose I'll have to recalibrate the panel. Looks like I'll have to check all the earths and check all the habitation side connections again and do a load test on the batteries just to be sure. Thanks every one for the guidance and explanations - I couldn't have made progress without you. Much appreciated, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 Peter, That looks like good news, as you do not seem to have a faulty alternator. Just a thought about something that you may have already checked. That is the negative connection between the two batteries, either directly or via connections to the chassis. It is an essential part of the fridge and B2 charging circuits. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinsburgh Posted September 17, 2018 Author Share Posted September 17, 2018 Hello Alanb The one negative/earth connection I haven't checked is that between the leisure batteries and the and the chassis. And that's because I can't find it. The batteries and the 12v distribution box are in the garage cabinet work just behind the rear axle. All the cabling disappears into a void below the beds and low level cupboards. To make things more difficult the waste tank sits directly below this void and close up to the axle. So looks like I'll have to get underneath and see what's there. All that is for another day though. My Consultant called with results from some tests last week and cleared me for going abroad. So we'll be jetting off somewhere this week to make up for the loss of our usual 5/6 week summer trip in the motorhome. I'll get back to the problem when I get back. Thanks, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 Peter, To avoid any confusion the connection does not need to go directly between the two battery negative terminals. It could for instance run from the DS520 6mm -ve stud to starter battery negative or chassis. Enjoy your holiday. We had to delay our trips to Scotland this year, after surgery on my wife's shoulder to repair torn rotator cuff muscles torn as a result of a fall earlier this year. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 Colinsburgh - 2018-09-17 6:44 PM The one negative/earth connection I haven't checked is that between the leisure batteries and the and the chassis. And that's because I can't find it. The batteries and the 12v distribution box are in the garage cabinet work just behind the rear axle. All the cabling disappears into a void below the beds and low level cupboards. To make things more difficult the waste tank sits directly below this void and close up to the axle. So looks like I'll have to get underneath and see what's there. Thanks, Peter Rather than get underneath to check the Earths, how about running a test by clamping the Jump leads end to end and clip one end on the Habitation battery Negative/Earth and the other end running down the van onto the Starter battery Negative? The best motorhome builders don't trust the chassis, which remember is often just bolted on sections prone to corrosion, but run Negative/Earth cables direct battery to battery, which we would suggest you do anyway with everything being so far away from the Alternator. Suggest you also read the end of this thread, page 4 on wards, on improving Alternator charging, which actually features a Rapido : https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Yet-another-battery-question/50035/91/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinsburgh Posted September 18, 2018 Author Share Posted September 18, 2018 Hello All, Thanks for the info and previous help. I will get round to upgrading the cabling after I get back from a last minute trip. I'll update on the outcome when I get it all sorted out but might be 4/5 weeks before I can do that. Thanks again to everyone for the help and guidance. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinsburgh Posted October 24, 2018 Author Share Posted October 24, 2018 Hello, I've now managed to rewire the earth connections as suggested in previous posts. I'm now getting readings across all batteries of 14.2v with engine running and 13.7v with engine running and fridge on. So a good result. Thanks again for all suggestions and help. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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