LPG

[richardw]

Can anyone give us information about the amount of LPG left in the external tank of our motorhome when all four lights have gone off on the dashboard please?

We visit islands where we are unable to buy LPG and would hate to run out as this is all we have for running the fridge and cooker.

It has never cost more than £10 to fill up when we are able to buy it again, which suggests there is still plenty left, but perhaps someone in the forum has more information. Many thanks.

[Wooie]

Hi there,

 

i think you need to say what system you actually have.

 

Make, model, tank capacity etc. and any info you have

and i`m sure someone on here will recognise it and

be able to help

 

Regards.

[richardw]

Many thanks.

 

I hope the following information is of use...

 

STAKO 20 litre capacity

 

Max. filling level 80%

[Guest Tracker]

Perhaps I am missing something here but why not just go and top it up and then you will know exactly how much gas you have?

[bobalobs]

This sounds like the system we have in our Murvi. I have yet to work out if the 20 litres is the amount of gas when full or the total capacity of the tank and you can only fill 80% of that with gas. With two green blobs showing out of four the tank only takes about 8 litres . So our current thought is that when it shows red there is about 4 litres to go but we may be wrong!! Someone has to be brave enough to run the tank till empty and then report back.!!

[Derek Uzzell]

I'd expect the quoted capacity of an LPG tank to represent the tank's total capacity rather than its capacity at 80% full. So a 20 litres STAKO container would hold 16 litres of LPG at 80% full.

 

My uderstanding is that the remote LED contents-indicator 'piggy-backs' on the tank's normal float-type contents-gauge mechanism. Consequently, for a vertical LPG bottle the remote indicator won't be that accurate as the float mechanism won't cover a true full-to-empty range. For a horizontal LPG tank, I'd anticipate a much greater (potential) level of accuracy, as a float mechanism has more scope for movement within the tank. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that the number of indicator-lights that are lit at any one time will necessarily provide an accurate read-out.

 

Regarding emptiness, let's assume that a tank hold 16 litres of LPG at 80% full and it costs £10 to top up when all the indicator-lights have extenguished. If we assume, say, £0.65 per litre, £10 would buy 15.38 litres pf LPG. This suggests that, when all the indicator-lights go out, there ain't much LPG left.

[bobalobs]

Hi Richard.

Since my last posting I have investigated further. Our Stako tank has a nominal 25 litre capacity and so on a theoretical maximum 80% fill it should take 20 litres of gas. Murvi believe that the tank suppliers take a conservative approach when setting the " cut out valve level" aswhen filling the tank from new it indicates full at just over 18 litres. it is possible that this might increase a bit as the system beds in . They do say that customers have commented that there seems to be quite a lot of gas between the red light first showing and running out. Maybe the gauge is also conservative in its reading. Hope this is of help. My investigations have clarified certain aspects in my mind.

[richardw]

Thank-you everyone for all the advice.

We have assumed that a 20 litre tank would just hold 16 litres of LPG.

When we are on the mainland, it isn't a problem, but, when you have no access to LPG and are away for 3-4 weeks, it does somewhat play on the mind!!

[bobalobs]

Richard

Are you sure that your Stako tank is only 20 litres nominal capacity rather than a 25 litre tank that has a maximum capacity for gas at 20 litres with the 80% of capacity rule. I was confused by this until I found the paperwork and checked with Murvi. Also Stako tanks are supplied by Autogas 2000 and on their website the smallest tank is 25litres.

[Derek Uzzell]

Stako manufactures a wide range of LPG tanks, with cylindrical containers ranging in capacity from 10 litres to over 200 litres. The specification of all such tanks includes two capacity figures - one for total capacity and a second for 'usable' (ie 80% full) capacity.

 

Might help to know what motorhome Richard owns.

 

 

[richardw]

It's a Timberland Endeavour on a LWB Renault.

[Guest machra]

Richard. I have been looking at this as we were in France last week and ran onto the last green light on the gauge with no LPG stations anywhere near. I have a Timberland Destiny. Timberland quote 30 litres for this tank, which at 80% fill gives 26 litres usable space. However I only got 12 litres in it when I managed to fill it up (still on the last green light). The gauge has 6 lights, 1x red, 4x green and one at the top that has never lit up (even when full so possibly a too full one!!!). Therefore I discount the top one and say there are 5 lights which estimates that there is about 5 litres usable LPG to each of the lights. However we have never run out so cant test the theory of this. I do know that if these figures are correct then we are using a heck of a lot of gas compared to my gaslow system in my old van. That one, a 15kg bottle, I could fill up and it lasted nearly a season camping. I think as a rough guess 15kg is a little over 30 litres. I seem to be always filling the fixed tank on the Timberland.

[Derek Uzzell]

machra

 

My understanding was that Gaslow refillable bottles have only ever been marketed in two sizes - a '6kg' canister holding approximately 11.5 litres of LPG at 80% fill, or an '11kg' canister holding around 21 litres of LPG at 80% fill, so I'm a mite wary of your 15kg/30 litres Gaslow container.

 

If you are refilling your Timberland's tank regularly and putting a significant quantity of LPG into it each time, then (logically) you have either used the quantity of LPG that you have put in for 'domestic' purposes (heating, cooking, etc.) or you've got a gas leak somewhere in the system.

[keninpalamos]

Some years ago I read an article on refilable bottles by Mel Eastburn in MMM. It involved the kevlar light weight bottles sold by MTH Gas which I have used for many years. Anyway here is my reply to that article which I might add was not published.

I’m writing in response to an article published by your good self’s in the MMM mag. in the 2008 June edition on page187 under the title of “Guzzling Gas” by Mel Eastburn.

I read Mel’s article with great interest as I had found a solution for my gas supply some years ago and have been happy with the system I set up. It consists of one Spanish Repsol bottle that is the exchange type, which is very reasonably priced in Spain and can also be exchanged in Portugal or refilled in several places along the Algarve. Also some countries in Africa will refill a Repsol bottle for you at a gas depot under the name of Africa Gas. Mind you some of these places will fill a bucket for you if the price is right! For all other countries I take two 20-litre “barge poll” refillable see-through bottles as Mel calls them supplied I might add by MTH Autogas. A company Mel described as “experienced” and I would agree with him on that point. If you compare the BP lightweight 10KG patio gas bottle (what is “patio” gas) with the MTH 20-litre bottle they are very similar. Both made of GRP with a three part welded plastic casing and handle system. In fact if you look a little closer the handle design is almost the same. The difference is, one is green in colour and the other one isn’t and one is refillable the other isn’t. When I say one is not refillable I mean it is not refillable by you, the general public but is refillable by a BP agent. Many agents refill in the same manner as you would at the LPG pump. Their LPG pumps being at the depot like the Calor gas one in Didcot Oxfordshire. The BP bottles don’t have a different refill system than the MTH or similar bottles. To put it in simple terms the bottles hold 20 litres, when full. When empty there is no gas in the bottle. This you can check by looking at the bottle to see if there is any gas in the bottle. If you can’t see any gas and the bottle feels light when you pick it up and when you open the valve on the top and no gas comes out this means the bottle is empty. You can now fill your bottle with 20 litres of gas. This you can check on the pump just as you do with petrol or diesel, plus as Mel rightly points out you can see the level of the liquid gas in the bottle and MTH has thoughtfully put a “FULL” marker on the bottle which in fact is marked at 80% full to allow for expansion due to temperature fluctuation, air pressure etc. If you don’t think you are capable of reading the output on the pump or you can’t see the level of the gas in the MTH bottle then stick to being ripped off with the exchange bottle system in this country and can I suggest you hand in your driving licence as soon as possible. If you do over fill your bottle you are in fact a Numpty and should not be allowed out on your own. but it’s not the end of the world, you can vent excess gas out in a safe and suitable place but you should still hand in your driving licence. All MTH bottles come with three adaptors for different countries. If you get refused a refill of your bottle don’t feel downhearted go to the next garage. It’s not a refusal on safety grounds, more on financial grounds as the garage would sooner sell you one of their bottles at an inflated price. Just check to see if they sell bottled gas on the forecourt if they do then they won’t let you fill your bottle in which case you could ask them if they sell barge poles. When BP introduced their patio bargepole bottles they used many established outlets that were being used by Calor who on discovering this fact through all their toys out of the pram, cancelled the dealer contract immediately and would not except returned empty Calor bottles from these dealers. If you have had a monopoly in the gas bottle refill market since time began I suppose that’s not surprising. Safety is paramount when it comes to gas! But a fare view runs a close second. I rest my bargepole or gas bottle. Biffo Johnson, .

 

 

[Guest machra]

Yep Derek sorry you are right. Dug out the old receipt and the Gaslow was the 11kg bottle. I know we havent a leak as Timberland have tested it and as you say logically I must be using it.

[Derek Uzzell]

keninpalamos

 

The translucent LPG bottles marketed by MTH Autogas Supplies are not made of kevlar. They use a composite 'plastic' construction and were manfactured by Kompozit-Praha. They were (and are) available in various capacities and examples (in various colours) are shown on this website

 

http://kompozitpraha.com/products.htm

 

It needs saying that these LPG containers were never intended for 'user refilling'. They just offer a lightweight alternative to a metal canister in the same way that BP's "Gas Light" bottles do. In France they are used by Antargaz as a domestic (butane) bottle branded "Calypso".

 

http://www.antargaz.fr/-2-4-5-6-26-26-_Accueil_Particuliers_Nos_produits_Les_bouteilles_de_gaz_Gamme_butane_Calypso

 

Because the bottle is not intended for user-refilling, its design lacks safety features such as an 80% cut-off valve or a non-return valve at the filler inlet. These limitations are mentioned on the following webpage

 

http://www.a-tconsulting.co.uk/caravan_tech/gas_matters.html

 

There is, nowadays, another translucent composite container (the "Safefill" bottle - also shown on that webpage). This IS intended for user-refilling, but - because of it's filler-inlet design - there are still safety considerations that don't apply to metal user-refillable bottles.

 

The simple fact is that the MTHA Komposit-Praha bottle is a dangerous container when employed for user-refilling and, even if the user makes every effort to minimise risk, because of the lack of safety features things can easily go badly wrong at the refilling stage. MTHA stopped marketing them when it became evident that adding an 80% cut-off valve was a financial non-starter, and it was probably a blessing that they did.

 

(Incidentally, I'm not writing above theoretically as I have an MTHA 5kg translucent bottle that I've been refilling for more than 10 years. But I'm not blind to the risks inherent with this LPG bottle and I would not recommend its use to another person. Nor, were it being marketed in the UK today, would I buy one.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[keninpalamos]

Thanks for the information, did I put kevlar? serves me right. Should have read it first. that was 2008. I'm intrested in one or two points that have been made. Why did MTH market the bottles as user refillable in their orginal form and then not recall all sales knowing they had made a mistake or did I miss the recall. My second question is, in what way was the filler inlet design not suitable? do you mean there was no one way valve in the unit or something else or both? and lastly what are the safety concerns with these and other composite unites that don't apply to metal user refillable bottles. I have to say when filling my bottles I do have to consentrate, keeping an eye on how many litres and the level in the bottle, when to close the valve on the bottle and when to release the trigger on the pump but then so do the employees of the companies such as calor and BP etc. don't they? Again many thanks for your replies.

[Derek Uzzell]

The gas-bottles made by Komposit-Praha (K-P), and once marketed in the UK by MTH Autogas, are designed, tested and certified to hold LPG safely and (obviously) are capable of being refilled.

 

When a K-P bottle is used as an exchange-only container provided by a gas-supply company under a hire agreement (eg. as Antargaz in France provides K-P-made "Calypso" bottles) refilling is not carried by the bottle's end-user but professionally by employees of the gas-supply company. (In fact, end-users are invariably prohibited by the terms of the hire agreement from refilling exchange-only gas-bottle themselves.) Gas-bottles intended for the 'hire' market do not need (or have) the types of safety feature that one might expect with a container specifically designed for refilling by the end-user. Consequently, K-P bottles have no automatic over-fill prevention device (80% cut-off valve), nor any means of stopping gas emerging from the bottle should the end-user forget to close the bottle's outlet-valve after refilling.

 

However, MTHA sold K-P bottles direct to end-users not via a hire agreement and, as those end-users now ‘owned’ the K-P bottles, there was nothing preventing them from refilling the bottles themselves. As you’ve highlighted, you need to keep your wits about you when refilling a K-P bottle and, on this 2008 forum thread

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=14097&posts=26

 

I suggested that “accident-prone people should steer well clear of these containers”.

 

MTHA used to provide instructions on how the K-P bottles should be refilled, and - because the end-user owned the bottle and would be carrying out the refilling - it was always the end-user’s responsibility to follow those instructions carefully when refilling was carried out.

 

A K-P bottle can accurately be called a “user-refillable bottle” because it can be refilled by the user, but it was never designed to be. It is certainly not as risk-free as bottles with safety features like an 80% cut-off valve, but that design limitation should have been apparent to purchasers of K-P bottles from MTHA.

 

A K-P bottle is what it is and there’s no question of MTHA making some sort of ‘mistake’ in marketing it, nor any question of a subsequent recall being required. If someone looking for a user-refillable bottle had been concerned by the idea of using a K-P container for that purpose, MTHA also offered (and would install) a range of more expensive STAKO-made metal canisters that were specifically designed for user-refilling.

 

Various designs of outlet valves can be fitted to a K-P bottle according to where it is intended that the bottle will be marketed, and I think the valve used on the MTHA-sold bottle is a Germany-standard one. It’s just an ordinary screw-down valve of the type fitted to many gas-bottles to shut off the bottle’s gas-supply. ‘Suitability’ is not really a factor, but it’s plain that a filler that does not incorporate features that would facilitate bottle-refilling and/or protect the safety of the person doing the refilling can hardly be considered state of the art.

 

A “Safefill” composite bottle’s filler/outlet incorporates an 80% cut-off valve and a one-way valve to prevent gas coming out of the bottle should the person refilling the bottle forget to close the container’s screw-down valve before disconnecting the bottle from the LPG pump. A Safefill representative told me that obtaining official certification for their bottle’s filler/outlet design during the bottle’s development phase had been time-consuming and expensive. For commercial reasons (basically cost) MTHA chose not to pursue development of similar features for the K-P composite gas-bottle.

 

The (potential) advantages of a composite gas-bottle are explained on the K-P website. However, where user-refilling is involved, the only obvious technical benefit it has over a metal canister is that it’s possible to visually check the level of gas inside the bottle.

 

Metal gas-bottles can be made from lightweight steel (eg. the “Calor Lite” bottle) or aluminium (eg. the “Alugas” range of canisters) and the resultant containers are little or no heavier than equivalent-capacity composite gas-bottles.

 

The major technical disadvantage of a composite-construction gas-bottle that’s to be employed for user-refilling is that (to the best of my knowledge) it’s impracticable/impossible to manufacture a composite gas-bottle with more than a single ‘valve hole’. This limitation does not apply to metal user-refillable gas-bottles that can have several ‘holes’ in their upper surface, with each ‘hole’ dedicated to a particular purpose.

 

With a ‘2-hole’ metal bottle, one hole will carry a standard screw-down outlet valve and the other will carry a filling-point incorporating an 80% cut-off valve and a one-way shut-off valve. Additional ‘holes’ can be used to hold a contents-gauge and/or an additional safety-valve.

 

Having a filling-point separate from the outlet valve means that metal bottles designed for user-refilling can be installed in a leisure-vehicle in a semi-permanent manner (eg. as Galslow normally recommends) as there is no requirement to disconnect/reconnect the gas-bottle from the leisure-vehicle’s gas system as part of the refilling procedure. A ‘fixed’ system is not practicable with composite gas-bottles.

 

I don’t know what methodology is employed when exchange-only gas-bottles (BP, Calor, etc.) are refilled professionally by the gas suppliers who ‘own’ the bottles. But, as exchange-only bottles are marketed by weight of gas, not volume, I assume some sort of weighing technique is involved.

 

When (say) a metal Calor bottle is to be refilled at a Calor refilling centre, the amount of gas inside cannot be established visually either before or after refilling. So I’d guess the bottle to be refilled is weighed, its empty weight (as shown on the bottle’s outlet-valve ‘collar’) is entered into the refilling equipment, empty-weight is subtracted from current bottle-weight, the result is subtracted from the weight of gas the bottle is to contain when full, and the figure produced by the subtraction is the weight of gas that’s pumped into the bottle.

 

As large quantities of exchange-only bottles regularly need to be refilled, it would be logical to expect the refilling process to be as automated as practicable, for health and safety as well as marketing reasons.

 

I would not envisage BP employees refilling hundreds of BP “Gas Light” bottles manually in the way you refill your pair of MTHA bottles”: your procedure is OK for an individual to follow, but just too fiddly for a commercial organization.

 

[keninpalamos]

Thanks for the detailed and may I say diplomatically written information Derek, wise words. So bassically these bottles are not designed for end user, ie, person that bought the bottle to refill it but were sold as such with instructions etc by MTH. The design limitaions should have been apparent to MTH as well which it most certainly was I suspect and they, as a professional body therefor were supplying goods not (I won't use the word " fit") designed for purpose. IE A unit was being sold to the public to do something it was not designed to do. I thought that was breaking the consumer laws of this country. Having said that I still stand by my original statment that the K-P 20 litre units were a good investment at the time. The 10 litre units had trouble with the red casing if I remember correctly. Basically they used to crack or split and fall apart. Not a danger in it's self but a bit inconvienient as you might imagine. MTH would take them back and exchange them or give you a re fund. As Derek said "accident prone people" I used the word Numpty back in 2008. Not very PC I know but it comes down to the same thing, should go for the bottles with all the built in safety devices incorporating separate filling connection with a none return valve and a 80% cut off valve and why not? It's what you are confortable with. So if you under stand these K-P bottles and how to fill them which I thought I had described back in 2008 in detail, they can be touched with a barge poll and to make a general sweeping statement in the press as Mel Eastburn did at the time was over the top and wrong. A more balanced veiw might have been in order giving the good and bad sides and details of all units of the time. If there are concerns say what they are in detail as Derek has done in his last piece and not "these bottle should not be used because they are dangerous with out explaining your statement and not leaveing people thinking by eck Iv'e missed something here, these are designed to blow my head off. For goodness sake we are not all dim wits! so do not preach to us as such. I rest my case......or bottle.

[Derek Uzzell]

The late Mel Eastburn tended to be didactic, but, despite his criticisms of the K-P bottle marketed by MTHA, Mel still chose to purchase a metal user-refillable canister from that company. See this 2007 thread

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=7046&posts=22

 

The K-P bottle is not designed for user-refilling, has none of the safety features found on gas containers designed for user-refilling and, consequently, compels the user to take special care during the refilling process. That counts as "potentially dangerous" in my book. I don't recall Mel's article, but if he said "these bottle should not be used because they are dangerous" I wouldn't quibble too much over that advice. As I said earlier in this thread "I would not recommend its use to another person. Nor, were it being marketed in the UK today, would I buy one". That seems little different to Mel's warning.

 

I note (with some amusement) your description of MTHA as a "professional body". I don't know what contact you had with the company but, when I first met the proprietor, Richard Cecil, in (I think) 2000, he was working out of a grimy Santa's Grotto shed attached to the side of a building on a Forest of Dean small industrial estate. Richard made disorganisation an art form and, although things improved when his Eastern-European colleague Marika got involved, I would never use the word "professional" to describe the company.