Fiat Ducato Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 Hi Allan Happy New Year to you. Recently been looking on your website at all the advice that you give on Leisure batteries and the CBE range of 12v distribution panels and chargers, for people doing their own self-builds. And I can see from your advice that you rate the Bosch L and the Varta LFD batteries. Now after doing a lot of research as I am in need of a new leisure battery, and with so much choice out there. I am looking to upgrade my old and almost coputt 85A leisure battery. And was thinking of going for more power to say a 135A leisure battery. I have been looking at the Varta LFD 90 battery and the cheapest that I can find it is for £98.99 which is a very good price. But looking at the performance details they all show only 200 cycles at 50% DOD. As you know Allan I always respect and appreciate your advice, but I'm a little confused as, as you are probably aware the NCC do a rating on leisure batteries according to their performance, life span etc and rate them either A, B or C category. And the Varta is not listed at all and the Bosch is Cat C, there are lots of the Banner batteries that everyone keeps shouting on about. There are Lucas and Numax ones on there, even Yuasa battteries on the list. The Exide range seems to dominate the Cat A section. I was looking to buy a Hankook 135A Ultra Deep Cycle that claims to have over 550 Cycles or one of the Numax 110A XV31MF model for £88.75 with 550 cycles. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12V-105AH-Numax-DC31MF-Deep-Cycle-Leisure-Marine-Battery-Motorhome-Caravan-Boat/201710212651?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649 Just confused to why you don't rate these ones if they are rated as Cat B by the NCC? Also done plenty of research on the CBE 210 kits. for around £379 price mark but found this kit which is by made Nordelettronica which is the manufacturer of my current 12v system which is very old, over 20 years old and starting to fail. Seems a very good price and come with a 21A multi stage battery charger. All for £295 delivered. Here is the link, could you take a look and tell me what you think please. http://www.deltaconversions.com/power-conversion-kit.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 The NCC scheme claims to test a lot of batteries and provides lots of 'figures'' of those tests, yet it doesn't publish the full results or even state the name of the company carrying out those tests. Something I find unusual in these days of openness and clarity. It doesn't even state what charger was used in the tests, how long the battery was charged for, at what voltage the charging took place, how the battery performed at 80% Depth Of Discharge (DOD), 50% DOD, 25% DOD, etc. How a battery is charged just prior to a test can change the results dramatically. For example, it is rumoured that some manufacturers achieve a higher artificial capacity than reality by pre charging the battery at 16v. This will ultimately shorten a batteries life, but make it perform exceptionally well in a laboratory test. Charging a battery at lower than normal currents can also extend battery life. What currents were used by the NCC testers for each individual battery? The NCC don't even mention that certain specialist chargers will be required for some batteries. They are recommending certain batteries for Caravans, like AGM technology, even though not one Caravan upto the end of 2017 has a Battery charger capable of maintaining those batteries properly. I find it strange that the NCC test results mirror almost exactly the figures the manufacturers publish, when all previous 'real' battery tests I have seen there are at least some differences? It is almost as though the NCC just publish the manufacturers figures without any test of their own. Until the NCC start being more open about the testing process, if there is one at all, I will continue to be suspicious of their Battery expertise. As for your comparisons, you are focusing on one single battery quality, it's cycling rate. You seem to be ignoring it's self discharge rate ( how fast the battery discharges when idle), Fluid loss, Capability to perform at optimum capacity right to End Of Life, resistance to hard use, Quality of construction, Resistance to Sulphation/Antimony Poisoning, ability to perform at extremes of temperature, fast charge rate, etc. A laboratory test of a battery, discharging it to 12.2v and then recharging it straightaway, will give a very different result to actual 'Real World' use where internal corrosion will take hold the first time a conventional battery is used. A conventional battery, like the Numax and Hankook will start to degrade the moment they are first used and rested. After 2 years typical use a conventional battery might be down to 60% capacity, whereas a Varta LFD90/Bosch L5 holds it's capacity for longer, because it doesn't suffer the debilitating damage from corrosion. A conventional 100Ah battery down to 60% capacity might still cycle another 100 times, but what use is a cycle of just 10Ah?? Remember that while 60% capacity might still seem a lot, you shouldn't take it below 50%, so you have a useable 10Ah to play with. Varta and Bosch only quote real usable cycles, not fairy tale laboratory values that are of no use to anyone. The Powerframe technology used in the Bosch/Varta range also charges far more quickly than almost all other battery technologies when used in a Motorhome. They have greater temperature tolerance, performing better and for longer at the higher temperatures of Southern Spain, Morocco, zero fluid loss, etc. Most budgets will have very short lives if used in anger in a hot climate. The conventional budget batteries, will lose capacity very quickly, most are expired in less than 2 years in a Motorhome environment. By comparison a quality battery that has high resistance to corrosion and high temperature tolerance, may still be up near 95% capacity. In the real world a Varta LFD 90 (90 Ah battery) will be outperforming a 110Ah budget before 6 months are up, even a shorter time if the Motorhome environment is challenging to the battery. Most Banner batteries we have seen are Antimony based technology, Antimony based batteries suffer from Antimony poisoning (see webpages for an explanation of what this is) as a result they can suffer high fluid loss and premature failure if not used exactly as per the manufacturer instructions, I.e not left on long term EHU on a typical modern multi stage charger. Because real world use is so different to a Laboratory test, you should take with a Pinch of Salt any 'test figures' without knowing more about how the tests were conducted, such as at what temperature, current, voltage, etc. If your only consideration is long life and a high number of charge/discharge cycles the Exide Gel range (ES900?) are hard to beat, but you will have to put up with a slow recharge rate, poor temperature operation, low continuous current draw (never use them on an Inverter), high purchase cost, etc. We have cut open hundreds of different makes and technology batteries, everything from Trojan to Banner. Our advice is based on what was seen inside the batteries we removed. We would not say the Varta LFD90/Bosch L5 Powerframe's are the best Motorhome batteries in the World as they are less than £100 and would never compete with a £300 battery. However, in our opinion no other technology is more appropriate, or performs better, in the varied demands of a Motorhome, than the Powerframe technology range used by Bosch and Varta. As for the Nordelettronica versus CBE argument, we have repaired both systems and stopped supporting CBE because the work we got was so little. It wasn't worth the continued investment in the technology required to support them. On the other hand Nordelettronica electronics provides a continuous supply of work. Make of that what you will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 aandncaravan - 2018-01-03 10:20 AM ...I find it strange that the NCC test results mirror almost exactly the figures the manufacturers publish, when all previous 'real' battery tests I have seen there are at least some differences? It is almost as though the NCC just publish the manufacturers figures without any test of their own. Until the NCC start being more open about the testing process, if there is one at all, I will continue to be suspicious of their Battery expertise... Allan This 2016 Out&AboutLive article https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/motorhomes/articles/practical-advice/choosing-a-ncc-verified-battery says "The NCC scheme requires verifiable data from battery suppliers to support the claimed Ah capacity and life cycle figures.” If that’s correct it would certainly explain why the data in the NCC Verified Leisure Battery Scheme listings may match a battery manufacturer’s figures. I’ve never put much faith in this scheme due (as you rightly highlight) to its opaqueness regarding the manner in which the data are ‘verified’. I just don’t believe that there’s an independent specialist laboratory that has ‘verified’ that (say) a Manbat Numax XDT30MF 115Ah battery has a projected 2000 ‘Life cycles’. I can’t decide if the existence of the NCC scheme makes matters better or worse than before, but if the data in the listings are questionable then any conclusions/decisions based on those data will also be questionable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiat Ducato Posted January 3, 2018 Author Share Posted January 3, 2018 aandncaravan - 2018-01-03 10:20 AM The NCC scheme claims to test a lot of batteries and provides lots of 'figures'' of those tests, yet it doesn't publish the full results or even state the name of the company carrying out those tests. Something I find unusual in these days of openness and clarity. It doesn't even state what charger was used in the tests, how long the battery was charged for, at what voltage the charging took place, how the battery performed at 80% Depth Of Discharge (DOD), 50% DOD, 25% DOD, etc. How a battery is charged just prior to a test can change the results dramatically. For example, it is rumoured that some manufacturers achieve a higher artificial capacity than reality by pre charging the battery at 16v. This will ultimately shorten a batteries life, but make it perform exceptionally well in a laboratory test. Charging a battery at lower than normal currents can also extend battery life. What currents were used by the NCC testers for each individual battery? The NCC don't even mention that certain specialist chargers will be required for some batteries. They are recommending certain batteries for Caravans, like AGM technology, even though not one Caravan upto the end of 2017 has a Battery charger capable of maintaining those batteries properly. I find it strange that the NCC test results mirror almost exactly the figures the manufacturers publish, when all previous 'real' battery tests I have seen there are at least some differences? It is almost as though the NCC just publish the manufacturers figures without any test of their own. Until the NCC start being more open about the testing process, if there is one at all, I will continue to be suspicious of their Battery expertise. As for your comparisons, you are focusing on one single battery quality, it's cycling rate. You seem to be ignoring it's self discharge rate ( how fast the battery discharges when idle), Fluid loss, Capability to perform at optimum capacity right to End Of Life, resistance to hard use, Quality of construction, Resistance to Sulphation/Antimony Poisoning, ability to perform at extremes of temperature, fast charge rate, etc. A laboratory test of a battery, discharging it to 12.2v and then recharging it straightaway, will give a very different result to actual 'Real World' use where internal corrosion will take hold the first time a conventional battery is used. A conventional battery, like the Numax and Hankook will start to degrade the moment they are first used and rested. After 2 years typical use a conventional battery might be down to 60% capacity, whereas a Varta LFD90/Bosch L5 holds it's capacity for longer, because it doesn't suffer the debilitating damage from corrosion. A conventional 100Ah battery down to 60% capacity might still cycle another 100 times, but what use is a cycle of just 10Ah?? Remember that while 60% capacity might still seem a lot, you shouldn't take it below 50%, so you have a useable 10Ah to play with. Varta and Bosch only quote real usable cycles, not fairy tale laboratory values that are of no use to anyone. The Powerframe technology used in the Bosch/Varta range also charges far more quickly than almost all other battery technologies when used in a Motorhome. They have greater temperature tolerance, performing better and for longer at the higher temperatures of Southern Spain, Morocco, zero fluid loss, etc. Most budgets will have very short lives if used in anger in a hot climate. The conventional budget batteries, will lose capacity very quickly, most are expired in less than 2 years in a Motorhome environment. By comparison a quality battery that has high resistance to corrosion and high temperature tolerance, may still be up near 95% capacity. In the real world a Varta LFD 90 (90 Ah battery) will be outperforming a 110Ah budget before 6 months are up, even a shorter time if the Motorhome environment is challenging to the battery. Most Banner batteries we have seen are Antimony based technology, Antimony based batteries suffer from Antimony poisoning (see webpages for an explanation of what this is) as a result they can suffer high fluid loss and premature failure if not used exactly as per the manufacturer instructions, I.e not left on long term EHU on a typical modern multi stage charger. Because real world use is so different to a Laboratory test, you should take with a Pinch of Salt any 'test figures' without knowing more about how the tests were conducted, such as at what temperature, current, voltage, etc. If your only consideration is long life and a high number of charge/discharge cycles the Exide Gel range (ES900?) are hard to beat, but you will have to put up with a slow recharge rate, poor temperature operation, low continuous current draw (never use them on an Inverter), high purchase cost, etc. We have cut open hundreds of different makes and technology batteries, everything from Trojan to Banner. Our advice is based on what was seen inside the batteries we removed. We would not say the Varta LFD90/Bosch L5 Powerframe's are the best Motorhome batteries in the World as they are less than £100 and would never compete with a £300 battery. However, in our opinion no other technology is more appropriate, or performs better, in the varied demands of a Motorhome, than the Powerframe technology range used by Bosch and Varta. As for the Nordelettronica versus CBE argument, we have repaired both systems and stopped supporting CBE because the work we got was so little. It wasn't worth the continued investment in the technology required to support them. On the other hand Nordelettronica electronics provides a continuous supply of work. Make of that what you will. Thank you for your reply and all your points regarding my questions. I have took on board all of the points you raised and shall be reconsidering my choices of leisure battery. Sorry not to sound stupid but are you saying that the CBE are far better quality than the Nordelettronica brand. Wouldn't surprise me one bit as the Nordelettronica NE13GT_CI installed in my motor home as been repaired so many times, I've given up with it now, all the intermittent faults I keep experiencing, no power. Fridge works on 12V sometimes and not others, same with the split charge system, not working at present, 240V battery as packed up. I always like to hear your opinions on matters regarding batteries, 12v/240v power distribution units etc as you repair them for a living, not just a novice or wannabe play around DIYer. And no disrespect to anyone, as there are some very well experience motorhomers on here who do a lot themselves and fully understand the 12v system within a motorhome. I was very impressed by the CBE kits available but was just a little unsure regarding the battery charger as I think you mentioned somewhere once before that in order for a leisure battery to receive a full charge it needs a voltage of around 14.4V. The CBE charger is a switchable charger but charging voltage is only 13.8V . Or have I read that wrong. Also it is not a 3 stage charger like some others. I remember you rated the Sargent 240V battery charger which is also a 3 stage charger, but probably not compatible with the CBE 12v main power distribution unit. Regards Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 If you have an NE13g I would advise caution if you are thinking about installing a bigger battery, as they were designed in an age when only a single battery was typical. A battery bigger than about 90Ah will add stress to the NE13 box risking failures, especially the Alternator charging side. A poor battery will have the same effect. A second or big battery can double the current the box (and connectors/wiring) has to handle from the Alternator. I would suggest that on such an old Electronics system your priority for a battery should be efficiency. A battery that is more efficient will take less power to charge up so that the lightest load is placed on the entire 12v infrastructure. Obviously a battery that is wasting power or self discharging when not being used will place an unnecessary load on the NE13g. Guess which battery is more efficient than almost all others in the upto £150 price bracket? The CBE range is huge. It is at the budget end but well made and designed. Early units can fail if more than one battery is installed, not a fault of the unit, just not designed for more than one big battery, or use with a tired battery, but other than that they are reliable. . The CB516 charger is a strong unit, although only a 16 amp charger it does have multi stage charging at upto 14.4v. The 520 is the uprated 20amp version. Both good units and better than the Sargent 300. I only suggested the Sargent as the requester was after a cheap charger, not the best. The best. IMO, is the Victron Blue Energy range with a special 'Storage' mode charging program.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 Instruction Manual for CB-516 battery-charger on folowing link (copied from Allan’s website) http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/resources/CBE%20516%20and%20510%20charger%20manual.pdf The charging regimen’s four stages are described (in English) on Page 5 of the Manual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiat Ducato Posted January 3, 2018 Author Share Posted January 3, 2018 aandncaravan - 2018-01-03 5:49 PM If you have an NE13g I would advise caution if you are thinking about installing a bigger battery, as they were designed in an age when only a single battery was typical. A battery bigger than about 90Ah will add stress to the NE13 box risking failures, especially the Alternator charging side. A poor battery will have the same effect. A second or big battery can double the current the box (and connectors/wiring) has to handle from the Alternator. I would suggest that on such an old Electronics system your priority for a battery should be efficiency. A battery that is more efficient will take less power to charge up so that the lightest load is placed on the entire 12v infrastructure. Obviously a battery that is wasting power or self discharging when not being used will place an unnecessary load on the NE13g. Guess which battery is more efficient than almost all others in the upto £150 price bracket? The CBE range is huge. It is at the budget end but well made and designed. Early units can fail if more than one battery is installed, not a fault of the unit, just not designed for more than one big battery, or use with a tired battery, but other than that they are reliable. . The CB516 charger is a strong unit, although only a 16 amp charger it does have multi stage charging at upto 14.4v. The 520 is the uprated 20amp version. Both good units and better than the Sargent 300. I only suggested the Sargent as the requester was after a cheap charger, not the best. The best. IMO, is the Victron Blue Energy range with a special 'Storage' mode charging program.. Yes I surely wouldn't use a bigger battery with my current system as it's already pretty much nackered lol. I am thinking of upgrading the whole system inc the main 12v Power distribution box, Control Panel for something a little bit more modern as this too is a Nordelettronica model TE17 probably over 20 years old as well and the 240v battery charger. Will try and get away with my 240V mains consumer unit as it's pretty good and all works fine, although if I buy a complete kit with it included, I might as well change it anyway. That is why I was asking for your opinion on the either the Nordelettronica power conversion kit with the NE196 12v Distribution power unit and the NE274 control panel, along with the NE287 21A Battery charger or the CBE PC210 complete kit. And I believe you have already answered my questtion regarding this. Comes down to money really as the CBE kit is almost £100 more expensive than the Nordelettronica kit. I know you did say that the more newer models of Nordeletrronica are better built and have the stud connectors now to connect the vehicle Battery 12+ and the Leisure Battery 12+ they also appear to include a solar regulator connection. Thinking of selling my van in the summer, but can't sell it the way it is with faulty 12v power unit, almost dead battery and 240v battery charger that doesn't work. I wanted to just change the 12v Power Distribution unit and battery charger on their own really and was impressed with the price for the CBE DS300 12V distribution unit, and the charger, but then my control panel, tank probes etc all won't fit the new unit. So thats's why I've been looking at complete kits. If I was keeping this van for many more years, I would without doubt go for the more expensive CBE complete kit. Regards Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 I didn't say the newer Nordelettronica units were better built, just that they have addressed the susceptibility to damage when a second battery/bigger battery bank is added. You have probably seen the webpage on "Adding a second battery" : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/add-a-second-battery.php where I write - "The susceptibility to greater Alternator charge current damage caused by enlarged battery banks was recognised some time ago by Nordelettronica and later Fuse boards have been modified to include heavy duty 'Stud' connectors rated at 50amps for the connection of the Habitation and Starter battery wiring". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiat Ducato Posted January 3, 2018 Author Share Posted January 3, 2018 aandncaravan - 2018-01-03 9:23 PM I didn't say the newer Nordelettronica units were better built, just that they have addressed the susceptibility to damage when a second battery/bigger battery bank is added. You have probably seen the webpage on "Adding a second battery" : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/add-a-second-battery.php where I write - "The susceptibility to greater Alternator charge current damage caused by enlarged battery banks was recognised some time ago by Nordelettronica and later Fuse boards have been modified to include heavy duty 'Stud' connectors rated at 50amps for the connection of the Habitation and Starter battery wiring". Yes that was it and just read it again, and now concerned as I've just ordered: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6mtr-Split-Charge-Kit-12V-140a-M-Power-Intelligent-VSR-110a-Ready-Made-Leads/261462935370?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649 This is a M-Power 140A Voltage sensing relay pre wired kit with 6m of 16mm2 110A cable to solve my leisure battery not charging at present, due to a faulty connector I think (already been repaired once before) but like you say the connectors are the weak points. Will be wiring directly from starter battery to leisure battery avoiding my current Nordelltronica 12v unit. Also ordered one of these to connect all my appliances to: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12-Way-Blade-Fuse-Box-Bus-Bar-With-Cover-Marine-Kit-Car-Boat-HGV-12V-24V/192217279549?hash=item2cc10aec3d:g:WsQAAOSwKytZJ9gf This will be a temporary measure until I decide which battery and new 12v system to purchase. Was thinking of running a separate relay for my 12v fridge again avoiding going through my current 12v unit. Good or bad idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiat Ducato Posted January 3, 2018 Author Share Posted January 3, 2018 My way of thinking was this will at least get things working as like I said at the moment my vehicle is charging my battery whilst driving, my mains battery charger doesn't work either. Do own a Maypole smart charger which I have been using. My fridge works sometime on 12v and sometimes not a bit like the split charge system, if I wiggle the cables and connectors I can sometimes get it to work, other times not. All my other things like lighting,Awning light, pump, electric flush, truma vent, electric step, boiler etc all work fine. But just not the important things like been able to charge your battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 It isn't the relay I would have bought, see the bottom of the webpage discussed above for the relay we suggest is considered. However, it will do the job, but the fact it is a VSR means it will introduce other complications. I am also 99% sure your issues are down to a battery well past it's best placing major strain on the mains charger and Alternator charging, hence these failing. I would suggest that if you don't replace the battery, your Alternator may be the next to go under, so I would replace the battery before you fix any charging components. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 Fiat Ducato - 2018-01-03 10:08 PM if I wiggle the cables and connectors I can sometimes get it to work, other times not. That suggests a very simple issue to fix if not to locate like a loose or corroded live or earth connection. One tell tale sign is a connector getting hot due to the high resistance caused by a poor contact. My inclination would be to sort this out first as nothing will work properly if it is not connected properly. My other inclination is to agree with Alan, as experience suggests that the fitting of a new battery often cures related issues and if it does not at least you will have the dual satisfaction of knowing what it isn't, as well as knowing you have a reliable battery! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiat Ducato Posted January 4, 2018 Author Share Posted January 4, 2018 Hi thanks guys for all your advice, I have removed my leisure battery from my van and placed it on charge overnight with my smart charger. This morning it is showing charged 100%. I am now going to disconnect the charger and monitor it's discharge rate. I intend to use a set load over a set time. Its a vicious circle my battery might be acting up as it's not getting a proper charge, faulty connectors for the wiring for the split charge set up, means it works sometime but if I drive over a bump it can switch off. The pcb board within the unit as had lots of repairs done to it, including repairing the burnt out hole from the 12v vehicle + cable, with resin and added a trace to another point. Removed the burnt out connector, and soldered in a new one, removed the burnt out appliances connector as was damaged and soldered in a new one, fixed the damaged pad on the fridge pin and pump pin on the pcb board, repaired an earth trace. All which have been done personally by myself, after I took it to a local company who built and repaired PCB boards for a living. They charged my £30 to fit a new connector and when I took it home and inspected it, it was done to a very poor level and loose that I removed it and done it myself. However the problem is with these plastic multi plug connectors which I replaced like for like on the board. They protrude out somewhat from the unit once they are plugged together and with the weight of the 50A 10mm2 Vehicle +, Leisure +, and earth cable, along with the Alternator D+ signal cable on the main power connector. They tend to pull the connector downwards causing the likely loose connections. The middle appliances connector is a Mate-n-Lok connector which are much better quality of connector. Here are a few before and after photo's to show what I was up against. Household 2.5mm twin and earth cable connected for 12v and everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 You have done a really neat job. May I be a bit pedantic and suggest you support all the cables by fixing them to the wall just before they plug into the unit? May I also suggest you leave the battery off charge for at least a week before starting your discharge test? For a gel battery the voltage after a week should still be up near 13v and for a wet battery about 12.6v, any less and I wouldn't bother testing any further. Your discharge test should not take more than 50% of the battery rated capacity, which equates to about 12.5v for a Gel battery and 12.1v for a conventional battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiat Ducato Posted January 8, 2018 Author Share Posted January 8, 2018 Well after fully charging my leisure battery on the 04/01/18 and then left it , it sitting there indoors with nothing connected since. Tested it every day, went from 13.09v to 13.06V, then 13.03V Today it reads 12.90V which is still fully charged. Will leave it to see how long it takes to get down to 12V, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 Are you sure your voltmeter is accurate? Even if your battery were gel type a 12.9V ‘at rest’ charge 5 days post-charging would be high and (in your original posting) you described it as “...my old and almost coputt 85A leisure battery”. There’s little point just leaving the battery sitting there doing nothing. You could wait another couple of days to meet Allan’s advice to delay carrying out a discharge test for at least a week after fully charging the battery, but you do need to carry out a realistic discharge test to confirm how the battery will perform under load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiat Ducato Posted January 9, 2018 Author Share Posted January 9, 2018 Derek Uzzell - 2018-01-09 9:47 AM Are you sure your voltmeter is accurate? Even if your battery were gel type a 12.9V ‘at rest’ charge 5 days post-charging would be high and (in your original posting) you described it as “...my old and almost coputt 85A leisure battery”. There’s little point just leaving the battery sitting there doing nothing. You could wait another couple of days to meet Allan’s advice to delay carrying out a discharge test for at least a week after fully charging the battery, but you do need to carry out a realistic discharge test to confirm how the battery will perform under load. Hi Derek thank you for your reply, yes of course my volt meter is working correctly. And in my original message I said I think my battery is coputt but wasn't sure if it was just a case of a voltage drain or a case of battery not charging from Alternator as faulty unit connector and 240V charger doesn't work either. I have sourced the voltage drain is was the ignition to my truma gas fire. It was my idea to do a discharge test not Allan's idea, but was Allan's idea to wait a week or so to see how quickly the voltage drops. I plan to let it drop to it's safe discharge rate around 12V I believe. Then put it on another charge with my smart charger. And then do a discharge test to test it's AH performance. Fingers crossed ayy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 Please don't discharge it down to 12v, especially if it is a Gel or high technology battery, it will suffer life shortening damage. As I wrote above : "Your discharge test should not take more than 50% of the battery rated capacity, which equates to about 12.5v for a Gel battery and 12.1v for a conventional battery". As Derek says if your battery is up at 13v it must be a Gel, conventional batteries are nearer 12.6 fully charged. See the attached Yuasa supplied battery discharge chart which shows the different Voltage ranges for the different Technologies. Gel and AGM batteries are from the VRLA group, as will be Varta LFD90, etc. all close to 13v. The old fashion technology of your Hankooks and Numaxes will be in the 'conventional' column and fully charged at 12.6v. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiat Ducato Posted January 9, 2018 Author Share Posted January 9, 2018 I know what your both saying and surprised myself but it is 100% not a gel battery, says on the label, lead acid. And can hear the water swishing around when you lift it. Today it is 12.88V. Not sure what exactly is going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiat Ducato Posted January 9, 2018 Author Share Posted January 9, 2018 Here is today's reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 That looks to me like a conventional badged budget from Asia, and would expect it to be 12.6v when fully charged. That indicates a fault in the meter or the battery has some strange issue. The fact it has lost any volts over so short a time suggests it isn't healthy, as a quality, high technology battery will hold it's charge for 3 months plus. Suggest you leave it another week to see where it ends up and then discharge to 0.5v below your meters 'fully charged' result as that should be about 50%. If your meter is over reading and you drop it to an indicated 12.1 (real 11.6v), even if it was good before, it won't be afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiat Ducato Posted January 27, 2018 Author Share Posted January 27, 2018 Hi Allan Just wanted to clear the air and apologize for my rude comments that I made regarding you receiving commission etc for advertising products on your website. It is a bit of a ridiculous claim especially when you help so many people on here for free, not to mention taking time out of your day. I was never implying that you don't know your stuff or you don't do a cracking job of sorting peoples problems with their motorhome, caravan etc 12v systems. I was just trying to work out how you reached your opinions regarding my charger. Was recommended to me on the other forum by many users and claimed that Aplha batteries know their stuff when it comes to batteries and chargers. Cost me quite a bit considering, and can't return it without losing on expenses on courier cost returning it. That with my Truma S3002 Safety Pilot Valve Complete packing in the other day, think I had just had enough and unfortunately took some of that frustration out on you. So I am sorry for that. You do a great job on here and on your website, so keep up the good work. Me for one if I was up that way and had problems with my van wouldn't hesitate to talk it you to sort out. And would recommend you to others to. Which I have done on other forums where your not so well known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 Thank you, apology welcome. We get sent all types and makes of battery chargers, not just Motorhomes, but Marine, Canal Boat, car, etc. We have repaired thousands of many different types, makes, designs, etc. There are few on the market which we have not seen over the last 6 years. I am willing to bet 1p that just by looking at the outside of a charger, we would be able to give a pretty accurate assessment of what we will find inside before we open it. However, in the instance of your charger we have been sent one for repair. It isn't designed for a Motorhome, just as most of the aftermarket ones are not. It will charge Leisure batteries, but that is not the same at all. I am guessing that if you look at the tech spec it will talk about charging the battery 'off' the vehicle as some of the 'features' would be extremely unfriendly to a Motorhome and even a Car. Alpha would not be at the top of my list for batteries or chargers. Someone recently recommended a Chinese Takeaway that opened a couple of months ago nearby, the Top Wok in Rhos on Sea. So I went to it to find that while it was cheap it had a Hygiene rating of just 1 out of 5!! Needless to say I went elsewhere. I am learning that just because someone recommends something, doesn't mean it matches my requirements. Someone once said to me if you go into a Chinese restaurant and Chinese people are eating there, you have found a good restaurant. An adage that applies all over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 Stuart Paul has said he’s sorry and Allan has accepted Paul’s apology. It looks like you and Paul are not destined to be ‘forum buddies’, but could you just let the matter rest, please. Derek Uzzell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiat Ducato Posted January 27, 2018 Author Share Posted January 27, 2018 aandncaravan - 2018-01-27 4:26 PM Thank you, apology welcome. We get sent all types and makes of battery chargers, not just Motorhomes, but Marine, Canal Boat, car, etc. We have repaired thousands of many different types, makes, designs, etc. There are few on the market which we have not seen over the last 6 years. I am willing to bet 1p that just by looking at the outside of a charger, we would be able to give a pretty accurate assessment of what we will find inside before we open it. However, in the instance of your charger we have been sent one for repair. It isn't designed for a Motorhome, just as most of the aftermarket ones are not. It will charge Leisure batteries, but that is not the same at all. I am guessing that if you look at the tech spec it will talk about charging the battery 'off' the vehicle as some of the 'features' would be extremely unfriendly to a Motorhome and even a Car. Alpha would not be at the top of my list for batteries or chargers. Someone recently recommended a Chinese Takeaway that opened a couple of months ago nearby, the Top Wok in Rhos on Sea. So I went to it to find that while it was cheap it had a Hygiene rating of just 1 out of 5!! Needless to say I went elsewhere. I am learning that just because someone recommends something, doesn't mean it matches my requirements. Someone once said to me if you go into a Chinese restaurant and Chinese people are eating there, you have found a good restaurant. An adage that applies all over. Ok Allan, I haven't used it yet as I must admit I was Dubious myself, the guy assured me that this charger is a very good spec and suitable for Leisure batteries. I took it upon myself to ask on the Wildcamping forum to see what peoples views were of Alpha Batteries and in particular if anyone had any experience in using my charger. And got about replies saying very good charger, very good price, good seller etc. Anyway I will start a return on ebay which is where I purchased it from and see if I can return it for a refund. To be honest I'd rather either spend the extra money and get a decent charger or not fit one at all and when I come to sell my Motorhome this year, inform the new seller of the work I have done and let them decide and choose the mains charger they want to fit or rip out all my work and fit a new 12v full kit with new control panel etc, I would fit the CBE kit that you recommended I've done some extensive research on it and it seems a very good buy. I must admit I've also heard really positive feedback regarding the Victron smart blue chargers, people who have fitted them in their vans etc. I've watched the demo video of the charger, read the spec and been a typical bloke who loves gadgets and gizmos. I love the fact that you can connect your phone to this charger and observe and control the settings and see the info etc. Just money for me the cheapest I have found for the 20A IP22 version is £162.00 and £126.45 for the 15A IP65 version both from here: https://www.batterymegastore.co.uk/victron-energy-bpc121531024r.html I also like the CBE 16A charger but cheapest I've found that is £129.99 with £5.95 p&p. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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