Lead v lithium

[Hawcara]

Looking into panel van conversion

 

I know nothing about electrics or batteries but my brother has suggested lithium leisure battery.

 

Without being too technical, could contributors give reasons for or against. I intend to wild camp most of the time with occasional visit to sites. Also with about a 140watt solar panel.

 

I have no leaning either way, lead or lithium.

 

Thank you in advance.

[arthur49]

Try searching the Forum. There's quite a few threads of interest. Here's one https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Lithium-leisure-batteries-/53272/

[Hawcara]

Thank you for that, very interesting.

 

In reality the cost is the biggest factor.

 

What battery, type make, in the lead acid way, do people use?

[arthur49]

This whole website is worth a read - see here

 

http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/battery-technology.php

 

The late Allan Evans of aandn was worth listening to

[Derek Uzzell]

Hawcara

 

Forum members who own fairly new motorhomes are likely to use whatever leisure-battery make and type that the motorhome converter chose to fit when the motorhome was built, and the type might be traditoinal ‘wet-acid’, or gel or AGM. The decision to change to a different make/type will arise when the original battery expires, proves to be problematical, or fails to meet the motorhome owner’s requirements.

 

But If you are going to have a panel-van conversion built to your specification and you know your usage requirements, you will be in the fortunate position of being able to select the make/type of leisure-battery that will be fitted.

 

In the “The Best Batteries” section of the webpage arthur49 has just provided a link to Allan Evans offered five suggestions in price order. The two most expensive batteries are gel type and Allan listed their potential disadvantages. That leaves the the Varta LFD/Bosch L ranges, the Yuasa L36-EFB and the Exide ET650.

 

A Varta LFD90 (£105)

 

https://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/12v-90ah-varta-lfd-90-professional-leisure-battery-930090080/

 

Yuasa L36-EFB (£120)

 

https://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/12v-yuasa-100ah-efb-leisure-battery-l36-efb/

 

and Exide ET650 (£140)

 

https://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/12v-100ah-exide-et650-leisure-battery-ncc-class-a/

 

all have similar physical dimensions (though I see that Alpha Batteries states that their warranty is 2, 3 or 4 years respectively) and received wisdom is that the Halfords HLB700 battery

 

https://www.halfords.com/motoring/bulbs-blades-batteries/leisure-batteries/halfords-leisure-battery-hlb700

 

is a ‘relabelled’ Yuasa L36-EFB (but slightly cheaper).

 

Past comments from forum members have been positive about the Varta LFD90 that Allan Evans began to recommend several years ago. For off-site camping you will probably need a pair of 90Ah/100Ah leisure-batteries, so two LFD90s for around £210 should suit. Or you could pay a bit extra for more ‘modern’ products and opt for two Yuasa/Halfords batteries or two Exide ET650s.

 

You might save a few quid and some payload by opting for one large battery - say a Varta LFD140 - but installing this could be more challenging (eg. it would not fit under a cab-seat) and manhandling a single 37kg LFD140 battery would require more muscle-power than each of a pair of 26kg LFD90s.

 

 

[Hawcara]

Thank you for that interesting respnse, much appreciated

[coppo]

We are still using original gel batteries on our van, March 2005 registered, x2 140AH so my vote goes to gel.

[ageingandrew]

Hawcara,

 

There is no shortage of good information on lifepo4 (lithium) vs lead acid technology around on the internet and there is also the aandn website.

 

Yuasa and Exide both have recommendations that EFB batteries are really only suited to “light” and infrequent off grid usage and even Varta specify the LFD range of batteries as ‘Designed for standard motorhomes, caravans and boats with low or moderate energy demands’.

 

Your selection of battery should depend on how you will use it, how you will charge it and what devices you will drive from it. For example some modern camper van conversions use compressor fridges, which present a much greater demand on the battery than do absorption type fridges.

 

Wild camping regularly with a lead-acid or EFB battery will require you to have Alphabatteries or similar on speed dial as this battery technology is only capable of at most 200 cycles so will require frequent replacement.

 

I see that the Relion 100Ah Lifepo4 is currently selling for £799.98 at Alphabatteries. This sounds expensive against the LFD90 currently selling at £105, however with LiFePo4 you can discharge down to 20% of capacity rather than only 50% with lead-acid so giving you far more usable capacity than something like the LFD90. The LiFePo4 also has a life expectancy of greater than 2000 cycles compared to the LFD's 200 cycles..

 

I suggest you do some research, but not on the aandn website, there are far better sources of unbiased information around.

 

Andrew

[Derek Uzzell]

ageingandrew - 2019-11-10 10:15 AM

,

...I suggest you do some research, but not on the aandn website, there are far better sources of unbiased information around.

 

Andrew

 

Please you could provide links to the “far better sources of unbiased information”?

[plwsm2000]

Derek Uzzell - 2019-11-10 11:18 AM

 

ageingandrew - 2019-11-10 10:15 AM

,

...I suggest you do some research, but not on the aandn website, there are far better sources of unbiased information around.

 

Andrew

 

Please you could provide links to the “far better sources of unbiased information”?

I would be very interested in seeing that too.

 

Although I have seen many reviews of LiFePo4 showing their far superior discharge characteristics over Lead Acid types, I have not found an abundance of unbiased information about charging LiFePo4 in typical motorhome setups (apart from Allan's website).

 

I believe it is the case that the large majority of motorhome chargers and alternators are not suitable to charge LiFePo4 without significant modification or extra equipment. If not properly charged, Lithiums will not give the expected performance or lifetime as in the published datasheets.

 

 

[arthur49]

Derek Uzzell - 2019-11-10 11:18 AM

 

ageingandrew - 2019-11-10 10:15 AM

,

...I suggest you do some research, but not on the aandn website, there are far better sources of unbiased information around.

 

Andrew

 

Please you could provide links to the “far better sources of unbiased information”?

 

Me too please.

 

As I've stated on here before I'm open to persuasion, not by marketing b****** but fact based. One lithium retailer on here a few months ago stated he had tested lithium to destruction. When asked twice to give full details, it went very quiet. See here:

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Wonder-if-they-will-catch-on-here/51044/

 

And there is a link to this Youtube video in one of threads shown here but this shows why I believe lithium is for expert installation at a cost probably a lot more than the battery cost

 

 

Lithium may very well be the way forward Hawcara but don't be drawn in by the fantasy merchants

[spirou]

 

Link above shows how easy it is to destroy an alternator while charging lithium batteries. For succesful and safe installation of lithium batteries the entire industry needs a serious re-education and systems redesign and that's just not going to happen anytime soon. I'm relatively new to this game and I've already seen my fair share of terrible MH electrical systems and met too many MH electricians/installers/line workers who, in principle usually agree with me, but are under pressure from their superiors to deliver a product that will work well enough but not much more than that. Lead batteries are fairly tolerant of such practice and cheap enough to replace in a few years so nobody minds too much. Not quite the story with lithium. If current practices continue and systems are unable to deal with owner ignorance and mistreatment, then you're going to end up with a lot of trouble. It's already happening with ebikes/scooters/phones etc. which are infinitely less complex or dangerous when it comes to how much damage can be done or how easy it is to protect against abuse

 

But if you know what you're doing and you can design the system from the ground up and can ultimately afford it....go for it.

[arthur49]

And this is the sort of confusion that retailers create - from this link https://www.ksenergy.co.uk/

 

"KS energy batteries have been designed to be a like for like no-nonsense drop in replacement for older AGM, GEL or lead-acid deep cycle leisure batteries. There is no requirement for you to change or modify your existing mains charger and our batteries can be charged directly from the vehicles existing standard fixed voltage 14.4V alternator"

 

Nothing could be clearer: yet the Victron video shows how easily an alternator can be stressed?? On KS Energy Facebook page, they are introducing a B2B - see here https://www.facebook.com/ksenergy

 

So if their lithium batteries are a straight drop in, why introduce a B2B? Be interesting to see clarification that this is not being introduced simply to cope with lithium batteries

 

 

[curdle]

In their 2020 catalogue for accessories, Hymer have introduced what they call a 2 block lithium battery as an upgrade expansion to an existing AGM battery. They claim:

 

"Perfect upgrade expansion: The HY-Tec 45 2-block is an excellent choice for customers who want to retrofit a second battery to increase the

available capacity. Compared to retrofitting another AGM battery, the existing lead battery (AGM) can continue to be used and does not need

to be replaced**. An optimal solution – even when replacing the AGM batteries due to wear.

Flexible: If required, the system can also be expanded with one or more HY-Tec 45 2-blocks; this can also be done in stages.

Optional extra: Display set

Dimensions (W x H x L): 122 x 175 x 229 mm

Weight: 6.8 kg

Package contents: 1 x LI battery (2 blocks), 1 x 2-way connection cable for the AGM battery, 1 x cable set, 1 x operating instructions, 1 x 30 A

fuse. Installation of the HYMER Smart Battery System must be carried out by your HYMER dealer. For further information, please contact your

HYMER dealer.

Article No. 3071889 – 2-block € 799.00"

 

It appears, however, that they have neglected to pass this information onto UK Hymer dealers, who claim that the only path is to retrofit the whole system.

[ageingandrew]

Derek, just do a google search for "lFP4 vs lead-acid" and ignore all the battery sellers links returned. For a military review of batteries (ie non commercial and nothing to sell) the document at https://www.dst.defence.gov.au/sites/default/files/publications/documents/DST-Group-TN-1597.pdf in particular section 5.3.1.5 and appendix B.

 

Link to electronic products summarises why Nato is replacing their lead-acid vehicle batteries with LFP4.

 

https://www.epectec.com/articles/lead-acid-vs-lithium-military-battery-packs.html is another, the list is huge.

 

The military links are non-commercial, ie nothing to sell, no need to exaggerate pros and cons, no "agenda" to try and pursue.

 

BatteryUniversity.com is another source of non-commercial info.

 

For more commercial info Roadpro has a decent lithium battery page at https://www.roadpro.co.uk/lithium-battery-guide

 

The battery is only one component of a motorhomes power system, how you charge and discharge a battery determine its longevity and its performance regardless of the battery chemistry.

 

[ageingandrew]

 

...and I forgot to add take a look at Victron's pages where there is a load of good information with wiring diagrams and how to wire up li-ion battery systems from alternator, charger, solar etc with the appropriate level of protection.

[plwsm2000]

ageingandrew - 2019-11-11 10:55 AM

...

...

The battery is only one component of a motorhomes power system, how you charge and discharge a battery determine its longevity and its performance regardless of the battery chemistry.

I quite agree - and that is why (IMO) LiFePo4 are not suitable for most motorhomes UNLESS you spend the extra upgrading cabling, alternator, chargers, BMS etc. to ensure they are charged correctly. I am not disputing that they are much better batteries IF you sort out these charging issues.

 

Out of interest, I looked at some of your links but could not find anything new that is related to typical motorhome installations. If anything, they support what has already been said. In particular, the first document states (on page 9) -

... Therefore, vehicles in the past have not required charging control systems. However, alternative battery technologies such as Li-ion batteries have much stricter limits on charging current to ensure battery safety since they cannot intrinsically absorb excessive charging current. It is likely that additional charging controls will be required to be added to military land vehicles using these batteries. ..... Modification of a vehicle’s charging system or addition of a BMS could lead to significant changes to a vehicle’s electrical system at a large cost in resources.

 

As an aside, I am surprised that they do not mention that LiFePo4 cannot be charged at low temperature even though they say the vehicle needs to operate from -30 to +60C.

 

[colin]

plwsm2000 - 2019-11-12 7:21 PM

 

As an aside, I am surprised that they do not mention that LiFePo4 cannot be charged at low temperature even though they say the vehicle needs to operate from -30 to +60C.

 

That's maybe because there are now batteries which can be charged at low temperatures, here's a commercial one.

https://relionbattery.com/blog/lithium-battery-cold-weather

[arthur49]

colin - 2019-11-12 8:18 PM

 

plwsm2000 - 2019-11-12 7:21 PM

 

As an aside, I am surprised that they do not mention that LiFePo4 cannot be charged at low temperature even though they say the vehicle needs to operate from -30 to +60C.

 

That's maybe because there are now batteries which can be charged at low temperatures, here's a commercial one.

https://relionbattery.com/blog/lithium-battery-cold-weather

 

But the battery needs to be heated before charging can begin. Where does that heating power come from off EHU?

[arthur49]

Andrew

 

I don't believe even the late Allan Evans denied lithium batteries were a great advance in battery technology.

 

His words "We love Lithium batteries they have revolutionised our World." I'm no expert on battery types but my phone/tablet etc don't use sealed lead acid batteries!

 

The links you provided show no information on how lithium batteries can be used in a motorhome.

 

What I dislike is lithium retailers claiming, for example, these batteries are a drop in replacement for the gel/agm/lead-acid - see link above.

 

Roadpro sell their cheapest 100Ah lithium battery for £1200. On top of that a B2B may be required to protect alternator say another £300 + better cabling + professional fitting, and the basic price of battery is nowhere near £1200, more like £2000?

 

Now some may consider that value for money and its not for me to judge.

 

I repeat, what I do object to, is the marketing b****** and I think you'll find that was a major part of Allan Evan's "beef".

 

[spirou]

colin - 2019-11-12 9:18

 

That's maybe because there are now batteries which can be charged at low temperatures, here's a commercial one.

https://relionbattery.com/blog/lithium-battery-cold-weather

 

Built in heater that needs to heat up to 5°C before charging begins. I would asume it's a heating coil such as are available for floor heating, tank heating etc. not a heat pump that might actually do it efficiently. So presuming this all happens in winter amd you've left the MH for a few days/weeks, you need to shut down the solar charger as it won't have enough power (asuming typical 100-300W) to run the heating and it shouldn't be charging the battery (or just leave the logic to a BMS).

 

When the MH is in use the space heater is good enough for keeping the temperature up, in all other cases I don't see how you can avoid EHU before you get to use the MH. If you can run a cable to it then great, if not then you need to be sure the BMS can prevent any charge going in (alternator, solar...) Typically it shouldn't be a problem but as said before I've seen some strange wiring logic. So straight replacement is not as likely as some marketing suggests. It just really needs to be done right and prevent/guard against user error.

[Derek Uzzell]

This 2018 webpage mentioned a business link between the Rapido motorhome builder and a lithium-battery manufacturer

 

https://www.aboutcampbtob.eu/super-b-selected-as-exclusive-lithium-batteries-supplier-to-rapido/

 

I notice that - for the 2020 model-year - Rapido still tends to install as standard a single 100Ah ‘lead’ leisure-battery with a 2nd one as an option.

 

However, on some mid-range A-class models pre-wiring for a living-area lithium battery is provided. The more expensive Rapido A-class designs have the lithium pre-wiring plus (on some models) a single 90Ah “Super B Epsilon” lithium batter as standard with a 2nd as an option, or on others one or two optional lithium batteries. The weight of the 100Ah lead battery is given as 27kg and the lithium battery weighs 12.5kg - so specifying two lithium batteries rather than two lead batteries should save 29kg.

 

I don’t know how much Rapido will be asking for their lithium-battery options, but the UK retail asking-price for a 90Ah Super B Epsilon battery is currently around £1500.

 

This 2018 blog may be worth ploughing through

 

https://rvblog.co.uk/european-motorhome-tour/the-pros-and-cons-of-lithium-batteries-for-motorhomes/

[ageingandrew]

Hello Arthur,

 

Like I stated in my post “The battery is only one component of a motorhomes power system, how you charge and discharge a battery determine its longevity and its performance regardless of the battery chemistry”.

 

A motorhome is no different from any other vehicle that requires an off grid power supply, whether that vehicle be a caravan, military vehicle, boat or whatever. A lithium battery can be used in any situation as long as the system of which it is part is suitable and that the system is used within its stated specifications and parameters.

 

Yes, a B2B would be required, as would a BMS, battery protection etc and it’s going to cost more than an LFD90. However, the payback is a battery system capable of delivering far more power, ability to discharge to a greater depth, ability to charge far quicker, exhibit far more charge/discharge cycles and having far greater longevity than the lead-acid weight for weight equivalent.

 

When I come to replace my van batteries lithium will be an option, however, I will consider the alternator charging capability, BMS & isolation, cabling, mains charger etc so I will NOT see lithium as a “drop in” replacement.

 

As for value for money, well, it all depends on how you want to use your vehicle. If you want to be off grid pretty much all of the time, maybe travel extensively to remote locations where EHU is rare then a lithium based system is probably the most suitable. However, if you have access to EHU, drive a few hours every 2 or 3 days or so then you can get by with a cheaper and less capable 12V system.

 

My beef with Allan’s page is that, like so many of his other pages, he does not consider the battery as part of a system. Instead his focus is on the spec sheets and marketing hype, so he misses the big picture. On this particular topic I would much rather take a lead from various military organisations who are running programmes to replace lead-acid batteries with lithium and who have very demanding requirements for mobile off-grid power systems.

 

Andrew

[Derek Uzzell]

Sadly, Allan Evans is not able to discuss the points you’ve raised.

[spirou]

You just have to read his texts as being written by someone who was tired of marketing BS, working on terrible installations and consulting people who did consider batteries as something that has to work no matter what they subject them to. From that perspective a battery really is just a battery and not a part of a system.