Cliffy Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Winter is around the corner we were considering keeping "Out and About" in to early November, there maybe frost around and some days we may not be in the van for a few days. I have heard about winterised vans. Will our van be winterised. The fresh water tank is under the floor sandwiched between the floor and the wast water tank. The fresh water tank has a moulded thermal jacket around it and all the water supply pipes have domestic style pipe insulation around them. Is this what winterising is? Will it be safe to leave water in the Truma water heater, (which is under a settee) and pipes over night for a couple of nights when the temperature could get below 0 degrees overnight? The van is a 2004 AT Tracker EKS SE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 These two earlier forum threads may be helpful http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/-fully-winterised-motorhome-my-a-/10077/ http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Winterised-Motorhomes/18461/#M198009 If you lived in a house that had its fresh-water reservoir outside, in the open air, protected from freezing temperatures only by a "moulded thermal jacket around it” and with the water-supply pipes from the reservoir protected by ordinary pipe-insulation, would you consider that house’s water system ‘winterised’? I’m guessing you would not. At an outside temperature of 0°C you should be safe enough regarding the Truma water heater and I would expect your Tracker’s water system to remain operable. Obviously the further below freezing the temperature falls and the longer the motorhome vehicle is exposed to seriously sub-zero temperatures, the more certain it will become that tanks and pipework will freeze up. For a motorhome’s water system to remain autonomously operational in very cold weather (ie. even when the motorhome is not connected to a mains hook-up), fresh- and waste-water tanks and all water-related pipework, drain valves and appliances need to be within the vehicle’s structure and need to be heatable by the motorhome’s own heating system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliffy Posted September 23, 2014 Author Share Posted September 23, 2014 I take it that's a no then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 The answer lies in the detailed specification of your van. However, most UK built vans are three season vans, not four season, albeit some seek to claim "winterisation" because they add a low powered 12V water heater to the tank to prevent it freezing. Vans with underslung fresh water tanks, albeit the tank and water pipes may be lagged, will not long withstand sub zero conditions. Vans with water tank heaters may, but only if there is also some form of trace heating installed beneath the insulation of the exposed water pipes. Insulation merely slows the rate at which heat is lost. Fresh water is supposed to be kept cold, so contains relatively little heat to start with. Subjected to sub zero temperatures, especially if there is wind (common in UK winters, I'm told :-)), that small amount of heat will be lost and the water will freeze - most probably in a pipe as they are the most vulnerable point. Consider also that when driving in cold weather the tank and pipes will be subjected to a 60 or so MPH air-blast under the van, so if you move on cold days you may well arrive with a freeze-up even if you left with all systems working. But, not all winters are cold, so some years you may get away with it, others not. It is impossible to be categorical, it is just a matter of how the year goes, and how your van is equipped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 2 pics of a properly winterised van: the clean underside devoid of tanks and piping and then the tanks, piping and even the waste valve in a heated compartment in the double floor (even heated while driving via an Alde heat exchanger). Compare that to the mess of tankage and assorted piping underslung cheaply beneath the typical British van. As an aside I think that Bailey missed the chance to build the first British vans fit for the European market. With their composite construction, Al-Ko chassis and Alde heating wouldn't it have been great if (rather than that ugly-to-my-eyes ultra low line look) they had raised the roof lines a bit and built upon a proper 300mm double floor containing all the systems. Could have been a real winner - although admittedly they're not doing so badly now.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billggski Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 Wind chill is not a factor in cooling inanimate objects. If the ambient temperature is 1C then the wind is also 1C and no matter how fast it blows it doesn't get colder. We feel colder when the wind blows because we are trying to keep warm and the wind takes the heat away from our skin quicker because of the temperature difference. I see a number of MH's on ski resorts and all seem to be hooked up, some get snowed in, but the best I saw was one where after a thaw and freeze the wheels were frozen to the ground and it couldn't move. I was thinking of trying skiing in Scotland this winter, that will be a test of wind chill! ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 Billggski - 2014-09-24 9:12 AM Wind chill is not a factor in cooling inanimate objects. If the ambient temperature is 1C then the wind is also 1C and no matter how fast it blows it doesn't get colder................ This is true, but does not the velocity of the wind mean that it acts as a more efficient means of heat exchange? Because the air is continually being changed, that next to the warmer object can only momentarily warmed before being replaced with cold air, as opposed to when air is still, when the warmer object gathers a little pool of slightly warmer air around it, slowing the rate at which heat is transferred by conduction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 Billggski - 2014-09-24 9:12 AM Wind chill is not a factor in cooling inanimate objects. If the ambient temperature is 1C then the wind is also 1C and no matter how fast it blows it doesn't get colder... In practice, wind-chill may well have a damaging impact on a motorhome’s exposed water system. If the water system were at (say) 0°C and the ambient temperature were also 0°C, then wind chill would have no effect on the water system, as air passing over the tank while the motorhome was being driven would not produce cooling. However, if the water system’s temperature is higher than the ambient temperature, the air passing over the tank while the motorhome is being driven will cool the exposed water system. And the faster the flow of cold air the quicker the temperature of the water system will drop until the system reaches ambient temperature. As Brian points out, this could easily result in a motorhome’s water system that was operative when the vehicle was static (when exposed tanks and pipeworks were perhaps being heated) becoming frozen up during a cold-weather journey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billggski Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 I put that one in to see who would be first to reply, Brian or Derek. Both of course are correct, the warm layer around the tank would be disturbed and the contents would fall to the ambient temperature more quickly than it would otherwise. My point was that it wouldn't fall any further, which many folk think it would. What I forgot to mention is that keeping the waste tank valve open and putting a bucket underneath is one way of mitigating a lack of insulation. Just make sure the receptacle is wider at the top than the bottom so that you can tip the ice out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 at least with just an external waste tank you have half a chance. But both tanks fitted outside, a pretty lamentable design even in a 2/3 season van. I have had "fully" winterised vans such as described earlier in this thread. Heated double floor containing all tanks and services and they work well. have been up in Sweden in -25 and real cosy. But I would still use my non winterised van in winter as its well insulated (far a panel van) and fresh water tank inboard. would just use a bucket and leave waste tank open..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 Our camper is not winterised by modern standards..............hasn't stopped us camping in minus 15 degrees though...............even when the gas froze 8-)............. We now use the gas which doesn't freeze so easily.....propane/butane? :-S........... Just open your waste cock and put the heating on :D............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliffy Posted September 25, 2014 Author Share Posted September 25, 2014 Thanks for all the replies. I can see now what a winterised is. I suppose as we wont by going out at less than -5 deg overnight, we will just have to keep an eye on the fresh water whilst we are in it and drain it down when we are not and leave the waste valve open all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 dont forget if you have truma (or trauma as I call it) heating and temp not kept up in van it can empty the fresh tank if safety valve opens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 ...and also not forgetting that, depending on where and for how long, you want to be away for, you may not really need any water in your van's system anyway.. If you're pitched somewhere with facilities or are only away for a few days, if you're worried about pipes/tanks freezing,just use a separate water container... We'd continue to use our previous MH for long weekends away throughout the year and although it had onboard tanks, it wasn't double floored, so we tended to be a bit belt'n'braces and use it fully drained down through any really "dodgy" spells.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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