Latest Fiat Ducato (X290) – Standard specification??

[Derek Uzzell]

In the final posting of the following recent Hints & Tips thread

 

https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Hints-and-Tips/Daytime-Running-Lights/35707/31/#M433032

 

I said

 

“I’m beginning to wonder quite how ‘standard’ Electronic Stability Control (ESC) is with the X290 and (perhaps more to the point) how a motorhome buyer easily identifies that his/her X290 actually has it....”

 

The Fiat Ducato’s ESC system improves the directional control and stability of the vehicle in various driving conditions, correcting the vehicle’s understeer and oversteer by distributing the brake force to the appropriate wheels. The torque supplied by the engine can also be reduced in order to maintain control of the vehicle. ESC uses sensors in the vehicle to determine the trajectory required by the driver through steering and compares it with the real trajectory of the vehicle. When the real trajectory deviates from the desired trajectory, the system intervenes to counter the vehicle’s understeer or oversteer. (Oversteer occurs when the vehicle is turning more than it should according to the angle of the steering wheel. Understeer occurs when the vehicle is turning less than it should according to the angle of the steering wheel.)

 

The ESC system also includes the following subsystems:

 

ARS (AntiSlip Regulation – a basic ‘traction-assist’ system)

Hill Holder (helps the driver with hill-starts)

HBA (Hydraulic Brake Assist – maximises emergency braking performance)

 

An ESC system was an option for the now-superseded Ducato X250 range, but ESC is claimed to be part of the standard specification for the latest X290 version.

 

Two questions then:

 

1: Is ESC part of an X290’s standard specification? The answer is YES.

 

2: Can it therefore be assumed that all Ducato X290-based motorhomes will have ESC? The answer is NO.

 

This apparent contradiction is explained by Fiat treating the X290’s ESC system as (in American automobile parlance) a ‘delete option’, allowing motorhome manufacturers to ‘deselect’ ESC from a Ducato’s standard specification when X290 chassis are ordered from Fiat.

 

As the ESC system is part of an X290’s standard specification, if a motorhome manufacturer does not deselect it, an X290 chassis will automatically be supplied with ESC. However, if a motorhome manufacturer does deselect ESC when an X290 chassis is ordered, that chassis will not have ESC and the system cannot be retro-fitted.

 

Deselecting ESC reduces the cost of an X290 chassis, permitting a motorhome manufacturer to market the completed vehicle at a more attractive asking-price. Being cynical, deselecting ESC also gives a motorhome manufacturer the opportunity to offer buyers the ESC system as an option at a price that will almost certainly be more than the cost-difference between a non-ESC-equipped X290 and an ESC-equipped equivalent.

 

It has become very plain from my discussions with motorhome salesmen (UK and French) and from reading comments in motorhome magazines (UK and French) that there is confusion over whether or not ESC is ‘standard’ on X290 Ducato motorhomes.

 

Last Sunday I visited an exhibition at St. Brieuc in Brittany where hundreds of motorhomes were on display, many of them 2015 X290-based models, and it seems to be relatively straightforward to identify whether or not an X290 motorhome has ESC.

 

Beneath the heating/ventilation controls in the centre of the dashboard is a red hazard-warning-lights push-button switch that has three potential ‘switch positions’ to its left and another three potential ‘switch positions’ to its right. (See attached photo of 2015 Peugeot Boxer dashboard as an example.)

 

It’s what is in the switch positions to the right of the hazard-warning-lights switch that matters when it comes to identifying the presence (or not) of ESC.

 

Let’s refer to the three on-the-right switch positions as SP1, SP2 and SP3, with SP1 being nearest to the hazard-warning-lights switch, then SP2, then SP3 on the far right.

 

If SP3 contains a push-button switch marked “ASR-OFF” (with an LED tell-tale light), the motorhome DOES have ESC.

 

If SP1, SP2 and SP3 are all ‘blank’ (ie. they just have pieces of black plastic in them), the motorhome DOES NOT have ESC.

 

I looked at quite a few X290-based motorhomes at the St. Brieuc exhibition and many of them did not have ESC. I do not recall seeing any coachbuilt model with an ASR-OFF button in SP3, though some panel-van conversions had this.

 

What seemed to be the norm for the coachbuilt motorhomes on display was to have either no ESC or, instead, to be fitted with Fiat’s TRACTION PLUS system (that includes ESC). When TRACTION PLUS is fitted, the ASR-OFF button in SP3 is replaced by a button marked “T”. When motorhomes had a “T” button in SP3, there always seemed to be a ‘Hill Descent Control (HDC)’ button in SP2. Occasionally, there was also a ‘Driving Advisor (lane crossing warning)’ button in SP1.

 

If there’s a moral to this, it’s that a potential buyer of an X290-based motorhome would be very unwise to assume that the vehicle will have ESC as standard.

 

Buyers may also need to be wary of what they are told by well-meaning salesmen when it comes to ESC on the X290 Ducato. For instance, I was assured by one Rapido salesman that all 2015 Rapido models had ESC, while another (correctly) advised that certain Rapido models had the system as standard, but the majority did not. In the latter cases, ‘basic’ ESC was not available as an option, though the more expensive TRACTION PLUS system could be specified (€550) if a buyer wanted ESC.

[mikebeaches]

Thank you Derek - as usual - a very useful piece of technical information - in this case, concerning the new X290 cab. As we are possibly in the market for a new van, a most valuable insight.

 

Mike

[first5]

Does anyone know if the new Ducato is the same spec as the old Ducato in that it will require the timing belt changing after 5years?

[Robinhood]

...snipped from the X/290 Handbook

 

(So the answer is Yes!)

[Guest pelmetman]

Derek Uzzell - 2014-09-18 9:38 AM

 

In the final posting of the following recent Hints & Tips thread

 

https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Hints-and-Tips/Daytime-Running-Lights/35707/31/#M433032

 

I said

 

“I’m beginning to wonder quite how ‘standard’ Electronic Stability Control (ESC) is with the X290 and (perhaps more to the point) how a motorhome buyer easily identifies that his/her X290 actually has it....”

 

The Fiat Ducato’s ESC system improves the directional control and stability of the vehicle in various driving conditions, correcting the vehicle’s understeer and oversteer by distributing the brake force to the appropriate wheels. The torque supplied by the engine can also be reduced in order to maintain control of the vehicle. ESC uses sensors in the vehicle to determine the trajectory required by the driver through steering and compares it with the real trajectory of the vehicle. When the real trajectory deviates from the desired trajectory, the system intervenes to counter the vehicle’s understeer or oversteer. (Oversteer occurs when the vehicle is turning more than it should according to the angle of the steering wheel. Understeer occurs when the vehicle is turning less than it should according to the angle of the steering wheel.)

 

The ESC system also includes the following subsystems:

 

ARS (AntiSlip Regulation – a basic ‘traction-assist’ system)

Hill Holder (helps the driver with hill-starts)

HBA (Hydraulic Brake Assist – maximises emergency braking performance)

 

.

 

Speaking as a Luddite :D

 

I'm beginning to wonder if drivers need such technology to make them safe on the road 8-)...............

 

Should they be driving at all? :-S.................

 

Apparently we already need to drive around with our lights on............in daytime? *-).................

 

Apparently folk are that dumb that they're incapable of recognising when they need to turn their lights on.......... or.............even their wipers 8-)............

 

Now they're also incapable of clutch control and braking :-|.............

 

Progress eh? *-)

 

 

[Guest JudgeMental]

my 2013 X250 has ASR + the hill hold (as my 2011 Adria had, even though it was not supposed to) and the traction button?. (picture of wheel throwing up mud or snow) it certainly works well when reversing up a steep drive or slippery grass pitch, as have experimented with it on and off and the difference remarkable....it has a light and assumed it was for low speed maneuvering but I have no english instructions

 

If I was looking for a new van, I would would be negotiating a good price on a high spec outgoing X250. no interest in X290 until its euro 6 as I live in London.......

 

last switch on right from hazard:

[Guest pelmetman]

JudgeMental - 2014-09-24 10:33 PM

 

my 2013 X250 has ASR + the hill hold (as my 2011 Adria had, even though it was not supposed to) and the traction button?. (picture of wheel throwing up mud or snow) it certainly works well when reversing up a steep drive or slippery grass pitch....it has a light and assumed it was for low speed manoeuvring. Have no interest in 290 until its euro 6 as I live in London.......

 

However did vehicles get up hills backwards....... before they invented such clever gizmos? :D................

 

Progress eh? (lol)

 

 

[colin]

pelmetman - 2014-09-24 9:00 PM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2014-09-18 9:38 AM

 

In the final posting of the following recent Hints & Tips thread

 

https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Hints-and-Tips/Daytime-Running-Lights/35707/31/#M433032

 

I said

 

“I’m beginning to wonder quite how ‘standard’ Electronic Stability Control (ESC) is with the X290 and (perhaps more to the point) how a motorhome buyer easily identifies that his/her X290 actually has it....”

 

The Fiat Ducato’s ESC system improves the directional control and stability of the vehicle in various driving conditions, correcting the vehicle’s understeer and oversteer by distributing the brake force to the appropriate wheels. The torque supplied by the engine can also be reduced in order to maintain control of the vehicle. ESC uses sensors in the vehicle to determine the trajectory required by the driver through steering and compares it with the real trajectory of the vehicle. When the real trajectory deviates from the desired trajectory, the system intervenes to counter the vehicle’s understeer or oversteer. (Oversteer occurs when the vehicle is turning more than it should according to the angle of the steering wheel. Understeer occurs when the vehicle is turning less than it should according to the angle of the steering wheel.)

 

The ESC system also includes the following subsystems:

 

ARS (AntiSlip Regulation – a basic ‘traction-assist’ system)

Hill Holder (helps the driver with hill-starts)

HBA (Hydraulic Brake Assist – maximises emergency braking performance)

 

.

 

Speaking as a Luddite :D

 

I'm beginning to wonder if drivers need such technology to make them safe on the road 8-)...............

 

Should they be driving at all? :-S.................

 

Apparently we already need to drive around with our lights on............in daytime? *-).................

 

Apparently folk are that dumb that they're incapable of recognising when they need to turn their lights on.......... or.............even their wipers 8-)............

 

Now they're also incapable of clutch control and braking :-|.............

 

Progress eh? *-)

 

 

1990 number of deaths on the road 5217

2013 number of deaths on the road 1713

 

[Guest pelmetman]

colin - 2014-09-24 10:43 PM

 

 

1990 number of deaths on the road 5217

2013 number of deaths on the road 1713

 

The reduction is due to what?....................their wipers came on? :D...............or because we have more traffic jams ;-).............

 

I shouldn't worry though 8-).................As life is a numbers game ;-)...............5217 is just small change when compared to how we try to kill ourselves everyday :D..................

 

The five big preventable health killers - heart disease, stroke, cancer, lung and liver disease - account for more than 150,000 deaths a year among under-75s in England alone. The Department of Health estimates 30,000 of these are entirely avoidable.

 

 

[grahamw]

A very interesting thread as I currently have an X290 van awaiting conversion. I can easily see how ESC can be provided as standard on it without any concern in the same way that the bulkhead panel is standard but must be specified as a delete option if it is to become a PVC. Interestingly when the bulk head panel is deleted it still comes with a ladder rack type barrier behind the driver's seat to comply with legislation. This can then be removed once it becomes a "special purpose" vehicle.

 

The thought that occurs to me about CB motorhomes is that the reason for a delete option regarding ESC may well be that they will require a full and rigorous Type Approval of the whole vehicle once again and it may be difficult for some CB manufacturers to have the resources to prove that the vehicles ESC system still performs as intended with some body constructions. Fiat will have designed its ESC system with a range of body constructions in mind which may well not cater for all CB manufacturers interpretations. It would be simpler in such cases to use the delete option and avoid issues of the ESC system operating in an unpredictable manner. I assume that Fiat will have issued comprehensive guidelines to manufacturers regarding body design and its interaction with the ESC system.

[Derek Uzzell]

JudgeMental - 2014-09-24 10:33 PM

 

my 2013 X250 has ASR + the hill hold (as my 2011 Adria had, even though it was not supposed to) and the traction button?. (picture of wheel throwing up mud or snow) it certainly works well when reversing up a steep drive or slippery grass pitch, as have experimented with it on and off and the difference remarkable....it has a light and assumed it was for low speed maneuvering but I have no english instructions

 

If I was looking for a new van, I would would be negotiating a good price on a high spec outgoing X250. no interest in X290 until its euro 6 as I live in London.......

 

last switch on right from hazard:

 

An Electronic Stability Program (ESP) system was available on the now-superseded X250 Ducato, both in Euro 4 and Euro 5 formats. However, in neither case was it part of the standard specification.

 

ASR (AntiSlip Regulator) is an integral part of ESP, as is the Hill Holder feature. There is no indication in the handbooks for Euro 4 and Euro 5 X250s, or in the handbook for the latest X290, that it’s possible to have ASR or Hill Holder without the vehicle also having ESP. Consequently, if your Adria had ASR (evidenced by an ASR dashboard-button) it would also have had Hill Holder and ESP.

 

The dashboard-button arrangement for the X290 differs somewhat from that of the X250, with the door-locking-related button(s) being moved to the left of the hazard-warning-lights switch to make way for buttons required for X290 extra features (eg. HDC (Hill Descent Control)).

 

If you have no English-language instructions for your Citroen-based Possl, there is a Fiat handbook for the equivalent Euro 5 Ducato that can be downloaded via the fiatcamper website. It might not be 100% applicable to your vehicle, but it should be pretty close when it comes to control and systems functionality.

 

 

[Guest JudgeMental]

Thanks Derek ....No Adria did not have ASR button..but certainly had hill hold. there was no mention of this in handbook or when I ordered it....

 

just looking at German handbook, as you say the switch with picture of wheel loosing traction and throwing up debris is the ASR switch....

[Derek Uzzell]

grahamw - 2014-09-25 7:05 AM

 

...The thought that occurs to me about CB motorhomes is that the reason for a delete option regarding ESC may well be that they will require a full and rigorous Type Approval of the whole vehicle once again and it may be difficult for some CB manufacturers to have the resources to prove that the vehicles ESC system still performs as intended with some body constructions. Fiat will have designed its ESC system with a range of body constructions in mind which may well not cater for all CB manufacturers interpretations. It would be simpler in such cases to use the delete option and avoid issues of the ESC system operating in an unpredictable manner. I assume that Fiat will have issued comprehensive guidelines to manufacturers regarding body design and its interaction with the ESC system.

 

The flaw in that argument is that, when motorhome manufacturers choose to ‘deselect’ the ESC system from an X290 model’s base specification, they then offer it as a cost-option (normally with the Traction+ system added).

 

The 2015 Rapido range (that uses only Ducato X290 chassis) includes ESC in the base specification of just three models all with an overall weight of 4250kg or over. The base specification of every other 2015 Rapido model lacks ESC, but the buyer can specify it (including Traction+) as an option. The cost in France is €550 for Rapido models with a Fiat chassis or €900 for models with an Al-Ko chassis.

 

This policy is evident with other motorhome manufacturers, with ESC being excluded from the base specification but available on the options list. When I asked a Rapido salesman and an Autostar salesman about this, both said the same thing - “It allows the motorhome manufacturer to market the vehicle at a cheaper base-price.”

 

A coachbuilt motorhome with European Community Whole Vehicle Type Approval (ECWVTA) will not have been completely re-engineered by the motorhome manufacturer. The starting point will have been a ‘type approved’ chassis on to which the body and the rest of the gubbins will be grafted. Motorhome manufacturers will definitely not carry out a “...full and rigorous Type Approval of the whole vehicle...”; they will just augment a type-approved chassis. There’s no imperative for the motorhome manufacturer to carry out the type of destructive safety-testing that Bailey (and, in the past, Hymer) have chosen to do, nor to check how a vehicle built on a chassis with or without a system like ESC behaves in extremis.

 

I know that Nick Fisher (euroserv) has expressed doubts about how motorhomes built on chassis with ESC systems will behave given the differences in their design and how they are loaded. However, ESC systems are commonplace on car models where the vehicle design, performance and potential loading can be vary significantly across a model range. For example, a VW Golf design can be 2-door or estate and have power ouputs from 85bhp to 300bhp. Are Golf ESC systems ultra-finely-tuned to be optimum for every model and to handle every significant buyer option (eg, wheel/tyre size choice) perfectly? It would be overly optimistic to expect this to be so.

 

An ESC system is a safety-aid and its nature is such that it’s unlikely to disadvantage a driver. There’s plenty of potential for ABS to turn nasty, but I doubt if anyone would choose not have it on a new vehicle if there were the option to deselect it. Me, I want ESC and, if I have to have Traction+ too and pay for the privilege, I’m prepared to accept that. It does grieve me though that Fiat’s ‘deselection’ policy regarding ESC has evidently resulted in considerable misunderstanding within the motorhome community.

[grahamw]

Derek Uzzell - 2014-09-25 8:57 AM

The flaw in that argument is that, when motorhome manufacturers choose to ‘deselect’ the ESC system from an X290 model’s base specification, they then offer it as a cost-option (normally with the Traction+ system added).

 

Sorry Derek. I wasn't in any way putting a viewpoint that sought to question your analysis in any way. The question you raise and your conclusions make complete sense to me. I should have phrased my contribution differently to make it clearer that I was questioning whether ESC in some circumstances may need to be deselected to avoid a possible conflict between its intended operation and the parameters under which it is being asked to work. The comments you make regarding Nick Fisher and your associated views have answered what was a poorly expressed question. Many thanks.

[Guest JudgeMental]

Derek, have had a look on the ASR button operation on Fiat car forum. the opinion seems to favor leaving it on. As I said earlier I assumed it was for low speed maneuvering. Think I will email the German dealer.

 

It now appears that pressing the switch and turning red light on might actually be turning it off! :-S

 

http://www.fiatforum.com/stilo/135575-traction-control-asr.html

[Robinhood]

JudgeMental - 2014-09-25 11:39 AM

 

Derek, have had a look on the ASR button operation on Fiat car forum. the opinion seems to favor leaving it on. As I said earlier I assumed it was for low speed maneuvering. Think I will email the German dealer.

 

It now appears that pressing the switch and turning red light on might actually be turning it off! :-S

 

http://www.fiatforum.com/stilo/135575-traction-control-asr.html

 

ASR, if fitted, will default to on at each start of the engine and may be turned off by use of the switch. Doing so illuminates the "warning" light.

 

In other words, it is expected that you will run in most circumstances with ASR active.

 

Normally, (and possibly counter-intuitively) one would choose to de-activate it only in some very slippery conditions. A previous car I had was almost undriveable at slow speed in wet snow with it (the equivalent)active, but quite reasonable with it disengaged.

[Guest JudgeMental]

Cheers Robin...Like yo say its a bit counter intuitive but its beginning to sink in! :-D

 

dealer just replied:

 

"Hi Eddie,

 

When the light is on the ASR is switched off. Normally you leave it on all the time and when you drive on a slippy underground it automatically starts to work. Then you will see the light to blink/ get on-off.

 

Mit freundlichen Grüßen"

[Derek Uzzell]

The operation of the ASR feature will normally be well covered in the handbook of any vehicle that has ASR and, if there’s a driver-operated control relating to it, this will also be described. This was true of my Hobby’s Ford Transit handbook, is true of my Skoda car’s handbook, while the Fiat handbooks for Euro 4 and Euro 5 Ducato X250s and for the Ducato X290 all have a section on ASR.

 

For the Ducato Euro 5 X250 the advice is

 

“Switching the system on/off .

 

The ASR system switches on automatically each time the engine is started. The ASR can be turned off and then turned back on again whilst driving by pressing the switch located in the dashboard. The switching off is shown by the LED in the switch itself coming on together with a message shown in the multifunction display for versions/markets where provided. If the ASR is switched off when driving, it is automatically switched on again when the vehicle is started up.

 

When travelling on snowy roads with snow chains, it may be helpful to turn the ASR off: in fact, in these conditions, the driving wheels skidding when moving off gives you better traction.”

 

Switching off ASR when driving on a snowy surface is generally suggested in vehicle handbooks as being potentially beneficial.

 

When a Ducato has the Traction+ system, the “ASR" dashboard-button is replaced by a “T” button. Traction+ selection is the inverse to ASR in that it’s automatically OFF until the driver activates it by pressing the T button, whereas ASR is automatically ON until the driver deactivates it by pressing the ASR button.

 

With Traction+ it’s not possible for a driver to manually turn off ASR alone, but activating Traction+ automatically inhibits ASR while Traction+ is operating. Presumably Traction+ should provide better grip on a snowy surface than would be possible with ASR manually disabled.

 

With the Ducato X290, the dashboard-button relating to ASR is now marked “ASR OFF”, whereas the X250’s ASR-related button was merely marked “ASR”. Seemingly it has taken Fiat 8 years to appreciate that people will expect pressing a button (that then lights up) to switch something ON not OFF.

[Guest JudgeMental]

that is what I did not "get"..Traction seemed better with it switched off (light on) even though I thought I was putting it on:-S while revering up a steep incline or getting off a bogged down pitch this summer in Germany....

[grahamw]

Derek Uzzell - 2014-09-25 1:44 PM

With the Ducato X290, the dashboard-button relating to ASR is now marked “ASR OFF”, whereas the X250’s ASR-related button was merely marked “ASR”. Seemingly it has taken Fiat 8 years to appreciate that people will expect pressing a button (that then lights up) to switch something ON not OFF.

 

Thank you for that Derek. I too have been misusing the system. Out of interest I have just stumbled across some guidance notes from Fiat with regard to the ESC system explaining how converters should comply with certain requirements to ensure that the original Type Approval obtained by them remains valid. The guidance makes reference to the centre of gravity of the converted vehicle remaining within a specified position. The specified position having some flexibility by virtue of the fact that it has a longitudinal range and a vertical range. Presumably manufacturers have merely to check the centre of gravity of the conversion to prove compliance. It does say that "full functionality of ESC is assured when the limits are respected". I'm intrigued to know how you find the centre of gravity of a motorhome? I did read once that by tilting a vehicle at a set incline forwards and then then tilting it at the same incline backwards you could measure the weight shift on each axle from the horizontal and calculate a centre of gravity. The maths I'm afraid would defeat me!

[Muswell]

The longitudinal position is calculated by measuring the 2 axle loads. Multiply one of these by the wheelbase then divide by the sum of the 2 axle loads. The resulting figure is the distance the COG is from the other axle. I'm not sure how you could work out the vertical position unless you lean it to one side until it just starts to fall over :-D . When I was a boy I had a book which showed a London bus being tested that way.

[Guest JudgeMental]

Oops! a daises :-D

[colin]

If fiat supply a vertical CoG for the base and the conversion is drawn on pute then the program can work out the vertical CoG

p.s. yes it can also be worked out from shift in CoG at different inclines, somewhere at work I have the formula but I rarely have to do that so can't recall offhand.

[Muswell]

colin - 2014-09-25 9:47 PM

 

 

p.s. yes it can also be worked out from shift in CoG at different inclines, somewhere at work I have the formula but I rarely have to do that so can't recall offhand.

 

Doesn't seem the sort of thing you could do very easily....I think I would use the computer. You could probably get reasonably close by hand without too much effort.

[Derek Uzzell]

This webpage describes how to calculate a vehicle’s centre of gravity

 

http://carscience.net/how-to-calculate-center-of-gravity/

 

but it does not, of course, provide a datum regarding the distance above the ground that the centre of gravity is.

 

Does anyone believe that motorhome manufacturers actually calculate a ‘vertical’ CofG? I can imagine that they MIGHT check the ‘horiziontal’ CofG, but not the vertical one.

 

I strongly suspect that motorhome designers just use a ‘by eye’, ‘by experience’, and “If it looks OK, it probably is” approach.