LGV to PHGV Up Plate

[fripp]

My motorhome has two weight plates. One from FIAT at 3650kg and one from the motorhome manufacturer at 3500kg. Has anybody managed to get DVLA to change the maximum permissible mass by sending them a picture of the higher weight plate with their V5 change request? Or have tried this and been rejected?

 

If you haven't then no need to post a reply, thanks.

[Brian Kirby]

No, but I have done the opposite, reducing the MAM from 3,700 kg to 3,500kg. This required the manufacturer (Hymer) to supply a duplicate VIN plate showing the reduced MAM together with a statement that this reduction had their approval. This was then submitted to DVLA with the existing V5C and a request for them to issue a new V5C showing the reduced "revenue weight", which DVLA did. The procedure for up-plating would be similar - although it would be possible to attach a statement by a recognised automotive engineer such as SV Tech - as evidence that the change is "safe".

 

You haven't said what make, model, or year your van is, and doing so might help you to get more relevant replies.

 

However, if a motorhome manufacturer has reduced the permissible chassis MAM as originally certified by Fiat, from 3,650kg to 3.500 kg, it will have been for one of two reasons. Either purely a marketing reason, to put that model within reach of drivers whose licences do not allow them to drive vehicles of greater weight than 3,500kg, or an engineering reason, possibly connected with a long rear overhang and an internal layout that tends to concentrate weight at the rear of the vehicle. This decision would have been taken in consultation with Fiat. This will have been done during Type Approval procedures, and there will be no obvious way to tell which of the two reasons governed the decision.

 

However, if the same van was also marketed by the manufacturer at 3,650kg it would be reasonable to infer that the reduced MAM probably was for marketing reasons, and it should then be easy to up-plate the vehicle.

 

Under Type Approval procedures motorhomes are manufactured in discrete stages, and it is the final stage manufacturer whose decision on MAM determines the weight at which it will be plated. You will therefore need either an independent automotive engineer, or the motorhome manufacturer, to sanction the up-plating and issue a revising VIN plate at the higher, 3,650kg, MAM.

 

Once you have that revising plate and the accompanying certification that the vehicle can safely be operated at that weight, DVLA will issue the revised V5C.

 

[lancepar]

All I can add is that our pre-loved MoHo when we bought it was registered as a PLG (3.5t). However I discovered it was a Maxi chassis so a letter with photo of the build number to Autotrail then confirmed it had been built as a PHGV (3.85t).

There was a Fiat/Autotrail VR Limited sticker giving the new Gross Vehicle Weight of 3.85t as well as the Fiat Vin plate in the engine bay.

 

This is the point when the grey cells let me down but I can confirm the revenue weight on the V5C was changed and a part refund of the duty was refunded, how I went about this I can't recall, sorry.

 

HTH

 

B-)

[fripp]

Brian Kirby - 2021-10-21 1:11 PM

 

You haven't said what make, model, or year your van is, and doing so might help you to get more relevant replies.

 

However, if a motorhome manufacturer has reduced the permissible chassis MAM as originally certified by Fiat, from 3,650kg to 3.500 kg, it will have been for one of two reasons. Either purely a marketing reason, to put that model within reach of drivers whose licences do not allow them to drive vehicles of greater weight than 3,500kg, or an engineering reason, possibly connected with a long rear overhang and an internal layout that tends to concentrate weight at the rear of the vehicle. This decision would have been taken in consultation with Fiat. This will have been done during Type Approval procedures, and there will be no obvious way to tell which of the two reasons governed the decision.

 

However, if the same van was also marketed by the manufacturer at 3,650kg it would be reasonable to infer that the reduced MAM probably was for marketing reasons, and it should then be easy to up-plate the vehicle.

 

 

The van is a 2020 Carado T334 on a FIAT chassis. And yes it is also sold with a 3650kg weight. I am 100% sure this is purely a marketing decision by Carado. I was just wondering whether anyone had made the request to DVLA with a picture of the FIAT weight plate and a copy of the FIAT COC which all states 3650kg, or for a similar vehicle. It seems responses from DVLA can be a bit random. And I have found it impossible to speak to anybody knowledgeable there.

[Keithl]

Fripp,

 

Under UK law the last VIN sticker takes precedence so the Carado sticker is the one you have to abide by. You will have to get this sticker amended before you can uprate your weight.

 

Try asking Carado for a replacement or if not contact SV Tech or Van Weight Engineering.

 

Keith.

[Derek Uzzell]

A Ducato X290 (2014 onwards) that has the standard camping-car 'light' chassis will have been 'plated' by Fiat at 3650kg. That maximum weight may be reduced to 3500kg by the motorhome converter at the 2nd build-stage (for driving licence reasons) or the Fiat 3650kg weight may be offered as an option (free or at a small charge) when the motorhome is initially ordered from the converter.

 

The DVLA will UK-register the motorhome according to whether the 2nd build-stage plate has 3500kg or 3650kg on it.

 

There has been previous forum discussion about DIY 'up-plating', but I don't recall anyone who has done this merely to gain the extra 150kg that moving from 3500kg to 3650kg would provide - and to go beyond the Fiat 3650kg limit the DVLA would definitely want more than just a photo.

 

I'm very doubtful that fripp will find anyone who has tried this. The best way to check if a photo of the Fiat plate would be sufficient would be to ask the DVLA.

[fripp]

Derek Uzzell - 2021-10-21 1:42 PM

 

I'm very doubtful that fripp will find anyone who has tried this. The best way to check if a photo of the Fiat plate would be sufficient would be to ask the DVLA.

 

Well my next route is just to make the V5 change submission, with the FIAT COC also, but I thought I would ask for anybody's previous experience. Asking the DVLA is of no use as I seem unable to get through to anybody who is knowledgeable at the DVLA. I have tried multiple routes.

 

 

[simian]

Derek Uzzell - 2021-10-21 1:42 PM

 

 

 

The DVLA will UK-register the motorhome according to whether the 2nd build-stage plate has 3500kg or 3650kg on it.

 

There has been previous forum discussion about DIY 'up-plating', but I don't recall anyone who has done this merely to gain the extra 150kg that moving from 3500kg to 3650kg would provide

As you know there are many 3500kg owners out there knowing they are probably over that limit. Some restricting

themselves to carrying 10L of water or foregoing a change of underwear, in the hope of getting below the magic 3500kg. A measly 150kg might be the just the margin they need to remain legal. But of course that advantage including the favourable £165 VED, has to be weighed against the requirement for a C1 Licence, and brings with it a few other well known HGV restrictions.

[Keithl]

simian - 2021-10-21 2:49 PM

...and brings with it a few other well known HGV restrictions.

Such as...

[Brian Kirby]

fripp - 2021-10-21 1:19 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2021-10-21 1:11 PM

 

You haven't said what make, model, or year your van is, and doing so might help you to get more relevant replies.

 

However, if a motorhome manufacturer has reduced the permissible chassis MAM as originally certified by Fiat, from 3,650kg to 3.500 kg, it will have been for one of two reasons. Either purely a marketing reason, to put that model within reach of drivers whose licences do not allow them to drive vehicles of greater weight than 3,500kg, or an engineering reason, possibly connected with a long rear overhang and an internal layout that tends to concentrate weight at the rear of the vehicle. This decision would have been taken in consultation with Fiat. This will have been done during Type Approval procedures, and there will be no obvious way to tell which of the two reasons governed the decision.

 

However, if the same van was also marketed by the manufacturer at 3,650kg it would be reasonable to infer that the reduced MAM probably was for marketing reasons, and it should then be easy to up-plate the vehicle.

 

The van is a 2020 Carado T334 on a FIAT chassis. And yes it is also sold with a 3650kg weight. I am 100% sure this is purely a marketing decision by Carado. I was just wondering whether anyone had made the request to DVLA with a picture of the FIAT weight plate and a copy of the FIAT COC which all states 3650kg, or for a similar vehicle. It seems responses from DVLA can be a bit random. And I have found it impossible to speak to anybody knowledgeable there.

My only other question is have you taken the van to a weighbridge fully laden (as for a trip) and, if so, what were the actual laden weight, the front axle load and the rear axle load?

 

This is a near 7.0 metre long van with a substantial "garage" behind the rear axle, so I would expect the rear axle to be where the existing chassis load limits would pinch. I believe the standard axle limits will be 1,850kg front and 2,000kg rear?

 

If either axle is near its limit at present, and you are finding the payload insufficient, there may be little to no practical gain from increasing the MAM - except a reduction in VED.

 

The stated 681kg payload looks quite generous, but that figure is with no packs, no options, the 120 h.p. engine, and manual gearbox. Adding any of the packs and other options, plus possibly an awning, will begin whittling that payload away. So, if you haven't yet weighed the van in full touring trim, with driver and all passengers, pets, etc on board, it would be wise to do so, as it would be annoying to spend time and money on an upgrade that bears no fruit.

[fripp]

Brian Kirby - 2021-10-21 3:56 PM

So, if you haven't yet weighed the van in full touring trim, with driver and all passengers, pets, etc on board, it would be wise to do so, as it would be annoying to spend time and money on an upgrade that bears no fruit.

 

Your right it may not be worth it, but as the original question in my post I was just interested if anybody had found a simpler way to just get back to the original FIAT chassis weights with the DVLA not needing to pay for re-certification design weight certificates.

[simian]

Keithl - 2021-10-21 3:06 PM

 

simian - 2021-10-21 2:49 PM

...and brings with it a few other well known HGV restrictions.

Such as...

 

Reduced speed limits and access to centre villes in France, when the signage depicts 3.5t

sans Truck symbol. Road toll charges can find you in Class 3 instead of 2, although it is

possible to to shout your protestations at the booth to get it changed, being under 3.0m in

height is possibly equally important. Quite a few car parks have a 3.5t restriction. Even your

local MOT man might baulk when his ramp is rated at 3.5t max. I'm sure I can think of a few

more, all personally experienced.

Ah yes, Some (many) Breakdown Recovery Policies have a 3.5t threshold.

I'd include some Motorhome Insurance companies with that restriction too.

 

My own MOT station mechanic tests my 6.6t GVW van on a 5.6t 4 poster ramp! I assure him

that it actually weighs in as presented at 4.3t the spare 2.2t is merely temporarily unused payload.

I stand under the van to doubly reassure him !

[Keithl]

simian - 2021-10-21 8:09 PM

 

Reduced speed limits and access to centre villes in France, when the signage depicts 3.5t

sans Truck symbol.

We don't travel in France so no problem to us.

Road toll charges can find you in Class 3 instead of 2

We don't use European toll roads so no problem to us.

Quite a few car parks have a 3.5t restriction.

We have only ever experienced one UK car park with a weight restriction, the biggest problem is height restrictions.

Even your local MOT man might baulk when his ramp is rated at 3.5t max.

My local MOT station also tests Class 7 and has ramps to 4.0 Tonnes so not an issue here.

 

The biggest issue here in the UK is one you have not mentioned but whilst not exactly related to GVW but more Unladen weight, is the issue of restricted speed limits for vans with an Unladen weight over 3,050 kg (originally 3 Imperial Tons).

 

Keith.

 

PS And apologies to Fripp for the off topic!

[simian]

Certainly weight upgrading of a motorhome into a differing category will affect the owner

to varying degrees.

I use my van more than 90% of usage time and mileage in Euroland, Morocco, and occasionally

east Europe, yet even with the disadvantages that being over 3.5t imposes I consider them

to be outweighed by the advantages that a large payload gives me, It's all down to personal

judgement.

Having said that I think I would go for a 150kg payload increase in a van, if it spared my illegal

status as being 'overloaded'. And naturally taking account of max. axle limits. But it wouldn't

cause me to lose any sleep if I didn't upgrade, and I'd only do it if it was little more than a paper

exercise.

'

Another one, Grandpop C1 medicals for the 70's and over.

[Derek Uzzell]

This 2015 forum thread mentioned DIY-uprating a motorhome from 3500kg to 4250kg (apparently just sending the vehicle’s V5C to the DVLA with covering documentation was sufficient).

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Uprating-vehicle-weight-yourself/38746/

 

This 2018 forum thread discussed the Fiat Ducato 3650kg VIN plate and ‘uprating’ (for free) to that weight from the motorhome converter’s 3500kg maximum.

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Weight-upgrade/50266/

 

(However, the person who originally asked the question eventually chose to uprate from 3500kg to 3850kg using a professional middle-man and at a cost of £180.)

 

Changing V5C details is covered here

 

https://www.gov.uk/change-vehicle-details-registration-certificate/what-evidence-to-give

 

When 'weight uprating' has been carried out professionally, a visual indicator (eg. a sticker’) showing the revised weight(s) will normally have been provided as part of the exercise, ensuring that there is no conflict between the V5C and the motorhome’s VIN plates. I vaguely recall a forum member who had DIYed a weight change saying that he had subsequently obtained online a revised VIN plate showing the new weight data and fixed this to his motorhome. Even if the DVLA authorises fripp’s weight-change application they won’t provide a VIN plate, so this is something to bear in mind.

[Brian Kirby]

fripp - 2021-10-21 7:51 PM

Brian Kirby - 2021-10-21 3:56 PM

So, if you haven't yet weighed the van in full touring trim, with driver and all passengers, pets, etc on board, it would be wise to do so, as it would be annoying to spend time and money on an upgrade that bears no fruit.

Your right it may not be worth it, but as the original question in my post I was just interested if anybody had found a simpler way to just get back to the original FIAT chassis weights with the DVLA not needing to pay for re-certification design weight certificates.

There have been many posts over the years on re-plating vans to achieve a higher usable payload, and I have not seen any that suggest it is possible to achieve this by providing DVLA with pictures of two VIN plates, each bearing a different permissible MAM, and having the higher of the two authorised as the permissible legal weight.

DVLA have to be convinced that the vehicle would be safe if operated at the higher weight, for which they will need certification from a competent source - either an authorised automotive engineer, or the final stage manufacturer of the van (Carado). Fiat cannot do this, as the vehicle left their factory incomplete. Only the company which converted the Fiat chassis into a motorhome (Carado), or an independent engineer, can provide the necessary certification. So, in simple terms, I think the answer to your question is no, you'll have to pay for the pleasure - which is why I suggested that you first check the laden weights of the van to be sure that the gain would be worth the time and expense.

 

I would also suggest a second weighbridge visit, to get a weighbridge ticket showing the weight of the van (including axles) in as near to the legal "Unladen" state as possible, so that you have an accurate baseline for calculating your payload - but more importantly as proof that its unladen weight is below 3,050kg - in case you are stopped by the police for speeding (it is a largish van, and the main road speed limit is 50 MPH for vehicles over 3,050kg unladen).

[fripp]

To try, maybe in vein, to bring this back to my what I thought was a short and to the point question.

 

There have been many posts over the years on re-plating vans to achieve a higher usable payload, and I have not seen any that suggest it is possible to achieve this by providing DVLA with pictures of two VIN plates, each bearing a different permissible MAM, and having the higher of the two authorised as the permissible legal weight.

 

I am not suggesting sending the DVLA two sets of information and asking them to decide. My thought was to send them the FIAT COC and potentially a picture of the existing FIAT weight plate. No changes have been made to the weight carrying components of the vehicle since it left their factory. This is all rated to 3650kg.

 

When 'weight uprating' has been carried out professionally, a visual indicator (eg. a sticker’) showing the revised weight(s) will normally have been provided as part of the exercise, ensuring that there is no conflict between the V5C and the motorhome’s VIN plates. I vaguely recall a forum member who had DIYed a weight change saying that he had subsequently obtained online a revised VIN plate showing the new weight data and fixed this to his motorhome. Even if the DVLA authorises fripp’s weight-change application they won’t provide a VIN plate, so this is something to bear in mind.

 

I do not need a new weight plate as the original FIAT weight plate is attached the vehicle now at the weight I am looking to change the V5 to.

 

It seems some people have managed to achieve an up rating through the DVLA via a DIY process. But I can't find anyone who has done this who can tell me what the DIY process was they used. All I was asking was to 'reach out' to them to ask them to clarify. If none are listening then fine let this thread wither.

[Robinhood]

fripp - 2021-10-22 10:15 AM

 

I do not need a new weight plate as the original FIAT weight plate is attached the vehicle now at the weight I am looking to change the V5 to.

 

 

...my suspicion is that you will.

 

As alluded to above, the "last stage" VIN/weight plate attached to the vehicle is the one that provides the legal information.

 

The FIAT plate will be the "stage 1" plate and the Carado (Capron?) plate will be marked as "Stufe 2" (Stage 2). This is also recorded on the final stage 2 CoC provided by Carado.

 

It should not be possible simply to revert to the Stage 1 (Fiat) plate and figures - a separate "Stage 3" plate and documentation should be supplied to ensure the change is logical and legal.

 

Consider, for example, the situation where a converter has provided a plate with a different GTW to that quoted on the Fiat plate (a not uncommon occurrence due to chassis modifications or extensions). Reversion to the Fiat plated figures would be a no-no.

 

FWIW, my 'van has a stage 1 Fiat plate showing a MAM of 3650, GTW of 6150, a stage 2 Al-Ko plate with a MAM of 3850, GTW 5500, and a stage 3 Hymer plate with a MAM of 3500 and GTW of 5500. Whilst I'm fairly confident that I could replate the vehicle at the 3650 value shown on the stage 1 plate (or even, indeed the 3850 shown on the stage 2 plate) I doubt anyone would countenance the restoration of the 6150 GTW shown on the Fiat plate.

 

[fripp]

A very valid point, I was not aware of the stage identification, thanks for that.

 

To add to this been googling around and it seems some weight plates don't have any stage identification on them, including the up rated plates?

[Keithl]

Fripp,

 

Have you tried contacting either Carado directly or any UK dealer to ask if you can be issued with a 'new' Carado 2nd stage VIN plate at 3,650 kg? If not then this would be my first suggested route.

 

Keith.

[Batding]

I have a Carado T339 plated 3.5 but have now upgraded it to 4.1. It was a paper exercise but Swansea required the vehicle to be fitted with RFS... road friendly suspension so I fitted semi air to the rear which was easier enough to do myself. The paperwork can be obtained on line ad can take a while to get it sorted from Swansea. You may have to get someone to sign off on the suspension just to say it's been fitted. I don't think they will accept just the picture as you described.

[Brian Kirby]

fripp - 2021-10-22 10:15 AM

 

To try, maybe in vein, to bring this back to my what I thought was a short and to the point question.

 

There have been many posts over the years on re-plating vans to achieve a higher usable payload, and I have not seen any that suggest it is possible to achieve this by providing DVLA with pictures of two VIN plates, each bearing a different permissible MAM, and having the higher of the two authorised as the permissible legal weight.

 

I am not suggesting sending the DVLA two sets of information and asking them to decide. My thought was to send them the FIAT COC and potentially a picture of the existing FIAT weight plate. No changes have been made to the weight carrying components of the vehicle since it left their factory. This is all rated to 3650kg..................................

Well, I didn't go quite so far as to suggest that DVLA would decide which plate to accept. Even I ain't that daft. :-D

 

As robinhood has explained, Type Approval requires the various manufacturers (three in his case) who contribute to the finished vehicle, to issue Certificates of Conformity and VIN plates for their contribution. As each adds his plate the preceding plates are superseded until the final stage plate is attached. That plate then governs the weight at which the vehicle will be registered.

 

DVLA have no choice in this, because they cannot possibly know whether, or what, modifications (for example to brakes, suspension, weight distribution, etc) may have been made to the vehicle as it progresses from stage to stage to justify the changes. What they need is evidence that the vehicle will be safe to operate on public roads at that weight. When a vehicle is to be up-plated from the weight at which it was first sold as a complete vehicle they must have a statement from a competent person (either the manufacturer who issued the final plate, or an authorised independent engineer) that the vehicle will be safe to operate at the new weight, even if that results, as in my case, in a lower MAM, but especially if the weight is to be increased.

 

In effect, the other plates becomes irrelevant, but are retained as they give an audit trail of the stages the vehicle has passed through. So, someone (final manufacturer or independent engineer) has to check the vehicle records before providing certification authorising the revised weight. That takes some time and they expect to be reimbursed for their work, hence the charges. I think those claiming DIY up-plating that has that been completed without recourse to professional assistance are just over-simplifying what was actually done.

 

If it were that simple I'm sure, given the number of people have found their vans short of payload over the years, that it would have been discussed on here in some detail. The fact that you have been unable to find details of how this was achieved, and nor have any of the 272 people who have read your string to date, tends to support this. I think that if you de decide to up-plate you'll have to accept that it will cost you to do so, however much we might all hope it would be otherwise. :-)

[Derek Uzzell]

Fripp’s imported the Carado motorhome to the UK and (presumably being in LHD format) it will have gone through the usual procedure relating to LHD motorhomes when it was UK-registered. Consequently, the DVLA should have seen the motorhome’s Fiat and Carado Certificates of Conformity and may well have retained copies of those CoCs.

 

My LHD Rapido motorhome had a '2-stage’ build and photos of its under-bonnet VIN plates are attached below. The Rapido plate indicates that it relates to the 2nd (final) build stage (ETAPE 2), while the Fiat plate does not have nor need a ‘stage indicator’ as it relates to the initial chassis-only build stage. All motorhomes that have ECWVTA (European Community Whole Vehicle Type Approval) and a multi-stage build should carry a VIN plate for each additional build stage, with the ‘stage number’ in the language of the country in which the stage was carried out.

 

As mentioned above by Robinhood, my motorhome’s Fiat plate also shows a GVW (Gross Vehicle Weight) of 3650kg and a GTW (Gross Train Weight) of 6150kg, with the Rapido plate showing a GVW of 3500kg and a GTW of 5500kg. The Rapido GVW and GTW weights apply to the completed motorhome, while the Fiat GVW and GTW values are ‘provisional’ as the Ducato camping-car chassis-cab unit sold to Rapido for conversion cannot be driven on the road before conversion has taken place. So attempting to use the Fiat VIN plate as a argument for allowing a simple weight GVW upgrade from 3500kg to 3650kg is a very questionable ploy.

 

I’m reminded of fripp’s recent forum enquiry about fitting LED bulbs in his Ducato X290 motorhome’s DRLs. Nobody seems to have done this and the only way to find out if this would present problems would be for fripp to fit LED bulbs and see what happens.

 

Fripp has said “My thought was to send them the FIAT COC and potentially a picture of the existing FIAT weight plate.” The DVLA might agree a 3500kg to 3650kg GVW upgrade as a result or they might not – but the only way to find out is to try it. My own feeling (particularly as a change of VED is also involved) is that the DVLA will need a bit more convincing than that, but one never knows...

[colin]

I would note that Carado offer this on the configurator.

 

Weight increase to 3,65 t (no chassis modification)

I'd guess from that, there are no technical reasons that it can't be done, but they do charge £220 which seems a lot of money for attaching a different plate on assembly.

[fripp]

Keithl - 2021-10-22 1:01 PM

 

Fripp,

 

Have you tried contacting either Carado directly or any UK dealer to ask if you can be issued with a 'new' Carado 2nd stage VIN plate at 3,650 kg? If not then this would be my first suggested route.

 

Keith.

Well yes I could, but I was just after other peoples DIY experience.