paid2travel Posted August 9, 2020 Share Posted August 9, 2020 I'm looking at the possibility of having a dual bottle Gaslow system but as I don't have a bulkhead regulator already in place, is fair to say I really need to sort this out first? As you can see in the pics, the factory fitted 8 mm pipe seems to be at a very awkward angle for a new bulkhead regulator to be fitted easily or at all. Are there any connection adaptors between the fixed 8 mm pipe and a new regulator that would help screw it to the back bulkhead ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 9, 2020 Share Posted August 9, 2020 You don't say what make of system you are intending to use, but assuming Truma, I think a horizontal mounting (I.e. fixed to the "ceiling" of the gas locker) DuoControl would be fairly straightforward for a competent gas fitter to install ( https://tinyurl.com/yxzmh3z2 ). This arrangement would have the advantage of placing the pigtail connections high in the locker, so better ensuring that the pigtails rise from the cylinder to the regulator. As you intend using Gaslow cylinders, and so autogas, you may be wise to also fit the filter shown. It may require the insertion of a short, inclined, length of pipe between the existing pipe and the (probably higher) regulator inlet, possibly facilitated by two elbows (or one and a bend), but that should not present a problem for a competent fitter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted August 9, 2020 Share Posted August 9, 2020 As Brian says, it shouldn't be a problem for a competent gas fitter, elbows and pipe-bending should suffice. (Even then, if it were a significant problem with angle, a suitable length of gas hose from the existing pipe run to a barb-fitting on the regulator would probably suffice. I suspect people might question this, but my Hymer effectively has just such an arrangement, as it has a "slide-out" for the gas bottles with the regulator mounted with the bottles on the slide-out, and a high-pressure hose connection to the locker wall to cater for the required flexibility when sliding). As for filters, if the regulator can be mounted higher than the bottle "take-off" (which looks a bit questionable unless it is mounted horizontally as Brian suggests) and you are using Gaslow bottles, then I'm not sure i would bother. The Gaslow bottles purport to have an inbuilt filter in the outlet (though they won't easily be user-serviceable like separate ones). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paid2travel Posted August 9, 2020 Author Share Posted August 9, 2020 Ok thanks Brian & Robinhood, Yes, I was thinking of a Truma GOK Bulkhead-Mounted Regulator but did see some comments in previous posts that they can fail. As the posts were some time ago I guess that issue has been improved somewhat ? I did also think about a ceiling regulator placement option, then looked inside my van around the dinette area under the seat to get an idea of what’s behind the cage ceiling. It turns out it’s furnished with only a thin section of plywood so I’m not quite sure whether this is sturdy enough or whether it’s the norm for most vehicles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 9, 2020 Share Posted August 9, 2020 Martin This 2018 Gaslow catalogue may be helpful https://www.gaslowdirect.com/WebRoot/GroupNBT/Shops/cyujrhdmmu67/MediaGallery/Gaslow_Catalogue_2018_lo-res.pdf Assuming that you were planning to have a device that allows the gas feed to be switched (manually or automatically) between the two gas bottles, you'd need to ensure that the hoses (pigtails) running from the bottles to the change-over device run ‘up hill’ along the full length of each hose. Also that the hoses be as short as practicable. The recommendation is that 450mm pigtails be used https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Pigtails/33203/ but a 750mm length would probably be needed if a change-over device were installed on the gas-locker’s ceiling. As far as fixing a change-over device/regulator to your Carado’s gas-locker ceiling is concerned, if the ceiling is currently made of thin plywood, strengthen the ceiling with an extra layer of plywood. My Rapido has its Truma DuoControl CS device on the gas-locker’s ceiling, but the ceiling is built to be thick enough to have the change-over device screwed to it, whereas your Carado’s locker is designed for an on-bottle regulator. The Gaslow advert for their R67 bottles says Gaslow R67 Safety Features The Gaslow range of cylinders are the only cylinders to under go a Bonfire test for strength and durability. Unique safety features that Only R67 Gaslow refillables give: - Built-in Excess flow Valve which prevents full flow of gas if the regulator hose ruptures. -The special micro-design filter prevents any liquid gas passing through the valve as it vaporises any liquid during normal use. This feature is now required in the new EU standard. - Internal brass filter which helps prevent impurities contaminating the regulator and gas system. - Improved, mechanically accurate contents gauge with upgradeable remote indicator (01-4030) The brass filter referred to is not accessible and is probably the fine-mesh type. It is unlikely to be as effiective as the Truma ‘anti-oil’ filter. If you are going to carry a pair of Gaslow R67 bottles, it needs to be asked whether the expense and effort of installing a bulkhead-mounted regulator is worthwhile. R67 bottles have an accurate contents-level gauge, so it’s not difficult to know when the bottle is approaching empty. It would be much simpler (and a whole lot cheaper) to stay with a 30mbar on-bottle regulator and just switch the regulator between bottles. What you may also wish to reconsider is the idea of carrying TWO user-refillable gas bottles. It’s a not unreasonable plan when a motorhome’s gas locker can only hold small-capacity bottles that will need regular refilling if gas usage is high, but your Carado’s locker will undoubtedly be able to accommodate an 11kg refillable bottle. Unless you seriously intend to get through a lot of gas (say on skiing trips) a single11kg user-refillable bottle with (say) a 6kg Calor propane bottle as an emergency back-up might well suffice. A ‘full-house’ 2 x 11kg bottles Gaslow system (example in attached image) would cost well over £700, plus installation costs, whereas - if you weren’t concerned about having a remote filling-point - a single Gaslow 11kg Direct Fill bottle would be under £200 with minimal fitting costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paid2travel Posted August 10, 2020 Author Share Posted August 10, 2020 Thanks for this Derek ! Taking onboard your suggestions along with Brian & Robinhood, I think it would be sensible to start out with a single gas refillable system with the potential to upgrade to a dual system but as you point out, there is a tendency to think two is always better than one bottle without considering the cost aspects and the fact that there seems to be a growing number of refillable service stations around now, so as long as I’ve got an extra bottle for emergencies I could always refill the single system without being caught out. I’ve still got one full changeable 11kg propane bottle which could be used as my dormant spare. As far as the bulkhead regulator placement in my locker is concerned, I’m going to get the garage to sort that out for me as they are an approved motorhome repair shop and they did a good job with my new solar panel. Plus by the time I've figured out which attachments I may or may not need etc it'll be just as cheap to get a fitter who instantly knows what's needed. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted August 10, 2020 Share Posted August 10, 2020 Martin, Also consider using Stainless Steel pigtails as opposed to rubber as the SS have a life of 20 years versus 5 for rubber. And SS are reputed to not suffer from leaching of plasticisers into oil which clogs the regulator. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paid2travel Posted August 10, 2020 Author Share Posted August 10, 2020 Yeah looking at this now Keith, at first I thought it's a little too expensive to have SS pigtails but I guess it's about reducing the risk of contamination rather than saving a few £s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 10, 2020 Share Posted August 10, 2020 paid2travel - 2020-08-10 11:04 AM Thanks for this Derek ! Taking onboard your suggestions along with Brian & Robinhood, I think it would be sensible to start out with a single gas refillable system with the potential to upgrade to a dual system but as you point out, there is a tendency to think two is always better than one bottle without considering the cost aspects and the fact that there seems to be a growing number of refillable service stations around now, so as long as I’ve got an extra bottle for emergencies I could always refill the single system without being caught out. I’ve still got one full changeable 11kg propane bottle which could be used as my dormant spare. As far as the bulkhead regulator placement in my locker is concerned, I’m going to get the garage to sort that out for me as they are an approved motorhome repair shop and they did a good job with my new solar panel. Plus by the time I've figured out which attachments I may or may not need etc it'll be just as cheap to get a fitter who instantly knows what's needed. Martin There are suggestions that the current availability of autogas will, or is already, diminishing - because it is a hydrocarbon fuel. If your gas consumption is sufficiently low that you can happily rub along on a single connected cylinder, with a second in store but not connected, then I don't think I'd spend money on a refillable system. If the thought that your single cylinder may run out at an inconvenient time (is there ever a convenient time? :-)) is your reason for wanting the auto-changeover system, that would be equally true whether your cylinders are refillable, exchange, or one of each. So to me this would make the better value of the two, with installing both refillable and auto-changeover in third place. If you may use your van in winter you can add EisEx, which is a small heater to prevent the changeover valve icing up, with which you also get a control panel with an internal indication of when the system has switched to the reserve cylinder, when you reset the changeover valve to use the reserve cylinder and swap in a new cylinder as reserve. Refillables are only economically sensible for high gas volume users, where the lower unit cost of autogas gas compared to that of exchange cylinders, repays the installation cost over time. For others, whose limited ability to lift the heavy exchange cylinders in/out of their vans, refillables offer the only viable option. If you are not in either of these categories, I see no great advantage for refillables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paid2travel Posted August 10, 2020 Author Share Posted August 10, 2020 Our aim is to spend time touring Europe and to try out wild camping with a view of doing more of this than EHU. We also plan to cook ourselves so that coupled with using our van in colder seasons as well means we could potentially use more gas than normal. We also think that a 11kg single refillable bottle would integrate well abroad and would intend to only use our spare exchange bottle as an emergency. As this is our first time abroad we might end up just using the refillable without the need for an additional bottle, or, find we could do with extra capacity so it’s a bit of a test-it-and-see scenario until we really get to know our demand and usage parameters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 11, 2020 Share Posted August 11, 2020 This earlier forum thread may be of interest to you https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/GAS-IN-EUROPE/48534/ There have been discussions here in the past regarding the financial benefits of user-refillable bottles (as the ‘per-litre’ price of autogas will be less than that of ‘bottle gas’) but the calculation is complex and depends on the initial cost of the refillable system, the amount of gas used over time and whether the system is left in situ when a motorhome is disposed of or the system is removed and sold secondhand. There’s expert advice here that demonstrates that there are alternatives to the Gaslow products (and there’s also the possibility of fitting an external gas tank and using the gas-locker for extra storage). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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