Nuevo pump probs

[Sparky7]

When not on hook-up (and sometimes when hooked up), my water pump starts running on. Marquis tell me that when my leisure battery voltage drops, the pump needs its pressure adjusting. This happens on my camper when the battery voltage readout is Fair (as opposed to Poor) on the monitoring display. Adjusting the pump involves emptying the wardrobe and nosediving into its depths to twiddle the adjustment. As the pump tends to start playing up when in the shower (late evening, lights, telly etc, therefore battery capacity dropping) it is unimaginably inconvenient to have to rush out dripping and do this! Marquis tell me that this is how it is if I won't hook up, but I would have thought that a fully charged new leisure battery would have coped with one night not on hook-up. Does this apply to everyone?

[Derek Uzzell]

Sparky7 - 2012-11-24 6:24 PM

 

...Does this apply to everyone?

 

No it doesn't.

 

Can you say what make of water-pump is fitted to your Nuevo, please, and what you are 'twiddling' when you adjust the pump's pressure?

[Tracker]

That's a new one ! Never heard of that before!

 

It would help if you could elaborate a bit on 'pump running on', but if you mean continuing to run after the tap is turned off they all do to a certain extent to repressurise the system enough for the pressure sensitive switch in the pump to activate and switch off the pump.

 

If you mean running for short intervals with the taps closed that usually indicates a loss of pressure caused by a leak somewhere in the system. Either a water seep at a joint somewhere or air getting into the system?

 

I've had vans with Shurflo pumps for many many years and have never had to adjust one yet - however I have had filter bowls or connections work loose or crack and non return valves fail to non return on very rare occasion.

[mirage]

Agree with tracker, I`ve never had to make any sort of pressure adjustment on a pump for years, regardless of battery condition. Not exactly sure what you mean by "running on" the pump will obviously continue to run for a very short time until the pressure is restored in the system following use.

[nuevoboy]

If Sparky has to run out in the middle of a shower then it seems that the "running on" problem isn't what we understand (i.e. continuing to run after closing down taps).

The pump on our Nuevo (2005) is underneath the offside settee, not in the cupboard beneath the wardrobe and despite all the problems I've had with my pump *-) , I've never had to make an actual adjustment to it (yet ;-) ).

[Rayjsj]

IF ? the pump is a shurflo, there is a small pressure adjustment screw on the top, but it is only for very minor adjustment, if you get minor 'water hammer' for instance, if the 'Pump Hunting' or water hammer is too bad, Shurflo recommend an 'accumulator' to smooth the flow out. Never needed it on my other two vans, but my present one, with semi-rigid pipe-work looks like it might need one, as I am unable to adjust out the 'Pulsing' of the water when on low tap settings.

Has your pump worked well in the past (without 'Adjustment' ) ? ie. anything changed ? Ray

[kelly58]

If like my Nuevo II its Whale inline Pressure Pump and can be a pain in the proverbial. Full instructions on resetting the pump can be found on www.whalepumps.com Its worth speaking direct to Whale service centre as I did explaining the problem ,mine was a sticking micro switch and they advised a new pump which Marquis claimed for under warranty and then posted it direct to me for me to fit.

[Derek Uzzell]

kelly58 - 2012-11-25 9:37 AM

 

If like my Nuevo II its Whale inline Pressure Pump and can be a pain in the proverbial. Full instructions on resetting the pump can be found on www.whalepumps.com Its worth speaking direct to Whale service centre as I did explaining the problem ,mine was a sticking micro switch and they advised a new pump which Marquis claimed for under warranty and then posted it direct to me for me to fit.

 

That's interesting, as it was assumed with nuevoboy's motorhome's water-system problems that the pump involved was SHURflo-made but I could never satisfactorily visualise the layout of the system if that were the case.

 

This ASOC forum thread may well be relevant to Sparky7's problem

 

http://www.autosleeper-ownersforum.com/t4153-nuevo-pump-running-on

 

(Could you describe your Nuevo ii's water-system layout in a bit more detail? I'm assuming the Whale in-line water-pump is inside the motorhome (not in the external fresh-water tank) and that there's a separate Whale adjustable 'pressure switch'. Is that correct, please?)

 

 

[Sparky7]

The pump is a whale, & the set-up is the same as Kelly 58's with the pump itself in the underslung water tank and an in-line pressure switch inside the bottom of the wardrobe. Marquis adjusted it when I went back to them about it in the first instance and when it happened the other evening & I went back to them again I was more or less told that I'd just have to live with it!

 

Thanks for all the help

 

Sparky

[Tracker]

Sorry - when we had a Nuevo it was a Shurflo - didn't know it had changed - for the worse!

Progress eh - dontcha just love it!!

[Derek Uzzell]

Sparky7

 

Whale's instructions for adjustment of their in-line pressure-switch are here

 

http://www.whalepumps.com/rv/siteFiles/resources/docs/resource-library/WhaleAdjustingyourpressureswitchb.pdf

 

The instructions contain a caveat about the switch possibly needing to be adjusted if the power-supply voltage varies, which tallies with the advice you received from Marquis. A replacement pressure-switch might fix the present problem, or the addition of a surge-damper as suggested by Whale. However, if the voltage at the pressure-switch does drop significantly when the motorhome is off hook-up and you've got the lights and TV on (Is the TV run from an inverter?) then you may indeed have to live with having to adjust the switch when you move from on-hook-up to off-hook-up.

 

[Sparky7]

Thanks for that. Yes, I have the info from Whale about the adjustment. Marquis tell me it isn't possible to fit a surge damper on my system. Kelly 58 tells me he heard a click on adjusting his pump pressure switch and on asking Whale, they said it was a microswitch which could'nt be fixed and he needed a new pump. Although I haven't had the battery low enough yet (at home & hooked up) I do hear an audible click, preceeded by a sort of fluttering noise, before the pump goes off. I've had pump probs on my last camper (don't say it's me!) and my new pump sounds the same as the old one did just before it went on the blink.

So what do others do when on a CS?CL without hookup, or at a rally? Do people really rush, dripping & soapy from the shower to empty the bottom of the wardrobe, remove the drawer under it & start groping about? Whale say the pump will burn itself out if one just leaves it running. I really don't think I can live like this and want it sorted before the vehicle comes out of warranty.

Hacked off Sparky

[Rayjsj]

Did Marquis say 'Why' you couldn't fit a Surge damper/ Accumulator to your system ? all it is a 'Buffer' of water in the system, that allows the pump to 'take it easy' and not have to struggle to fulfil demand.

I would question this. I think a Surge damper/Accumulator would solve your problem.

Provided your Battery is in good condition. ? Ray

[Derek Uzzell]

As far as I can see, there still seems to be doubt/confusion regarding the type of water-system fitted to the motohomes owned by nuevoboy, kelly58 and Sparky7 and how the various components function..

 

Nuevoboy’s photos in an earlier thread, and kelly58’s and Sparky7’s comments in this one, appear to indicate that the system fitted to their Auto-Sleepers Nuevo motorhomes is a fairly common ‘caravan’ type. This system will have

 

a) A submerged water-pump in the motorhome’s external fresh-water tank.

b) A non-return valve ‘downstream’ of the pump and inside the motorhome.

c) A Whale in-line pressure-switch ‘downstream’ of the non-return valve.

 

The submerged water-pump has a 12V power-supply provided by a cable connected to the Whale pressure-switch. The pressure-switch has a 12V power-supply that can be manually switched on and off. When the pressure-switch is manually switched on the pressure-switch will, in turn cause the water-pump to operate. When the water within the system reaches a preset pressure (adjustable at the pressure-switch) this is ‘recognised’ by the pressure-switch that then turns off the water-pump. When the pressure in the system falls (eg. when a water-tap is opened) the drop in pressure within the system will cause the pressure-switch to turn the submerged water-pump on again - and so on, and so on. All pretty straightforward…

 

Kelly58 (and possibly nuevoboy previously) SEEMS to be equating a Whale in-line pressure-switch to a Whale in-line pump, which is a different thing altogether. A sticking micro-switch in a Whale in-line pressure-switch may well need the switch replacing, but there’s no logical reason to think a water-pump would need replacing as result of an in-line pressure-switch becoming faulty.

 

(If the Nuevo water-systems being discussed here differ significantly from what I’ve described in the first four paragraphs of this posting, it would be helpful to know what those differences are.)

 

Sparky7 has only owned his Nuevo a few months and the water-system of his previous motorhome included a Whale Clearstream 700 water-pump as shown here http://tinyurl.com/chq6n54 This pump is a diaphragm type and quite different to a submerged pump. Seeking to relate problems with the type of system I’ve mentioned above with problems in a system that includes a diaphragm-type pump is unlikely to be productive.

 

As long as there’s room to do it, it should be possible to add a surge damper to Sparky7’s system. I'm not optimistic that doing so would provide a cure, but it might be worth trying.

 

[Sparky7]

Many thanks for the comprehensive reply. Yes, I think the system is as you describe in A, B & C, but I'm no expert. Marquis tell me that it isn't possible to fit a surge damper. I don't think Kelly 58 is equating the pressure switch to a pump as he's already told me his pump is in the water tank itself and that replacing it seems to have sorted the problem. I've emailed the ASOC but haven't had a reply yet. None of their info sheets seem to cover this. This is starting to get very confusing! I really can't believe that anybody has to live with this stupid system. There are so many Nuevo IIs out there that someone must have got to the bottom of it. Meanwhile, Marquis are still looking into it.

Soapy Sparky

[kelly58]

Inline Whale Pressure Pump as fitted to the A/S Nuevo which was the cause of my pump running on after the tap was closed and was replaced by me via Marquis and Whale.

[Brian Kirby]

Sparky7 - 2012-11-26 2:59 PM

 

Many thanks for the comprehensive reply. Yes, I think the system is as you describe in A, B & C, but I'm no expert. Marquis tell me that it isn't possible to fit a surge damper. I don't think Kelly 58 is equating the pressure switch to a pump as he's already told me his pump is in the water tank itself and that replacing it seems to have sorted the problem. I've emailed the ASOC but haven't had a reply yet. None of their info sheets seem to cover this. This is starting to get very confusing! I really can't believe that anybody has to live with this stupid system. There are so many Nuevo IIs out there that someone must have got to the bottom of it. Meanwhile, Marquis are still looking into it.

Soapy Sparky

From Derek's description of the system, I don't understand how voltage comes into the equation. Opening tap lowers water pressure. Switch then closes to start pump. Pump runs. Closing tap while pump still running raises water pressure. Switch opens. Pump stops. Simple system. All that is required is the appropriate water pressure to operate the pressure switch. Possibly a duff pressure switch?

 

Also, I'm not entirely clear what it is that gets Sparky7 out of the shower! I assume he wets himself all over, soaps up, and then realises the pump is still running with the shower now turned off. So, he exits the shower at this point, to deal with the pressure switch. However, he must then re-enter the shower to rinse the suds off, and presumably, having previously re-set the pressure switch, finds the pump shuts down when he has finished. So, could he please confirm if this description of the sequence is correct?

 

Next, does this behaviour of the pump/pressure switch arise when any other tap is opened/closed? If not, I am even more puzzled. So, might there be a restriction somewhere in the shower installation that causes a back-pressure, so that the pressure switch cannot distinguish when the shower is "off"? "On" should be relatively easy, open shower valve, water pressure falls, and switch closes under spring pressure in pressure switch. But if there is a restriction to water flow, so that water pressure to the shower is always high, and especially if the switch is sticking, the pressure change between the shower being on, and off, may not be sufficient to re-open the switch.

 

Back on voltage, the only way I can rationalise a failure of the pump to switch off if voltage is low, would be if it then runs so slowly it cannot develop sufficient pressure to re-open the pressure switch. If that is the case, I would expect there to be a stated voltage range outside which the pump cannot be relied upon. No such range is stated by Whale on their submersible pumps datasheet.

 

Then, there is this, from the "Adjusting your Pressure Switch" leaflet: "Pump runs intermittently ON, OFF, ON, OFF etc. Seen as pulsing flow from tap, or as inability to set constant water temperature, water goes hot, cold, hot, cold instead of constant warm. Most likely cause is that present voltage is significantly higher than when last adjusted.

CURE: Re-adjust pressure switch, if problem persists add a Whale Surge Damper (WS7205)."

 

I can understand that high voltage may cause the pump to go into "overdrive", causing the pressure switch to keep closing and opening, but I can't understand how this could cause the wild water temperature swings.

 

My immediate conclusion from that is that the pumps are inadequately buffered against voltage swings (which are pretty inevitable in use), and should be fed through a voltage stabiliser. However, if I understood my physics correctly, it will be the Amps that do the real work, the Volts merely being the vehicle that delivers them. I don't know if the Amperage available from a battery is more or less constant as it discharges. If it is, and only the Voltage declines, a voltage stabiliser might have the desired effect. Any ideas?

 

Since Whale seem to advocate fitting surge dampers, I don't understand why Marquis say this cannot be done. Do they mean cannot be done under warranty? If so, they need reminding that it is for them, as the seller of the van, to do whatever is necessary to make the water system work properly and acceptably, and for them to then argue with AS over whatever reimbursement is due. They cannot hide behind AS warranty terms, they have an over riding legal obligation to rectify the defect, warranty or no warranty. Whatever the cure, back to Marquis, methinks! :-D

[Derek Uzzell]

kelly58 - 2012-11-26 5:11 PM

 

Inline Whale Pressure Pump as fitted to the A/S Nuevo which was the cause of my pump running on after the tap was closed and was replaced by me via Marquis and Whale.

 

Your photo is of Whale's in-line pressure-switch.

 

http://www.whalepumps.com/rv/siteFiles/resources/docs/resource-library/InlinePressureSwitch_datasheet.pdf

 

This is not a water-pump. The pump (according to Auto-Sleepers documentation) is a Whale 'submersible' pump housed in the motorhome's external fresh-water tank. An example of a Whale submersible pump is here:

 

http://www.whalepumps.com/rv/product.aspx?Category_ID=10006&Product_ID=15&FriendlyID=Whale-Submersible-Electric-Pumps

 

An in-line pump can be added to a water system to boost the water flow, but I'm sure Auto-Sleepers won't have done that. Neither Whale submersible pumps nor Whale in-line pumps have integrated switches - they are non-adjustable, being either on or off according to whether they have, or have not, an electrical power supply.

 

It would appear from your use of the word "pump" that Sparky7 has gained the impression that it was the Whale submersible pump in your Nuevo's fresh-water tank that was replaced and that this fixed your problem. As you mentioned a "sticking micro switch" in your earlier posting, I assumed you were talking about a Whale pressure-switch (as the pumps don't have micro-switches), so it was surprising (and confusing) to learn that a Whale service centre had (apparently) advised that a new pump was needed.

 

 

[Guest pelmetman]

Tracker - 2012-11-25 11:10 AM

 

Progress eh

 

Oi Rich!............that's my tag line *-)........... (lol) (lol) (lol)

 

But as you say......progress eh? :D

[kelly58]

My typing error should have said switch NOT PUMP !!!

[graham]

I don't know where you live but if I were you I would try and take it back to the AS service centre. On our previous AS vans we had odd problems that were always quickly sorted out there. The Broadway CC site is only 10 mins away and so is a convenient stop over.

[nuevoboy]

Just for clarification, the pump on my 2005 Nuevo isn't a submersible housed in the freshwater tank.

As can hopefuly be seen in the photo, it's a "normal" in line(?) pump, housed underneath the offside settee, adjacent to and slightly above the dump switch and non-return valve that I posted on my query regarding the pipe fittings, slight leak and subsequent failure to repressurise.

 

Once again I must thank, (especially Derek ) for taking so much interest and trying to solve others problems.

 

Edit: Terribly sorry about the state of the photo.

By the time I'd resized it a dozen times to get it down below 100kb, it ended up like this. :$

 

Pretty 1970's psychedelic poster-effect though, don't you think. :D

[Derek Uzzell]

nuevoboy - 2012-11-26 10:50 PM

 

Just for clarification, the pump on my 2005 Nuevo isn't a submersible housed in the freshwater tank...

 

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

I'm still not sure about your Nuevo's water-system layout. Is it like this?

 

External water-tank -> non-return valve -> drain-tap -> water-pump -> water-boiler/taps

 

If so, I don't understand how you drain the system, as I'd expect your water-pump - which I believe is a SHURflo 'diaphragm' model - to prevent water flowing back (through the pump) to the drain-tap.

 

The following layout would allow draining via gravity, but it seems to conflict with your photo in the your earlier 'water leak' inquiry thread:

 

External water-tank -> non-return valve -> water-pump -> drain-tap -> water-boiler/taps

 

The layout below (with two drain-valves) would also work and would tally with your photo:

 

External water-tank -> non-return valve -> drain-tap ->water-pump -> drain-tap -> water-boiler/taps

 

Perhaps you don't drain your Nuevo's water-system through the drain-valve using gravity, but employ the water-pump to expel the water 'downstream' of the pump through the taps (Would that work effectively?) or something. I can see a potential value in having a drain-valve between the pump and the non-return valve just to drain that section of pipework, but not for overall system draining.

 

Conversely, if the system layout were like this (which I assume is the layout that kelly58's and Sparky7's Nuevos have)

 

External water-tank -> submersible-water-pump -> non-return valve -> drain-tap -> Whale pressure-switch -> water-boiler/taps

 

it would make perfect sense regarding draining via gravity.

 

Perhaps I'm missing something - how do you drain down your Nuevo's water-system, please?

[Derek Uzzell]

Brian Kirby - 2012-11-26 5:15 PM

 

From Derek's description of the system, I don't understand how voltage comes into the equation....

 

It takes very little GOOGLE-ing to establish that (as Kelly58 said earlier) these Whale pressure-switches can be "a pain in the proverbial".

 

Whale warn of the possible need to re-adjust the switch to cope with a voltage change and this caveat is repeated in the Auto-Sleepers handbooks. There's more voltage-related detail here:

 

http://www.a-tconsulting.co.uk/caravan_tech/water_systems.html

 

I don't think Spark7 has ever said how old his Nuevo is, but I suspect it's old enough to be outside Auto-Sleepers's warranty and is now warranted by Marquis for a limited period.

 

When this type of system is installed in caravans the potential impact of voltage variations may not much matter, as caravanners will tend to use on-campsite facilities for showering and tend to use campsite 230V hook-ups. So, if a caravanner adjusts a Whale pressure-switch when the caravan is on hook-up, it may not need (or may rarely need) adjusting again. Motorcaravans that are being swapped between being on-hook-up and off-hook-up are clearly more likely to be affected by the voltage-change characteristic. At best it may cause a need to readjust the switch now and again: at worst it may result in the submersible pump burning out from 'running on'.

 

Regarding Sparky7's Nuevo, the questions that initially need to be asked is whether the motorhome's water-system is acting as one might anticipate given the way he is operating the vehicle, or whether there's a 'fault' that can be remedied. If the owner of Nuevo with this water-system chooses to shower when the motorhome's leisure-battery is significantly discharged, a TV and habitation lights are on, and the vehicle is off-hook-up, will it be considered 'normal' to expect the Whale pressure-switch to need to be adjusted if the switch was previously set when the motorhome was on-hook-up?

 

If what's happening with Sparky7's Nuevo cannot be considered 'normal', then the logical first step would be to replace the Whale pressure-switch as that's clearly a main player in the system, If that doesn't improve matters, and the motorhome has some age, it would be worth looking at the condition of the water-pump (Is it clear of debris?), the operation of the non-return valve and the voltage being supplied to the Whale switch. A motorhome's on-board battery-charger can produce a voltage in excess of 14V, while thin-gauge electrical cabling can result in a substantial voltage-drop if the cable-run is long. So there could be a big difference between the voltage at the pressure-switch on or off hook-up, even when a leisure-battery is fully charged.

 

That irritation results from the need to fiddle about with a pressure-switch setting to deal with voltage changes is evidently recognised by Whale. See:

 

http://www.whalepumps.com/rv/siteFiles/resources/docs/resource-library/Watermaster_IC_Flyer.pdf

 

Unfortunately this will be no help to Sparky7 unless he opts for Whale's alternative suggestion that involves replacing a Whale submersible pump + Whale pressure-sensitive switch combination with a Whale pressure-sensitive diaphragm water-pump.

 

Amongst on-line comments about the Whale pressure-switch are occasional enthusiastic references to a "sellf-calibrating pressure switch". See:

 

http://viewitem.eim.ebay.fi/CARAVAN-SELF-CALIBRATING-SUBMERSIBLE-WATER-PUMP-PRESSURE-SWITCH/330651616336/item/index.en-US.html

 

I'm pretty sure this product was regularly advertised in the Caravan Club Magazine (though not recently). It was made by a UK company called MID SERVICE CENTRE and contact details are here:

 

http://www.yelp.co.uk/biz/mid-service-centre-sutton-coldfield

 

There doesn't seem to be a website for this firm, but an alternative telephone number is said to be 0843 266 3854

 

It might be worth checking with Mid Service Centre if the 'magic' switch is still availble as it may be the answer to Sparky7's prayers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[crinklystarfish]

I'd personally be throwing all the Whale stuff in the bin and starting again, but that's probably not that helpful.

Apols if this has been mentioned as I only skimmed some of the longer posts but a sideways cure might be to upgrade battery capacity. Not sure what the current installation is but 200+Ah -if not abused - should help with the (Whale admitted) electrical sensitivity.

Arguably this system is not fit for purpose on a motorhome.