Leisure battery recommendation

[Mickt]

I have been running 2 Banner 110amp leisure batteries for nearly the past 5 years.

My charger is a Nordelettronica TE43 and i have a 80 watt solar panel. What is the best batteries to replace these with, most of my camping is of grid

[weldted]

Fitted two Youasa L36-EFB 100 amp in Aug, very pleased with their performance, wild camp all the time but have 300 watts of Solar but they are a great improvement on previous batteries I have had.

[Derek Uzzell]

Mickt

 

If you currently have Banner “Energy Bull” 95751 batteries, then the Varta LFD90 or the Yuasa L36-EFB should be a direct replacement as far as dimensions are concerened.

 

The Varta LFD90 used to be this forum's ‘flavour of the month’ - more recently the Yuasa product has found favour.

 

This link refers

 

http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/battery-technology.php

[RMP]

I'm in a similar predicament. The Varta AGM battery in my Hymer is on it's way out. I've read how good the Varta LFD90 and Yuasa L36-EFB batteries are. Can anyone offer advice on the Exide ET650 semi traction battery? It looks good on paper, but I need to know if a vent tube can be fitted, as the battery compartment on my van is inboard, with a hole for the current vent tube.

[aandncaravan]

RMP - 2018-12-03 11:14 PM

 

I'm in a similar predicament. The Varta AGM battery in my Hymer is on it's way out. I've read how good the Varta LFD90 and Yuasa L36-EFB batteries are. Can anyone offer advice on the Exide ET650 semi traction battery? It looks good on paper, but I need to know if a vent tube can be fitted, as the battery compartment on my van is inboard, with a hole for the current vent tube.

 

 

The ET650 is our Best buy Heavy Duty battery giving about 360 cycles.

 

As it says on the battery Technology web page linked by Derek above :

 

"The Varta LFD/Bosch L range is our "Best Budget Buy". Guide price £105.

The Yuasa L36-EFB is our "Best Mid range" battery. Guide price £119.

The Exide ET650 is our "Best Buy Heavy Duty" battery £160.

The Exide ES900 is our "Best Buy Deep Cycling" battery. Guide price £180".

 

 

But that doesn't mean a battery of double the cost will have double the life of a Varta's typical 4 - 5 years.

You have probably already found out with your alleged 'super long life AGM's' that they didn't last the usual 4 years of a Varta LFD90, let alone the 8 - 10 years life the 'double the cost' AGM battery should deliver.

 

In a laboratory environment where batteries are cycled repeatedly, almost without break, the results can be very different to real world use.

 

If you are living in the vehicle full time and cycling an Exide ET650 every day, it will be good value.

But if there are weeks when it doesn't get used or long periods when it is partially discharged, the results can be very different. Maybe, an expensive, supposedly long life battery not reaching the claimed cycle life.

 

The Bosch L series and Varta LFD ranges are super tolerant of the way the typical motorhome treats a Habitation area battery.

Some of the Longer life batteries need more controlled conditions to achieve their claimed capability. Remember that when these laboratory tests are done, the battery is sat in a Water Bath to both keep the battery cool and the temperature constant. The voltage and current are accurately controlled, etc.

 

Unless you are sure the conditions in which you use your vehicle will be optimum for an expensive battery, then I would suggest you play safe and stick with the Varta LFD90.

After all £200 worth of Varta's will deliver over 400 cycles versus a single Exide ET650's 360 cycles at £170.

They are not that far apart in £ per cycle, but one is as tough as old boots and the Exide needs tender loving care to get the best from it.

This isn't a criticism of the ET650, it applies to most of the high cycling batteries, which you will note rarely have a Warranty much longer than a Varta LFD90's, despite the often claimed greater mega cyclic life.

 

 

 

[Mickt]

Would you not fit the Yuasa rather than a Varta to give a few more amps,handy in the winter when off grid.

Only about a tenner difference in the price

[aandncaravan]

Mickt - 2018-12-04 10:08 AM

 

Would you not fit the Yuasa rather than a Varta to give a few more amps, handy in the winter when off grid.

Only about a tenner difference in the price

 

 

Mickt, yes if it was me I would fit the Yuasa L36-EFB as the EN50342 test data we have shows it achieved over 230 cycles as opposed to the Varta's 200 cycles and as you say it's a 100Ah battery.

Although Yuasa print 200 cycles on the battery case it achieved more and it achieved those results at a battery challenging 16v charge rate.

This should be one of those batteries that out performs it's 'paper' specification by a huge margin in the real world.

It's EFB Carbon Technology should make it pretty close to, if not exceed, the Varta LFD's life time.

 

However, my specific reply was aimed at the Hymer owner who previously had short life AGM batteries and in many cases it isn't so easy to add Gas venting on vehicles that tended to have AGM's fitted without a vent tube

Like Gel and AGM batteries the Varta is gas free so is safer than a Gel or AGM without a vent pipe, so I thought it may be an easier option for him.

 

While Yuasa claim the L36-EFB as 100% none gassing, they still suggest a vent pipe on the battery.

 

 

While the new Yuasa EFB batteries should outperform their paper spec, the lower technology Exide ET650 is likely to under perform in real use.

However, we have heard there is a high technology Enhanced Flooded Battery (EFB) version of the ET650 on the way next year. Now that should be one cracking battery.

 

Banner are also due to introduce an EFB high technology L5 (353x190x175) sized casing next year.

 

So 2019 looks set to be a good year for Motorhome owners, with lots of great improvements and changes on the way.

More than ever the gap between the budgets and the big names will widen, making the likes of a Platinum LB6110, with it's measly 70 cycles at an inflated £109 price tag, stand out for the poor value they are.

 

How can the NCC 'Verify' such a poor battery, with it's Trading Standards annoying slogan on the battery case that proclaims "Extra Long Life" when even a seven year old can see that against a Varta's 200 cycles, 70 cycles is extra short life.

 

Good job we can rely on the NCC to weed out the rubbish batteries.

 

 

[dipsticks]

This thread seems ideal place for my questions and hopefully Allan or anyone else might be able to help me.

 

I have a 2007 Mk 7 2.4 TDI Ford Transit based camper van that was delivered by Ford with two batteries under the drivers seat. One is a Ford Silver Calcium Battery which seems to be the Starter Battery and also a Varta Hobby Battery 952 052 000 which seems to be part of the vehicle electrics when the engine is running only. Functions seem to be controlled by a bi-stable relay in the seat base box. I think the engine alternator charging is referred to as ‘smart charging’

 

The converter has used the Varta, called by Ford ‘The Auxiliary Battery’ as the leisure battery to run all the camping electrics. Some years ago I doubled up on the Varta battery with an identical model, connecting them both in parallel and siting the extra battery under the passenger seat. There is an 18A 3 stage mains charger by Plug in Systems which seems to cope whenever required, but as we mostly camp off grid I added a couple of solar panels and use a Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT charge regulator. The whole set up has worked very well for us for 11 years and has been trouble free apart from having to top up the Varta’s 2-3 times a year.

 

I have studied on the internet and also on this Forum as much as possible and have, more or less decided, to replace both of the Varta batteries with 2 x Yuasa L36-EFB’s. The Morningstar regulator is fully programmable and I believe I need to change the float voltage from its existing 13.7v to something else. The mains charger floats at 13.6 but I cannot change that value. Can anyone tell me the recommended absorption and float voltage for the L36-EFB ? I cannot find it mentioned anywhere on the Yuasa website. Also I note that charging two batteries in parallel is not recommended (even wired in the best manner). I don’t see an easy way of arranging to charge them individually, or am I missing something.

 

Simultaneously I want to replace the Ford Silver Calcium Battery as it is also 11 years old. Does anyone have any experience of replacing this type of battery on a similar vehicle and able to recommend a good type and model please.

 

So to sum up my questions are:-

 

1 Are the Yuasa L36-EFB batteries suitable for the Ford charging system as well as the mains charger and my Morningstar solar controller ?

2 What Absorption and float voltage should I set the Morningstar regulator to deliver ?

 

3 Is there an easy way to set up the two Yuasa batteries to charge individually ?

 

4 What is the best current battery to replace the original Ford Silver Calcium starter battery ?

 

 

Thanks to Allan I am already aware of the dangers of overcharging by way of solar controllers starting a whole new charge cycle every day at sun up and have made provision for this, when laid up, by setting up timers to disconnect the panels anything from a day to a fortnight or more.

 

Thanks in advance for any guidance.

 

Peter

 

[aandncaravan]

dipsticks - 2018-12-04 7:58 PM

 

This thread seems ideal place for my questions and hopefully Allan or anyone else might be able to help me.

 

I have a 2007 Mk 7 2.4 TDI Ford Transit based camper van that was delivered by Ford with two batteries under the drivers seat. One is a Ford Silver Calcium Battery which seems to be the Starter Battery and also a Varta Hobby Battery 952 052 000 which seems to be part of the vehicle electrics when the engine is running only. Functions seem to be controlled by a bi-stable relay in the seat base box. I think the engine alternator charging is referred to as ‘smart charging’

 

Also I note that charging two batteries in parallel is not recommended (even wired in the best manner). I don’t see an easy way of arranging to charge them individually, or am I missing something.

 

Simultaneously I want to replace the Ford Silver Calcium Battery as it is also 11 years old. Does anyone have any experience of replacing this type of battery on a similar vehicle and able to recommend a good type and model please.

 

So to sum up my questions are:-

 

1 Are the Yuasa L36-EFB batteries suitable for the Ford charging system as well as the mains charger and my Morningstar solar controller ?

2 What Absorption and float voltage should I set the Morningstar regulator to deliver ?

 

3 Is there an easy way to set up the two Yuasa batteries to charge individually ?

 

4 What is the best current battery to replace the original Ford Silver Calcium starter battery ?

 

 

Thanks to Allan I am already aware of the dangers of overcharging by way of solar controllers starting a whole new charge cycle every day at sun up and have made provision for this, when laid up, by setting up timers to disconnect the panels anything from a day to a fortnight or more.

 

Thanks in advance for any guidance.

 

Peter

 

 

 

 

1. Yes, perfect technically, but I don't recognise the Hobby battery so not sure of it's physical size. You may struggle to get a L36 in there?. In the past we have mostly, with some exceptions as there are variations, found two Varta LFD75 sized batteries under the seat.

 

2. See the Alpha batteries web site, they are including information, like battery charging voltages, that even the manufacturers don't publish, see : https://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/12v-yuasa-100ah-efb-leisure-battery-l36-efb/

 

3. Not sure why you think you need to, they will charge fine joined up, so long as the wiring is set up ok.

 

4.The replacement we use for the Ford Starter battery is the Varta LFD75. It is a Silver battery so copes with the Alternators higher charge rate, if it wasn't disabled by the converter. It is also more powerful and better in almost every area plus cheaper.

 

 

[weldted]

Having fitted two new Yuasa L36-EFB batteries prior to leaving for France, am a bit concerned having run them through a few cycles to work them up all seemed ok. Having been parked up for two days with a fair bit of tv charging iPhone and pad, very little help from solar I noticed today although the Voltronic computer said I was down to 79% the voltage was 12.1. As we were not wishing to move and on our own I ran my Honda eu10i to charge the batteries through my Victron Bluetooth 30 amp charger. After two hours they were still taking 23 amps absorption charge and it was another hour before the charge fell below 20 amps.

I would have thought at 79% of 200 amps the voltage would have been higher. When parking up the batteries were at 100% having used my system of charging as previously posted.

[RMP]

Thank you, AandN, for your wise words. As it happens, my Hymer DOES have a vent pipe installed on its current Varta LF95 AGM battery. On that basis and from what you say, it looks like the Yuasa is the way ahead. I will make a New Years resolution to ensure the leisure battery has a charge every month. Additionally, I will probably look to buy a CTEK MXS5 charger to do this with, unless you think I am go over the top?

[dipsticks]

Thank you Allan, the Varta 957 052 000 are marked as Semi Traction Batteries and 353x175x190 the same as the Yuasa L36-EFB so should be OK for fitting.

 

I asked about charging the two batteries in parallel because I read on the Yuasa website under charging:-

 

"We do not recommend charging batteries in parallel because it is not possible to control the amount of current passing through each battery"

 

I think I’ll go for the Varta LFD75 for the starter battery then, I don’t imagine the converter would have disabled the alternator higher charge rate but I will check with them. (I think I see it showing a charge of 14.8v when the engine is running) Now I’m wondering if the Yuasa L36-EFB will be happy with the higher charge rate alternator as I’m sure they will be getting same voltage as the starter battery when driving.

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Dipstick’s Ford Transit ‘twin battery’ arrangement was discussed (with photos) in this 2017 forum thread

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Battery-advice-again-/46040/

 

The original Motorcraft-branded starter-battery of my 2005 Ford Transit Mk 6 was housed under the driver’s seat and had dimensions of

 

Length - 315 mm

Width - 175 mm

Height - 175 mm.

 

Because of the 175mm height (and the Ford-provided steel strap that secured the battery in place) when I replaced the original battery I fitted a Varta 85Ah Silver Dynamic battery that had like-for-like dimensions.

 

All Varta LFD batteries have a height of 190mm, but I don’t know if that will matter for dipstick’s battery installation.

 

The Varta Hobby 952 052 000 battery was commented on in this 2015 forum thread (Page 2)

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/battery-charge-question-pleease/36938/31/

[aandncaravan]

Dipsticks, It is fact that you can't control charging of two paralleled batteries, but by buying a matched pair of the same age, size, make, technology etc, you shouldn't need that control. They will look after themselves. Only if there is poor wiring or mismatched batteries will the charging be different between the two batteries. When batteries are 'tripled' or in fours then it becomes more difficult to ensure the charger feeds the batteries equally, but in most instances of quad batteries the charger will be too weak to matter.

 

 

Although your Ford Transit Alternator may put out over 15v, if the Smart Alternator of a standard Transit hasn't been disabled for a MH conversion, it is likely that the voltage actually reaching the Habitation area batteries is in the mid 14's so won't be harmful to the Yuasa L36-EFB.

In addition, because of it's trechnology, there will be some leeway in the charging voltage that the L36-EFB will happily accept.

 

So I wouldn't expect it to be an issue, unless the voltage at the habitation battery, with the engine running and the Fridge on 12v, is over about 14.7v.

 

I bet you will be delighted not to have to top up the fluid on these new batteries?

 

 

 

[aandncaravan]

weldted - 2018-12-04 10:29 PM

 

Having fitted two new Yuasa L36-EFB batteries prior to leaving for France, am a bit concerned having run them through a few cycles to work them up all seemed ok. Having been parked up for two days with a fair bit of tv charging iPhone and pad, very little help from solar I noticed today although the Voltronic computer said I was down to 79% the voltage was 12.1. As we were not wishing to move and on our own I ran my Honda eu10i to charge the batteries through my Victron Bluetooth 30 amp charger. After two hours they were still taking 23 amps absorption charge and it was another hour before the charge fell below 20 amps.

I would have thought at 79% of 200 amps the voltage would have been higher. When parking up the batteries were at 100% having used my system of charging as previously posted.

 

Weldted, I think there is something wrong with the Votronic display units calculations?

 

If you charged two batteries at an average 20amps for 3 hours, then they must have been heavily discharged to take that sort of current, possible as low as 40- 50% DOD? Especially if you take into account the newness of the battery.

That would tie in with the SOC voltage which was probably still under some minor load, so not a true SOC. Remember the SOC is read with the battery open circuit, with not even the small load of the Power controller/Display.

 

It can take 60 charge/discharge cycles for some batteries to reach maximum capacity,

 

If you look at the manufacturers graph below of the Hankook DC31, it starts off at 80% capacity (even when fully charged for days) and reaches 100% at around 50 cycles, eventually reaching 104% after about 60 cycles, it then quickly drops back down to 80% by about 170 cycles.

 

 

I would expect the L36-EFB to reach full capacity sooner, but you are still talking about a lot of cycles.

 

So if your are starting at 80% SOC and draw out about 40Ah from each battery and the battery is under even a small load, then that would tie in with the voltage you were seeing.

 

If it was me I would trust the SOC more than the Votronic display.

 

 

[aandncaravan]

RMP - 2018-12-04 11:55 PM

 

Thank you, AandN, for your wise words.

I will make a New Years resolution to ensure the leisure battery has a charge every month. Additionally, I will probably look to buy a CTEK MXS5 charger to do this with, unless you think I am go over the top?

 

 

RMP, if you buy a CTEK I will never talk to you again :-)

 

A CTEK MXS5 is a weedy 5 amp (peak) charger that will charge up a Car starter to 'full' power because you only need a Car battery to be at about 70% 'full' to start the engine.

 

The industry 'golden rule' is that a charger will be capable of charging batteries up to 10 times it's output converted to Ah. So a 5amp x 10 charger has a limit of a 50Ah battery, IF you want it to get fully, as in 100%, charged.

 

On a big 100Ah battery, you risk used batteries not reaching full charge, so becoming prone to Sulphation.

 

In a marine magazine charger 'shoot-out', a MXS 7.0 couldn't get the 100Ah test battery beyond 80% capacity. You can imagine how well they will look after a 2 x 100Ah battery bank with a 50 - 70Ah industry rating.

 

If you look at the manual for a CTEK XS7 the chart shows it takes 12 hours to get a 100Ah battery to 80% charged, not 100%. Don't you think that is strange, when the info most people want is how long it takes to get a battery fully charged to 100%? .

 

Either it takes forever to get to 100%, or never gets there at all.

Some years ago we tested an XS7 on a battery bank that was good, but not new, and after a week of bringing it up from 50%DOD the batteries still weren't above 85%.

 

 

While they are described as Smart chargers, that is in a pure automotive application, not Leisure.

As a motorhome charger they are pretty dumb.

 

Use the motorhome in built charger, but not on permanent charge.

 

 

 

[Mickt]

Out of interest Alan what the charge rate of my Nordellettronica T43

[weldted]

Many thanks Allan, we have been touring around a bit and up till we stopped for two days using our setup the batteries have been fully charged by the time we stopped each day. When I say fully charged the charge amps shown whilst the inverter is still on is only 2/3 amps. On average each day before setting off the computer shows between 83/95% capacity remaining in the batteries. Starting up then turning inverter on will show around 27/28 amp nett going into the batteries with the fridge on 240. This charging rate falls quite quickly to the low 20s and within two hours normaly it is down to below 5 amps and computer shows 98/100% of capacity. It was just the amount it had gone down and the voltage at 12.1 where normaly it's 12.4 to 12.5. The other thing I have noticed is the solar seems to produce less charge to the batteries with the Voltronic 350 Mppt than my old Solar boost 2000. Whilst I am aware it is December I had the previous controller charging two Exide 115 amp batteries for over five years and away at the same time of year.

[artheytrate]

Hello Alan, I have sent an Email to your website but I will put my question on here also,

I know about the failure rate of AGM batteries and on another forum someone else’s recently failed.

I have a Globecar Campscout fitted with 2 Varta 95 AH AGM batteries now 20 month old, 200 watt of solar,a LRM1218 regulator an EBL 119 charger set at AGM.

What batteries should I replace my AGMs with and what setting on my EBL and LRM would you suggest.

 

I have a Thetford compressor fridge, and run a CPAP breathing machine through the night, also the usual water pump, tv etc.

 

Thanks once again Alan for all the help you give.

 

Kind regards.

John.

[aandncaravan]

Welted, bear in mind your battery bank is 30Ah down on last year, 2 x 100Ah versus 2 x 115Ah.

It is additionally down about 40Ah because the batteries are so new and still reaching full capacity.

That is a 70Ah difference between last year and this. That is going to make any comparisons difficult.

 

If you are using power at the rate you did last year, then I am guessing there will be quite an anomaly?

 

 

 

 

 

.

 

 

 

.

 

[aandncaravan]

artheytrate - 2018-12-05 11:59 PM

 

Hello Alan, I have sent an Email to your website but I will put my question on here also,

I know about the failure rate of AGM batteries and on another forum someone else’s recently failed.

I have a Globecar Campscout fitted with 2 Varta 95 AH AGM batteries now 20 month old, 200 watt of solar,a LRM1218 regulator an EBL 119 charger set at AGM.

What batteries should I replace my AGMs with and what setting on my EBL and LRM would you suggest.

 

I have a Thetford compressor fridge, and run a CPAP breathing machine through the night, also the usual water pump, tv etc.

 

Thanks once again Alan for all the help you give.

 

Kind regards.

John.

 

 

John, Your set-up and pattern of use is unusually heavy of 12v power.

A CPAP unit on it's own can make quite a draw overnight but add in the very heavy draw of a compressor Fridge and I would guess the total draw in Summer will be over 45Ah a day, obviously more in Winter because of the heating.

 

Therefore this advice is going to be specific to you.

 

Go for 100Ah Yuasa L36-EFB's.

 

Because you are using so much 12v power I would suggest you use the AGM setting for the EBL 119. This will charge the batteries at 14.7v, but will only do so while you are using the vehicle as I am guessing that is the only time you would be on EHU?

Although the charge voltage is higher than a Yuasa's 14.4v requirement, you will be using the vehicles 12v while charging is taking place, such as the the heavy draw of the compressor Fridge. So that significant power draw will nullify the effect of the small 'over charge'

 

The advantage is that your battery will charge more quickly and crucially, more fully.

 

 

If it was me in your situation I would also leave the MPPT Solar charger on it's AGM setting for exactly the same reason as it will make the most of every bit of Sun.

The 14.7v of the MPPT may actually be 'dragged down' by the Compressor load, so in reality may only turn out to be about 14.5v at the habitation batteries?

 

 

I would isolate the Solar when the vehicle isn't being used and just connect it for a couple of days every 2 - 3 weeks.

You may still experience slight life degradation of the battery by following this advice, but I would expect it to be small, especially as you are 12v savvy and know how to manage the charging.

 

 

At least give it a try, monitoring the real charging voltages as opposed to the theory that the units will output. Even the best chargers have a tolerance of a few percent, many of the BCA and some Sargent units don't actually reach the target voltage. The Sargent 151 is often 0.2 - 0.3 volt down on the specifications 13.8v, putting out nearer to 13.5v

 

 

 

Someone we know uses the Sun during the day to freeze Ice packs in the freezer, and then puts these Ice packs on the Fridge top shelf to keep the Fridge cool overnight when the thermostat is on a 'warmer' setting.

 

 

Also consider fitting a £6 Wattmeter to the battery and another to the LRM 1218 habitation battery output so you will be able to see the power being drawn (Ah, watts, amps and the voltage) and the power being harvested by the Solar.

That will also give you lots of information plus the value of the different charging strategies. See the Solar power pages : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/solar-power.php

 

The Wattmeter is very easy to install to the battery, two wires in and two out.

 

Try and keep the Yuasa L36-EFB voltage above 50% DOD, about 12.2v.

On the chart below Yuasa have told us it has a voltage range is slightly better than the CX & YUMicron column with a fully charged voltage, unloaded/open circuit SOC, of about 12.8v

 

But expect it to take a few charge/discharge cycles to deliver it's best, remember a new 100Ah battery can be 20Ah down on it's rating, which in your case will make a big difference this time of year as you will only be able to draw 30Ah before hitting 50% DOD per battery.

Initially you may find you can't even manage for more than a day without EHU but that will quickly improve as you use the battery.

[artheytrate]

Once again Alan thank you so much your advice is much appreciated.

 

John.

[aandncaravan]

Mickt - 2018-12-05 10:24 PM

 

Out of interest Alan what is the charge rate of my Nordellettronica T43

 

 

The T43 is quite an early unit, I think the last one we repaired had a charge rate of 14.4/13.8v?

 

 

 

[Mickt]

Thanks for your reply, you are correct in saying an early unit,it is original from 2003 but still seems to work ok.

[aandncaravan]

There have been a couple of references to prematurely failed AGM batteries in this thread and this afternoon Tony V. writes :

 

"Firstly, great web site - if only I had read this before buying my second AGM battery only for it to fail 12 months later!

I think now I should look at the Varta/Bosch or Yuasa options instead.

However, can I mix batteries? If my vehicle Starter battery is an AGM, can I fit a EFB in the back? My charger is a Nordelettronica NE237.

Thank you

T. V".

 

It seems the Varta LA95's that were used by Hymer to replace the Banner Running Bull AGM's, are lasting only slightly better. More and more premature failures being reported.

 

 

Also growing reports of premature failure on the relatively new rollout of Yuasa AGM batteries being used by Swift..