Lithium leisure batteries.

[curlygriff]

Hi guys been thinking about changing my Lead acid batteries ( 2x110ah) for a150ah Lithium with a Votronic B/B charger any one out there with this type of system, all for and against these batteries welcome, already have a Sterling 1800 watt inverter on board and 2 x 75 amp solar panels.

 

Costs not necessary to mention as I have some cash for this project, if I decide to go ahead, any one with some experience of Lithium especially life off grid which we try to do much of our travels.

Hope to ditch my Honda 1000 generator etc.

 

[spirou]

Probably not 75A solar panels, if that were the case you definitely wouldn't need a generator :-D

 

My issue with lithium (any chemistry variant) is, besides the obvious insane cost, the inability to charge when the battery is below freezing (it will destroy them very fast and could also ignite, depending on specifics). Also problematic is quite rapid degradation at relatively typical summer temperatures. Taking it all together, I don't see how a potentially 3x longer lifetime (realistic estimate) and some other benefits like weight and (dis)charge characteristics, can be justified by a 5-10 times the price. Unless of course, the few benefits really mean that much to you.

[Keithl]

curlygriff - 2019-10-02 4:36 PM

 

... already have ... 2 x 75 amp solar panels.

 

spirou - 2019-10-02 7:18 PM

 

Probably not 75A solar panels, if that were the case you definitely wouldn't need a generator :-D

 

I think you meant 2 x 75 Watt solar panels, which at absolute best would yield around 6 Amps each.

 

I doubt you have sufficient ability to recharge Lithium so premature failure would be an almost certainty!

 

Keith.

[weldted]

I would recommend you speak to Tom Donovan at Mullacott Motorhome service. 01271 863066. Very knowledgable and he has designed and installed some really clever systems. I have seen the standard of work and am most impressed. I had a LPG tank fitted by them really neat job.

[Derek Uzzell]

There has been a fair amount of forum discussion about lithium batteries.

 

The late-Allen Evan’s website has a section on them

 

http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/lithium-batteries.php

[NickVanBitz]

Lithium is indeed a good source of power, but it is one where time must be taken when installing it and making sure that you have the correct charge regimes in place as they are NOT a direct replacement to your existing units.

So far , the feedback we are getting from our customers has been great, where they are heavy users off grid. As pointed out, care must be taken where they are installed to prevent them dropping under 5 deg when you are charging them (please bear in mind at low temperatures, some Li will still operate so if fitted internally and the heater is warming the inside of the van, temperature will be at safe levels to charge), but if you use the right product with a good BMS system, the Lithium can be recovered from low temps slowly and safely.

Sadly however the market has been flooded with knock-off Lithium from China, so caution to those whom are looking into the thought of Li in their M/Homes.

 

It is important to have these installed correctly, as they can and will cause damage to your alternator and wiring if they have not had the correct protocols put in place. So far we have had to rectify about 7 installations carried out either by themselves or companies that just don't understand lithium, where incorrect/no DC-DC charging and lack of sufficient cable has caused damage. This video can explain the importance of regulating the input to the Li, which a DC-DC charger can rectify:

 

All that aside, for "off Grid" durability without compromising payload, Lithium is the way to go. However I must stress some key points to consider when choosing your Li:

Firstly make sure that if you buy a Li Battery with a Built-in BMS, I would advise to make sure it is E Marked for Automotive use. Although it is a very very grey area as to the importance of this mark, I would be happier knowing that the Li has been tested under automotive application. Currently Victron and Sterling Power carries such a mark.

If using Inverters for heavy duty discharge, check the maximum current discharge allowed before the BMS shuts the battery down. Some Li manufacturers have a restriction on the constant amps discharge, so if you are going for the budget end of Li, you may have to double up the batteries to cope with the heavy discharge when using the inverter to say boil a kettle or using a Microwave etc.

Make sure that your solar regulator, mains charger and DC-DC charger are correct for use. Check both the Bulk and Maintenance charge voltages and their charge profiles so they match the Lithium specifications.

Hymer have taken these steps when fitting their optional Lithium packs to their motorhomes, but I would like to point out that this is an expensive way of fitting Lithium to the motorhome:

https://www.hymer.com/en/models/technology-plus/hymer-smart-battery-system.html

 

As for fire risk, well this is down to the type of Lithium installed. Most Leisure industry Lithium is LiFEPO4, which is very safe to use and doesn't carry the same fire hazards as our friends at a well known car company, phone company and air liner. This also brings me to the point of testing, which is why we've always recommended known brands that have gone to the lengths of testing them including the grey area of E marking for road use. There is also the point that there are other product in the motorhome that carries a greater risk of fire, including conventional batteries, Gas and other fuel sources.

 

Yes you can argue (and a fair few will i'm sure will) the cost of the Li to be a deciding factor, but when you compare the amount of cycles some of the Li can do in it's lifetime compared to standard construction batteries, you can see that you would have done a fair few conventional battery changes in the time an Li would be at the end of it's service life. A good quality Li can also be punished and rapid charged a lot quicker than conventional leisure battery, so it's a durable and stable platform for "Off Grid" use. Here's a video that can explain the differences of Li to conventional:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIVBpSs2ma0.

 

I know the Lithium argument will go on and on and on, but I personally think it's the way to go.

 

[arthur49]

Really interesting Nick, thank you. Having digested the videos and read the text, I have come to the following conclusions re lithium in m/h:

 

1. its still a 'dark art'

 

2. get installation wrong and it could be a very expensive mistake

 

3. retro fitting is unwise without expert installation including additional gizmo(s), all leading to a far greater cost than simply an already expensive lithium battery + BMS

 

4. the late sorely missed Allan Evans' advice/opinion remains valid

[curlygriff]

Hi everyone thanks fior the replies all points taken on board, what I should have mentioned is that if I decide to go ahead it will be supplied and installed by a very reputable dealer which you have all heard of and that is Roadpro.

After visiting them I am more than confident that Lithium is the way to go, so will let you know what the outcome is in the not to distant future.

Again thanks for your comments.

Curlygriff

[curlygriff]

Hi Weldted I did contact Tom Donovan of Mullacott Motorhome and had a very interesting and knowledgable chat, he agreed with what I was thinking of doing was A OK, as the Lithium manufacturer he uses do not make a 150ah and as long as my units were installed by a professional company didn’t foresee any problems, but only time will tell if I go ahead.

Will be going to the NEC next week to talk to the supplier and will decide after I get more info from them where I go.

 

[weldted]

Hi Curlygriff, I am hoping to go down the route of 200 amps of Li an inverter charger and 400 watts of Solar. Tom showed me a setup he had just installed in a panel van. Very cleverly done. He can modify the van to ensure the charging requirements are correct to make the most of the system.

[Alanb]

weldted - 2019-10-12 2:34 AM

 

Hi Curlygriff, I am hoping to go down the route of 200 amps of Li an inverter charger and 400 watts of Solar. Tom showed me a setup he had just installed in a panel van. Very cleverly done. He can modify the van to ensure the charging requirements are correct to make the most of the system.

 

Weldted,

 

I suggest that you meant 200 Ah (Ampere hours).

 

Alan

[weldted]

Seen many posts where the stated capacity of a battery is shortened to amps as in 100 amp her battery so your are correct in its 200 amp hrs.

[colin]

Phil has made an interesting video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VAG4eGQUiU

[spirou]

weldted - 2019-10-12 10:28 AM

 

Seen many posts where the stated capacity of a battery is shortened to amps as in 100 amp her battery so your are correct in its 200 amp hrs.

 

Those lazy americans again :D

[fjmike]

colin - 2019-10-12 9:36 AM

 

Phil has made an interesting video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VAG4eGQUiU

I only got a little into this video before I twigged that the guy knows nothing as he was quoting NCC rating on batteries which we all know is a big rig. He also mentioned that Banner batteries are a popular fit on motorhomes, the guy is very uninformed

[Stuwsmith]

fjmike - 2019-10-12 4:35 PM

colin - 2019-10-12 9:36 AMPhil has made an interesting video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VAG4eGQUiU

I only got a little into this video before I twigged that the guy knows nothing as he was quoting NCC rating on batteries which we all know is a big rig. He also mentioned that Banner batteries are a popular fit on motorhomes, the guy is very uninformed

 

 

Well fjmike I think your comment is both unhelpful and unkind.  Everybody might not have your expertise in the field of batteries but "Phil" has obviously put a lot of effort into producing a video on the subject presumably based on practical experience he has had with the batteries in question. Perhaps you can share your expertise and correct all misinformation Phil put out?

[colin]

fjmike - 2019-10-12 4:35 PM

 

colin - 2019-10-12 9:36 AM

 

Phil has made an interesting video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VAG4eGQUiU

I only got a little into this video before I twigged that the guy knows nothing as he was quoting NCC rating on batteries which we all know is a big rig. He also mentioned that Banner batteries are a popular fit on motorhomes, the guy is very uninformed

 

Banner are a very popular battery in motorhomes, I've just changed the 8y.o. one in our van. The battery he has on the table is the one that Allan says is one of the so so ones that it is ok to fit in a motorhome. He also goes on to mention other makes such as Varta (which I've just fitted). Using the NCC rating may well be giving the benefit of doubt to the Banner, but one of Allans favourite battery suppliers also give that battery a decent rating.

[fjmike]

Stuwsmith - 2019-10-12 7:01 PM

 

fjmike - 2019-10-12 4:35 PM

colin - 2019-10-12 9:36 AMPhil has made an interesting video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VAG4eGQUiU

I only got a little into this video before I twigged that the guy knows nothing as he was quoting NCC rating on batteries which we all know is a big rig. He also mentioned that Banner batteries are a popular fit on motorhomes, the guy is very uninformed

 

 

Well fjmike I think your comment is both unhelpful and unkind.  Everybody might not have your expertise in the field of batteries but "Phil" has obviously put a lot of effort into producing a video on the subject presumably based on practical experience he has had with the batteries in question. Perhaps you can share your expertise and correct all misinformation Phil put out?

No expertise on my part, just have read most of Allans ( AandN caravans) website and posts. Sorry if my post offends but if anyone goes to the trouble of making a video, it would be expected for them to do their homework. But there again there are plenty of videos on YouTube saying how to wash your motorhome ( something I am qualified in) and they are complete load of town. So perhaps it's just YouTube

[plwsm2000]

fjmike - 2019-10-12 8:01 PM

 

Stuwsmith - 2019-10-12 7:01 PM

 

fjmike - 2019-10-12 4:35 PM

colin - 2019-10-12 9:36 AMPhil has made an interesting video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VAG4eGQUiU

I only got a little into this video before I twigged that the guy knows nothing as he was quoting NCC rating on batteries which we all know is a big rig. He also mentioned that Banner batteries are a popular fit on motorhomes, the guy is very uninformed

 

 

Well fjmike I think your comment is both unhelpful and unkind.  Everybody might not have your expertise in the field of batteries but "Phil" has obviously put a lot of effort into producing a video on the subject presumably based on practical experience he has had with the batteries in question. Perhaps you can share your expertise and correct all misinformation Phil put out?

No expertise on my part, just have read most of Allans ( AandN caravans) website and posts. Sorry if my post offends but if anyone goes to the trouble of making a video, it would be expected for them to do their homework. But there again there are plenty of videos on YouTube saying how to wash your motorhome ( something I am qualified in) and they are complete load of town. So perhaps it's just YouTube

 

I didn't bother to watch the whole video but he did made a few statement that I didn't agree with -

 

1) He correctly pointed out that Lithiums cannot be charged at a high rate below 0 deg C but he also said that charging lead acids below 0 will damage them. In fact, lead acids can be charged down to -20degC (albeit at 0.1C rate) and even lower depending on their state of charge.

 

2) He said that the charge efficiency of lead acids are around 75-80%. They are more like 95% (in most cases)

 

3) He said that the 100Ah Lithium is safe enough even to carry on a plane. Even if you wanted to do this, it is against the IATA (International Air Transport Association) rules for Dangerous goods [url=] https://www.iata.org/whatwedo/cargo/dgr/Documents/passenger-lithium-battery.pdf [/url]. This battery has a 1200Wh rating that is somewhat greater than the 100Wh limit for Lithium batteries. Unfortunately the IATA does not distinguish between the various types of lithium chemistry.

 

I don't think anyone would dispute the many benefits of Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries but I thought he over-sold the Lithiums a bit.

[curlygriff]

Hi Weldted I didn’t decide on 2x100ahr as I wanted to create a bit more room/space so plumped for a one 150ahr and a little lighter than 2x100 will also stick with the Votronic B2B and existing 1800 watt inverter.

Hope all goes well with your new setup.

 

Oct 16th @ 17.03pm

[weldted]

Just done 85 nights in France, no ehu needed. Finally settled on700 watts of solar a Victron 12/2000/80 inverter charger and 2 x100 amp Transporter batteries. Admittedly the weather has been great only 2 days of rain, but temperature up to 38c. This set up allowed me to run the Habitation roof air-con. During the day I could run it for 4 hours set at 20c and was able to run it for 1 hour before going to bed to cool the area. We had the roof air fitted in the rear bedroom rooof light as they are quite noisy in operation, during the day just direct the vents forward and at night closed off the rear bedroom door and it quickly cools the room down.Got some strange looks on aires with no EHU and one or two motorhomers asked how I was able to do so.