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Moving Mains Input position


Guest Graham

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My m/h, and many more, have the Mains Input relatively high up on the wall, usually on the awning side. Is there a technical reason why this is so, I would like to move it completely out of sight,perhaps low down at the rear of outfit. This of course would require heavier and longer cables to cope with current loss. Any one done the same ??
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Guest Dave Newell
Hi graham, What you propose is feasible but what will you do with the remaining hole in your van's bodyside? You shouldn't need to increase the cable size but it might be prudent to move the RCD unit to keep it as close as possible to the inlet point. As you mention "current loss" instead of voltage drop (which, by the way, isn't an issue at 240v AC) I assume you are not an electrician and so you really need to consult a qualified person to carry out this work for you. Regards, D. www.davenewell.co.uk
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Guest Don Madge
Dave wrote "What you propose is feasible but what will you do with the remaining hole in your van's bodyside" Dave You could cover it with a vent suitably modified of course. It should not be a problem for a man of your talents? Regards Don
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As David Newall said Just the fact that you mention "Current Loss" leads me to think that you are not an electrician The current remains constant throughout the cirucuit it is "Voltage Drop" that is the concern The voltage drop is related to the Current flowing and the resistance of the bit of wire and produces heat in WATT's equl to The SQUARE of THE CURRENT FLOW times the VALUE of the RESISTANCE This heat loss will be in an enclosed area (I assume you want the finished job to look tidy) and cannot escape Heat in confined spaces can lead to fires I also agree that the RCD must be moved to near the Electrical input All the electrical work must be carried out so as to conform with the apprporiate electrical regulations _ which very few electricians will be fully aquainted with - unless they work on installations such as caravans/ motor homes They are seperate to those for house/works wiring Also since the beginning of this year there are laws limiting the persons who are authourised to work on major modifications such as these would be. You have to be a "Qualified Person" So any work not carried out by such a person would violate the requirements of your insurance in the case of a fire And what are you going to put into the hole that is left????
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Not so sure about the requirement to keep the RCD close to the input socket. Mine is one side of the van on one wall and the socket on the oposite wall from new (Autotrail). What is important is that the cables between the two are double insulated and well protected mechanically. My understanding about the new legislation is that it does not (yet) apply to mobile homes, just fixed ones. But if you are not entirely confident you must use a qualified electrician. But why move it?
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Guest Derek Uzzell
Graham: I don't think there's any outstanding technical reason why 230v mains input sockets on motorhomes are located where they are. It's usually that the location chosen by the converter is most convenient (for the converter that is, not the motorcaravanner) and isn't in such a daft position that a potential buyer of the vehicle might throw up their hands in horror. Certainly, if the socket is at average chest height, it's easy to connect up and having it on the motorhome's side-wall reduces the chance of road muck getting into it. There's also a sporting chance that, with a highish side-mounted socket, you'll notice you're still hooked up before you drive away! These are things you might want to consider before you opt for a low level, rear, out of sight out of mind connector. I can see where you're coming from regarding awnings as it ought to be better for 230v cables not to be lying around where people are putting chairs, tables and so on. I wondered if there was some sort of national convention where the input socket went or if motorhome designers considered the awning question, but I couldn't decide in either case. My previous RHD UK-built Herald and my current LHD German Hobby both have their RCD unit in a wardrobe on the right side of the motorhome. The Herald had the hook-up socket opposite the 'caravan' entrance door on the right wall of the vehicle, close to the RCD. This makes perfect sense. However, the Hobby also has its socket opposite the entrance door (but on the left wall of the vehicle of course) which consequentially results in much longer and more complex cable-runs inside the 'van. I've no idea whether the Hobby designers deliberately chose the input socket's position to avoid having it beneath an awning or whether they just thought the 230v socket, heater outlet and water filler looked nice grouped together in a straight line! I think it's just as much pot luck with caravans where the 230v socket will be positioned, even though a caravan awning is almost invariably added by owners.
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Regarding RCDs, why do we have those built-in RCDs that require a £70/hr expert if anything goes wrong? Why not just use the plug-in jobs that we use with lawn-mowers - they cost £6 at Homebase, and if it goes wrong you just throw it away and buy a new one. Or is that too easy?
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Bill I used to use one for my garden equipment until I cut completely through the cable on my hedge trimmer. Yes, you've guessed it, it failed to trip the mains! I tested it at work and it worked!! I now don't use it as I don't trust it. Regards Neal
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Guest David Powell
Hello Graham...Many years ago most trailed caravans had the electric hook-up cable plug neatly hidden out off sight underneath the van. Now they are on the side of the vans as are motor homes so that they don't get covered in mud and road muck, and filled with water on wet days, and when going across wet long grass. My towing 'van has it in the battery box, nice and safe locked in, my motor home has it in full view of my off side door mirror so I don't drive away with it still pluged in.
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Clive, from what you say it appears you possibly on your Autotrail have the same potentialy dangerous set up that I had on my Autostratus until I rectified it I too had the inlet one side and the RCD the other side of the vehicle. The problem with this setup only came to light after experiencing a tyre blow out at 70 mph on the M2 whilst heading for Dover this year. On our return and whilst crawling under the van to inspect/ repair the damage from flailing tyre cords, there was a flash of spark and a feeling of a mild electric shock to my temple, not disimilar to but stronger than a static discharge. As I was removing myself from under the van I touched the exhaust with my arm and felt a sort of AC frequency vibration. Testing with a multimeter to a metal ground stake showed there to be around 30vac on the chassis and metal parts, now the previous occurances did NOT make the RCD trip nor the house one. Both subsequently tested and found correct. The cause of the problem was that the burst tyre metal cords had pulverised the bottom of the floor, removing the outer covering and insulation to the inner floor requiring a patch repair and had destroyed the convoluted plastic conduit containing the wiring crossing to the opposite side of the van also damaging the wiring sheathing at the same time, this had allowed moisture to penetrate and giving a path for the 30v to go to earth and subsequently the chassis. I have now moved the RCD to a point right next to the inlet of the mains and replaced the wiring across to where the RCD was sited this will at least ensure that all the van wiring will be covered by the RCD and not leave an approximately 3metre length unprotected.
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The mains wiring in my Autotrail does not go under the floor but up and across the roof within the sandwich construction. I am unlikely to roll my van while its connected to a mains hookup! So I hopefully won,t have such a scenario as you. Why did your tyre burst? How old was it? Were their signs of cracking on the rubber side walls for example?
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I forgot to add that on day 2 of owning our motorhome and with the mains hookup in clear view in the offside mirror I drove away without unplugging. Cost me a new door!
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Guest Brian Kirby
Two points: 1 There is, however, some advantage to the hook up socket being under the awning when it is raining. The awning does to some extent protect the plug/socket from the rain, and it also protects you when you dicconnect and wind up the cable. Not the greatest advantage I'll admit, but better than nowt. 2 I have seen a very neat, right-angled mains hook up plug that lies virtually flat against the 'van side when connected and directs the cable directly downwards rather than sticking out and getting in the way. This was on a Liaka A class. Anyone know where they can be obtained? This arrangement did seem to me to remove most of the irritating obstruction associated with the conventional plug - and still left you in the dry when it rained! Brian
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Guest Derek Uzzell
Ref 2: I believe the right-angled connector is the norm (or at least very common) in Germany with a different socket on the leisure-vehicle to accept it. My Hobby has the socket, but I haven't got the plug! The Hobby's socket will accept an 'ordinary' straight end-of-hook-up-cable connector, but only if the hinged end-flap is removed. This means that the connector can't be locked into the socket. However the socket does contain some sort of locking mechanism inside that's obviously been designed for the right-angled connector. A special right-angled connector is also available in France. This is actually designed for use beneath a caravan awning and has a secondary 230v Schuko socket (with a hinged cover) built into the connector's outside face. I assume this is to allow electric guitars, chandeliers, water features, home cinemas etc. to be powered whilst on site. (As I'm not very familiar with what caravanners get up to beneath their awnings I'm just guessing.)
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Brian & Derek A good electrical trade supplier will have various catalogues showing a vast range of different BS 4343 type connectors. Amongst the large collection should be right-angle ones. Derek, you can't beat playing your electric guitar to the rhythm of the water feature, lit by the outside chandelier, in the balmy mediteranean evenings. Mind you, you 'ave to knock it on the 'ead to enjoy the full benefits of the external 'ome cinema, doncha? Regards Neal
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Guest Brian Kirby
Thanks Neal I've tried RS components and they have the one Derek refers to, but not the one I've seen. Have you seen it or do you know who makes it? Thanks Brian
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Have taken on board your various suggestions, and have decided to perservere with the current arrangement. The project would appear to be more trouble than it is worth, as you say it keeps the dirt from getting in, and is very visible should you drive away in a hurry ! Though, if in the future i do do the job, the hole can be made into a cat flap, there again would have to buy a cat. So forget about the whole thing, though it has been interesting reading you comments. Safe Driving to All of You.
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I have the cranked couplings you refer to and bought them in an accessory shop near lido de jessolo, Venice. They're also available via www.reimo.co.uk or tel no 01303 261062, part no 82030 You can also see a photo on the www.reimo.com website, do a search on the part no or 'winkelkupplung' (!) pete
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Guest Don Madge
Derek wrote "A special right-angled connector is also available in France. This is actually designed for use beneath a caravan awning and has a secondary 230v Schuko socket (with a hinged cover) built into the connector's outside face. I assume this is to allow electric guitars, chandeliers, water features, home cinemas etc. to be powered whilst on site. (As I'm not very familiar with what caravanners get up to beneath their awnings I'm just guessing.)" Derek, I've had one for years bought mine at the York show (£1.99)they come in very handy at times. When I set up my Kariake machine it saves running the cable through the window especially when it's raining. Regards Don
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Clive The tyres were brand new and only covered 200mls there was no damage and no cracks and were new not remoulds and were Michelins. The tread in the central section seperated from the edges and the tyre disintegrated, the tyre on the opposing wheel was going the same way and we had to have a further two new ones fitted in Calais, not easy on a Sunday!! Now the dilema the start of a four week holiday late tired and just wanting to get to Paris, did we really want to transport two duff tyres around with us inside the van, no not really. Put it down to experience but did phone the company that fitted them and provided photographic evidence and the address of the French garage that changed them, still waiting to hear anything but not holding my breath.
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Ralph, The tyres on our Scout are original Michelins. The camper has been with us for 8 years last August and I guess the chassis cab was made anything up to a year before that. All (including the spare) are in good condition, lots of tread and no cracking. I keep them all quite hard, especially the rear ones and the spare at max pressure. Some say that tyres "time out" so must be changed after about 5 years. But I am a skinflint and the camper is not parked in the sun so rubber deterioration should be a lot less. The time will come one day - but not yet! Thanks for the info C.
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Guest Brian Kirby
Ralph You don't say if the blow out was front or rear. I assume the tyres are Michelin XC Campings? I also assume, as you're still here to tell the tale, it must have been a rear? Do you happen to know: a) What was the axle load for the affected axle, and, b) what were the tyre pressures? If neither the load nor the pressures was wrong, may I suggest, (unless you've already done so, of course) you take your van to a tyre specialist, tell them the tale, and get them to check the manufacturing dates, pressures and condition of the remaining two original tyres? I think you've been very lucky to walk away from a 70mph blow out in a motorhome, leave alone being able to continue your journey. Nevertheless, it seems something is radically wrong, either with the tyres, the loading of the van, or the tyre pressures. Michelin XC Campings are supposed to be just about bomb proof, even to the extent of being constructed to a higher rating that Michelin stamp into them. That is supposed to give them a far greater margin of safety than other, similarly rated, tyres from Michelin or elsewhere. The only other thing I can think of - but I'm no expert - is a serious misalignment of the chassis geometry, most probably the tracking. Hows the steering? My local Fiat dealer claims he sees a lot of misaligned motorhomes. Seems the final pre delivery steering geometry check isn't done very often! Whatever, I do think some further checks on your 'van and tyres are indicated. If another tyre blows it coul easily result in bits motorhome, Ralph and family all over the road! Kind regards Brian
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Hello all who answered. The blow out was a rear tyre. The two rear tyres were new and fitted one month earlier as the old ones though not worn out were at a point where replacement before a months travelling Europe seemed like a good idea (Hmmmmm). They were not XC but were a direct replacement for those that were already fitted, XC's were not fitted, probably not made, when our motorhome was new and were Agilis (??) of the appropriate size. The pressure was 60psi and the load was not high(don't know exactly but less carried than when it was weighed at the weighbridge)because for the first time only me and my wife were on board with less baggage than normal, i.e. no two teenagers and mum-in-law and their respective baggage. I had noticed going down the motorway a 'different' vibration/ rattle of the crockery but put it down to the road surface. When the tyre blew, just between junction 10 and 11 we were travelling at 70mph in the slow lane with little traffic on our side of the motorway heading for Dover, it was pitch black, no lighting at this point. The Motorhome (Elddis Autostratus CK) handled perfectly and apart from the noise and obvious loss of the tyre we came to halt on the hard shoulder fortunately without having to brake and with no drama. Donned hivis full jacket, put out warning triangle, jacked up and changed wheel and continued journey, but missed our ferry by 10 mins (would have been 1 to 1.5 hours early. Mistake was getting the ferry to Calais, found out 15" tyres are not a regular stock in France as they use 16" on Boxers over there apparently and there was nowhere open on Sunday. Should have stayed GB side had them changed and picked them up on our return, still you learn don't you. So there you go, it seems from my discussions with the tyre fitting company that they were faulty new tyres but not having them it will be impossble to prove so £160 down to experience.
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Guest Brian Kirby
All well and good. However, it does seem a bit of a convenient cop out just to be able to say faulty batch! If that is a fact, did anyone attempt to trace the batch, or those who had fitted them, and get them replaced with sound tyres? If you still the receipts for the tyres supplied, the fitting company should be able to positively identify the batch the tyres came from. If the fitting company is willing to do that, why not try writing to Michelin with the facts and the fitting companies statement. Someone owes you for the tyres, and that same someone came very close to getting you involved in a very nasty accident. Middle lane of the M6 would have had a totally different outcome, for example. If they're not willing to do that, write to Michelin anyway with the story, and ask them for their reaction to the faulty batch story. You probably won't get any recompense, but you just may be able to make the tyre fitters sweat a bit because I half suspect Michelin won't have heard of this "faulty batch", leaving the finger pointing at wrongly rated Agilis tyres and thus at the fitters. Your call, obviously, but maybe worth a stamp? Regards Brian
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