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Leisure battery discharging..


Rexy55

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Hi

I have a Majestic 105 that is 4 months old.It has a 95a/h hour Yuasa AGM battery and a 100w Truma solar panel/charger.

We have noticed that when driving the leisure battery seems to discharge up to 1.6v.

We went to Exmoor for a couple of nights wild camping a month ago and could'nt understand why we didn't have much power,12.5v, on the first night and then when we stopped for the second night it was down to 11.9.

Needless to say we did'nt turn much on that night as we didn't want to damage anything.By the time we left in the morning the voltage was up to 12.2 because of the solar panel??...However by the time we had got home it was down to 11.2!!!....Major panic,but hooked it up at home and was reading 14.4 the next morning.

 

I then took it back to dealers who tested the battery with a gadget that printed a read out and said that there was nothing wrong with it.They apparently tested everything and could'nt find anything?...Answer was to go away again and use it!!.. if battery goes dead..they'll replace it!!!..Which to me doesn't solve the problem if there is one??..

 

Last week away we went!!..off to Wales for 6 days.We would have liked to do some more wild camping but did'nt trust the battery to give us enough power so booked in to a site.When left home it was 14.2 and on arrival at campsite it was 12.45(213 miles).The next day on leaving it was 14.1 and reduced to 12.4 on arrival at next site(147 miles).We stayed at a site with no EHU for the third night and expected the battery to be still fully charged on arrival as it was only 8 miles away,however it reduced from 14.4 to 13.09 in those 8 miles.Still gave us enough power for the night though and the solar panel kept it topped up.When we left that site it was reading 13.3 but by the time we had arrived at our next site it had reduced to 12.56(71miles).

The next morning after a night of EHU it was reading 14.4,however on driving 40 miles it had reduced to 12.8 but we decided that we could risk a night off H/U.Which was great as that was what we really wanted the van for.The solar panel charged it back up to 12.86 before we left for home.However on arrival at home it was back down to 11.49.

 

Sorry if it was a bit long winded but have tried give as much info as possible.

Will be ringing the dealer tomorrow but wanted some more ideas as to what the problem might be before as they dont instill me with much confidence.Usually takes them 3 visits to sort out a problem!!

 

Regards

Rexy

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Did the dealer not warn you that the charging systems in your vehicle are not suitable for an AGM battery which requires higher charge voltages to charge fully and give optimum life?

 

 

The voltages you are quoting are not the battery voltage, but the charging systems voltage.

To try and explain that - If you have a battery at 11.5v and turn on the mains charger it will start charging the battery at 14.3v and the volt meter will show this charge at the battery terminals. If you turn off the charger straight away the voltage will slowly drop back down to 11.5v to demonstrate that the battery really still is at 11.5v.

 

If any charging system is active, like mains charger, Solar Regulator or engine Alternator the voltmeter will only be able to display the voltage at the battery terminals. The actual battery voltage may be quite different.

Therefore in order to check the battery voltage it needs to be "off charge", and has been for a few hours. In your case, because you won't get an accurate reading while the sun is up and charging the battery, you would either need to disable the solar some hours prior to taking the reading or check it several hours after sunset.

 

So Sorry but many of you voltage readings don't help, however, I am concerned that you say -

"Major panic, but hooked it up at home and was reading 14.4 the next morning" as I would have expected the battery to be fully charged by the morning and the mains/Solar chargers to have dropped to 13.8v "fully charged" Float voltage.

That indicates the battery has a problem in not getting fully charged in that time.

 

Ask the Dealer to Capacity test the battery in front of you to ascertain it's true state, it will need to be disconnected from the vehicle (which I bet they didn't do) otherwise the Solar charge will skew the results, making the battery look better than it actually is. You obviously can't test a battery while it is being charged.

Note the test figures/printout and record them on here with the battery model.

 

 

 

 

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Sorry, I have been emailed to suggest I reread the above as it sounds dismissive, which it does so sorry.

 

What I was trying to say was that while a voltage of 14.4v might look like a charged battery, it might have actually been down at 12.1v for all we know so hard to know if there is an issue or not.

 

The other thing missing is what appliances/devices you were using. Are the lights LED, was the heater blower/pump on low all night, how many hours TV, etc.

 

It is important to know how much power you are drawing to work out if the battery voltage is dropping in line with that draw.

 

Also suggested that you take a voltage reading at the habitation batteries with the engine running (at fast idle) and the Fridge on 12v and a second reading with the engine running but the Fridge 'Off'.

Then take a reading of the Starter battery voltage with the engine running.

 

That will indicate whether the Alternator charging is working ok.

 

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Hi

Thanks for replies

Arthur49-yes all readings were taken with a multimeter.The control panel is another problem altogether!!!...been back to dealer three times already for that to be fixed and still not convinced that it now works properly..

aandn caravan-thanks for your detailed reply,not dismissive to me..I think I may have confused matters with all the figures!!...I only seem to have a problem when driving,it seems as if the leisure battery discharges rather than charges whilst on the road.

The charging system and agm battery was in the van when we bought so wouldn't have questioned it.This is our first van so are learning as we go and relying on what our dealer tells us?!!..

All other readings once battery is charged but off hook up seem to be OK.

The nights we had off hook up.We had TV on for an hour,the heater was on night time setting all night but pump was off.lights are all led but we only have on whats needed.The voltage only went down to 12.5v.

I have just read the battery now(ten to one in morning) as suggested and it reads 13.02v.

I will take readings with fridge on and off,from both batteries tomorrow

Regards

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Rexy55, 13.0v is a good start as that is the fully charged voltage of an AGM/VRLA battery. I have published a chart below that will help you work out how discharged/charged your batteries are.

It is recommended by most big Leisure battery manufacturers that 50% Depth Of Discharge (DOD) is the lowest you should take a battery for the best compromise between optimum life and usability.

 

I have not been well the last couple of weeks and off to the hospital today and probably tomorrow, so I am hoping that Arthur will look after you as he knows your vehicles set-up inside out, the strengths, weaknesses, etc.

When you post the voltages, it might help Arthur if you listed the Sargent ECxxx power unit and the LCD Display you have installed.

1806735006_BatteryYuasastateofChargeChart.jpg.601032b2769b57a3f7b9ed615472cd97.jpg

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Aandncaravan,thanks for that and hope all goes well at the hospital.

As for Sargent ECxxx power unit,I dont understand what or where I would find it and I dont have an LCD display.

As for voltages they are slightly higher than the quoted figures in the manual and I was aware that you shouldn't use more than 50% of available power hence why I am concerned at the low levels after driving.It confirms to me that there isn't a problem when on EHU or when solar panel is charging.But there is something going on to cause it to discharge when driving?..

Regards

Rexy

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Check under the bench, beds, driver/passenger seat or anywhere your leisure battery is located. The charger and other electronics are usually nearby if not in the same compartment. If it's a van I've also seen electronics in lounge cupboards or the shelf above drivers head.

 

It will be somewhere out of the way but not totally inaccessible.

 

PS get well Allan

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Hi

Spirou-many thanks ,will have a look,it was under bed on top of box which I thought was just the fuse box!!!

The label says it is motorhome Autoquest Accordo Lin50 PDU.

Aandncaravan-as suggested the voltages are as follows:-

Habitation battery

Engine on,fridge off was 14.15-14.18v

Engine on,fridge on was 12.8 dropping to 12.5 within a minute.

Engine battery voltage was 14.4.

Regards

Rexy

 

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Rexy,

 

Where the voltages measured during daylight (when the solar panel would have been producing a {small} charge)?

 

If so please can I ask you to remove the fuse for the solar panel (or cover the panel, or test in darkness) as I think the solar output is skewing the readings.

 

Keith.

 

Edit to explain my reasoning...

 

Engine on,fridge off was 14.15-14.18v you are measuring solar output voltage

Engine on,fridge on was 12.8 dropping to 12.5 within a minute. Solar output cannot match demand and voltage falls

Engine battery voltage was 14.4. True charging voltage of alternator

 

In summary you have no alternator charge at leisure battery!

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Hi

Thanks Keithl,the readings were taken at approx 7 o'clock this evening.I will redo them tomorrow as you suggest.

However if as you suggest there is no alternator charge at leisure how would that be fixed.

Regards

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Rexy55 - 2019-04-02 10:35 PM

 

Hi

Thanks Keithl,the readings were taken at approx 7 o'clock this evening.I will redo them tomorrow as you suggest.

However if as you suggest there is no alternator charge at leisure how would that be fixed.

Regards

 

Seen as your MH is only four months old I would suggest returning to your dealer under warranty. Or at least a phone call to ask for advice, they may know the location of a fuse or relay to check.

 

Keith.

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Thanks.

I was going to ring the dealer but wanted to know if anyone else had an idea what was wrong or had experience of the same problem first.

I had been to them after it happened on our last trip but their answer was that there was nothing wrong with the battery and all tests came back positive.And to go away again and if battery dies they will just replace it and don't worry about it.

Which isn't solving the problem hence why I asked on here so that I would have some more insight/info to give them.

I would like to use van more for wild camping but I feel that isn't going to happen until this is sorted.

Regards

Rexy

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Rexy,

 

Do you have means of isolating the solar panel, ie Switch or fuse, or is it easy to cover with a large piece of cardboard or carpet? You definitely need a means to isolate it before returning to the dealer.

 

Ideally before, or at least as soon as, you arrive at the dealership isolate the solar.

 

Then perform your leisure battery voltage measurements above to demonstrate the lack of alternator charge.

 

Engine off (no solar) = ?

Engine running (no fridge) = ?

Engine running WITH fridge = ?

Engine battery with engine running = TRUE charging voltage

 

I would expect the first three voltage to be mid 12's and falling with each test (as you saw above) and never reach the 14.4 V of your alternator output.

 

These tests should conclusively prove the alternator charge is not reaching the leisure battery.

 

Keith.

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aandncaravan - 2019-04-02 9:13 AM

 

Rexy55, 13.0v is a good start as that is the fully charged voltage of an AGM/VRLA battery. I have published a chart below that will help you work out how discharged/charged your batteries are.

It is recommended by most big Leisure battery manufacturers that 50% Depth Of Discharge (DOD) is the lowest you should take a battery for the best compromise between optimum life and usability.

 

I have not been well the last couple of weeks and off to the hospital today and probably tomorrow, so I am hoping that Arthur will look after you as he knows your vehicles set-up inside out, the strengths, weaknesses, etc.

When you post the voltages, it might help Arthur if you listed the Sargent ECxxx power unit and the LCD Display you have installed.

 

Firstly get well soon Allan.

 

Bearing this chart in mind. Is my yuasa L36efb a sealed vrla or conventional battery. If so is it therefore safe to run battery down to 12.1v i.e. 50% dod ?

 

Regards

 

Gareth

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These two recent-ish threads relate to Elddis “Accordo” motorhomes

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/2018-Elddis-Accordo-105-Fuses/51011/

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/New-Elddis-Accordo-105-Water-Battery-Meter/50790/

 

The electrical system discussed there was based on BCA equipment and, as Rexy55 mentioned a "Autoquest Accordo Lin50 PDU” in the posting of 2 April 2019 8:29 PM above, it’s near certain that BCA equipment is also used in his motorhome.

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Hi Keith

I removed the fuse marked solar from the main fuse box under the bed but it didn't make a difference,it read 14.2 with it in and out!!..so have I got the right one?

I then covered the solar panel with cardboard and a black towel.The readings were then as follows:-

 

Engine off (no solar) = 13.35

Engine running (no fridge) = 13.25

Engine running WITH fridge = 13.00 but quickly dropped to 12.45 before stabilising

Engine battery with engine running = 14.16

 

Regards

Rexy

 

Hi Derek

Thanks for the those links.I've had a quick look and will no doubt comment on them as I've had same problem with control panel.Have been back to Marquis 3 times for that already for repair....and still didn't seem to work 100% last week,but only froze for a few minutes rather than for a few days before!!!

 

One other query,we had condensation on the inside of all 4 habitation windows at various times during the week.Is this something that shouldn't happen or something we have get used to?

 

Regards

Rexy

 

 

 

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Rexy55 - 2019-04-03 8:45 PM

 

Hi Keith

I removed the fuse marked solar from the main fuse box under the bed but it didn't make a difference,it read 14.2 with it in and out!!..so have I got the right one?

I then covered the solar panel with cardboard and a black towel.The readings were then as follows:-

 

Engine off (no solar) = 13.35

Engine running (no fridge) = 13.25

Engine running WITH fridge = 13.00 but quickly dropped to 12.45 before stabilising

Engine battery with engine running = 14.16

 

Regards

Rexy

 

Hi Rexy,

 

That demonstrates absolutely 100% that the alternator IS NOT charging the leisure battery and is what you need to demonstrate to the dealer. Ideally cover the solar panel for a couple of hours to let the leisure battery stabilise before performing the test at the dealers.

 

And doesn't look like that's the fuse you need. Is there possibly a fuse by the solar regulator?

 

Keith.

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buddy - 2019-04-04 11:03 AM

 

Keith, Is it possible that when Rexy removes the solar fuse the battery would show the same reading for short period (due to surface charge) but would drop down if left removed ?

 

Quite possible!

 

Rexy, could you try turning some lights on to reduce the surface charge?

 

Rexy55 - 2019-04-03 10:30 PM

 

Hi Keith

Thanks for that, I will look for another fuse tomorrow.

What will I expect the dealer to do to fix the alternator problem?

Regards

Rexy

 

Sorry, I missed your last line last night.

 

They will need to check all fuses, relays and wiring for a failure or break. It is pretty difficult go further by remote control and not knowing exactly where or how things are wired.

 

Do you know if the alternator charge to the leisure battery has ever worked? It might be the 'cause' of your other reported problems?

 

Keith.

 

PS If your dealer is struggling to understand the failure maybe ask them if you can take it to an auto electrician IF they agree to pay the bill. My suggestion then would be a trip to North Wales to see A and N Caravan (Allan) as I am sure he would sort it out.

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Hi Keith

No problem on missing last night,I'm very grateful that you are helping me understand what might be the problem.Certainly more help than the dealer has been..

I'm off out for a bit later but I'll remove the same fuse and take a reading before I go and see what it's like when I get back.

Not sure if it has ever worked as only noticed it when returning from Exmoor which was our first long trip away.But would probably say that it hasn't??!!..

It's a shame I didn't find this forum earlier as I was only a few miles(Bodnant) from A and N Caravans last week!!

Regards

Rexy

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I too hope Allan feels better quickly .... and he gives me too much credit in helping find a solution. Its true I know my van's electrics in great detail (thanks to Allan and others on here) but we have just traded in for new van and suffering our own issues on electrics!

 

Our new van has a smart alternator and regenerative/recuperative braking. That is causing charging issues whilst driving in that we have a short burst of battery damaging 15.2v whilst braking but typically getting anywhere between 12.6v and 13.9v which is not going to fully charge 2 x 100Ah VRLA batteries in any reasonable time. And when the engine is started the cab and leisure batteries are linked through split charge relay and leisure can 'feed' the cab resulting in lost capacity, aggravating the poor charging whilst driving?

 

I don't know what your base vehicle has ie standard or smart alternator. I identified smart alternator by using one of these and putting it into cigarette type socket where I saw voltages fluctuate roughly 12.6v to 15.2v.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12V-24V-LED-Car-Cigarette-Socket-Voltmeter-Voltage-Battery-Tester-Detector-Meter/273246877930?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2648

 

Incidentally I was told by dealer the other day that all PSA vans (Ducato, Boxer, Relay) will have smart alternators starting summer 2019 so if anyone is in the market for a new van, check it out first! I did, but was wrongly assured it had a standard alternator!

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Keith

I removed solar fuse as suggested and took a reading with the fuse in and with it out for 4 hrs and it read 14.2 both times.I also turned some lights on with fuse out and it read 13.2.On turning lights off again it went back 14.2.

Rexy

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