OIL Warning for Ducato Euro 6 Engines

[Keithl]

I have just read this on the Auto-Trail OC website and think it merits being copied here...

 

"Fiat Engine Oil Euro 6 IMPORTANT NOTE

 

I have been trying to source top-up engine oil for the Euro 6 engine and this has been quite interesting. The oil is fully synthetic which of course equals expensive. I have tried to match the specification with oils available and came across what appeared to be a major error. The Fiat Handbook page on Fluids and Lubricants (page 329 in mine) states the oil is SAE 0W-30 ACEA C2 with the specification shown as being 9.55535-S1. This being manufactured by Petronas and named Selenia WR Forward. In talking to Petronas and Castrol I have ascertained that the S1 is ascribed to a Euro 5 engine and NOT Euro 6 and is not recommended for the Euro 6 models. I have spoken with Fiat Customer Service who confirm that the oil required for this engine is SAE 0W-30 ACEA C2 with a specification of 9.55535-DS1. They accept that there is a misprint in my Handbook and showed some concern over this. They have escalated the issue to the powers that be who are concerned with the production of the handbook and expect there to be a correction issued via a Service Update through Fiat Professional agents. I have also been warned that these engines are liable to use a half litre of oil every 600 miles and therefore a close watch needs to be kept on the engine oil levels.

I am unsure how many members already have Euro 6 vehicles but as more purchase new models hopefully they will pick up on this issue. I am sure that it will take months for this to appear in new Handbooks, mine is dated 02/2015 and came with a 2017 model, meanwhile owners and presumably maintenance engineers may well be filling up with incorrect fluids."

 

https://www.atocuk.com/general-information/

 

Keith.

[Derek Uzzell]

I’ve just looked at a 12/2016 copy of the Ducato Owner Manual and this defines the specification of the engine oil for diesel powerplants as SAE 0W-30 ACEA C2 9.55535-DS1 SELENIA WR FORWARD.

 

Although earlier Handbooks for Euro 6 Ducatos contained a misprint, SELENIA WR FORWARD 0W 30 definitely has an ACEA C2 9.55535-DS1 specifiucation. (It should be possible to wade through the on-line Handbooks to see when the misprint was corrected, but I’m not going to do it!!)

 

A potential problem would arise only if SELENIA WR FORWARD were not used and the 9.55535-S1 specification were taken particular note of. Hopefully a Fiat Professional agent would have always used SELENIA WR FORWARD oil rather than another oil that happened to have the 9.55535-S1 specification.

[Derek Uzzell]

A follow-up based solely on the on-line Owner Handbook information for Ducsato Campers.

 

I remember thinking to myself after the current range of Euro 6 Ducatos had begun to be marketed that Fiat seemed to be taking a helluva long time getting a Owner Handbook for them on-line.

 

The appropriate on-line Ducato Owner Handbook can be selected by entering into Fiat’s ‘elum’ application the vehicle’s year and month. It’s noticeable that the Handbook with a publication date of 05/2015 (1st Editiion) is selected for Ducato Campers from (at least) December 2015 right through to November 2016. However, this Handbook DOES NOT apply to the current range of Euro 6 powerplants. There is a reference in the 05/2015 Handbook to the 150 MJ Euro 6 motor (that was offered in parallel with later ‘Euro 5+’ engines) but it’s plain (or should be) from the Handbook’s references to the 110 MJ 2.3litre and 180 MJ Power (3.0litre) motors that this Handbook is for Euro 5+ Ducatos. Only when December 2016 is entered does a ‘genuine’ Handbook for Euro 6 Ducatos appear (publication date 03/2017) appear and this clearly IS for current Euro 6 Ducatos (no reference to the 3.0litre diesel motor, etc.)

 

It has to be said that there seems to be some doubt with the earlier (Euro 5+) Handbook as to which Selenia oil is advised (WR P.E. or WR Forward) but if the owner of a Ducato with a current Euro 6 motor has the appropriate Euro 6 Handbook, there should be no doubt that Selenia WR Forward is the recommended oil.

 

As I see it, this is not really about what is the the ‘correct’ oil/specification for Ducato Euro 6 motors, it’s primarily about an owner rocognising that they have the right Handbook.

[Robinhood]

Derek Uzzell - 2017-05-09 1:52 PM

 

It has to be said that there seems to be some doubt with the earlier (Euro 5+) Handbook as to which Selenia oil is advised (WR P.E. or WR Forward) but if the owner of a Ducato with a current Euro 6 motor has the appropriate Euro 6 Handbook, there should be no doubt that Selenia WR Forward is the recommended oil.

 

 

...the Petronas site oil selection tool is pretty straightforward in its recommendation (albeit it dubs the Euro6 engined versions as MY 2014, which they weren't).

 

For the F1AGL411x engines (Euro6) the recommendation is Selenia WR Forward.

 

For the F1AE3481x engines (Euro5+) the recommendation is Selenia WR P.E.

 

(FWIW, at service by my Fiat Professional dealer, a system printed service sheet was provided by VIN, listing all required parts and lubricants. My Euro5+ was, as expected, listed as requiring Selenia WR P.E.)

[Derek Uzzell]

I notice that the Auto-Trail Owners’ Club warning Keithl mentioned in the original posting

 

https://www.atocuk.com/general-information/

 

was added to on 7 May.

 

The update reads as follows:

 

"UPDATE 07/05/17

Just thought that you might be interested to know that the saga with Fiat continues.

Fiat Customer Services came back to me to confirm that the correct oil for the Euro 6 engines is SAE 0W-30 ACEA C2 with a specification of 9.55535-DS1 entitled Selenia WR Forward. I asked the source of their confirmation and was told that it was from the Fiat Handbook. Having emphasised that this was not in my handbook they conceded that the handbook was out of date. At the bottom of the last page of my handbook there is a Print Number : 603.99.772 – 05/2015 – 1st edition despite being shipped with a 2017 model. It was suggested that for the up to date version I should refer to the internet to which I responded that this was unacceptable and potentially impossible if I were located on a campsite with no signal or communication. The correct handbook for Euro 6 models is Print Number. 603.91.187 – 03/2017- 3rd edition. On investigation I found that the 2015 handbook was ascribed to all cabs up to November 2016 and suddenly changed to the 2017 version with December 2016 models. I have also established that the latest 2017 Auto-Trail and also Swift models continue to be shipped with the 2015 handbook – someone seems to have a job lot of these with little concern to the end user. I wonder how many other incorrect references appear in the earlier version??

 

Having remonstrated with Fiat, who refused to send me an updated version, they advised that I spoke with my dealer or the local Fiat Professional garage to come to some agreement as to how a current handbook could be made available!! I understand that the potential cost to acquire the correct handbook is £20 + VAT. You will not be surprised to hear that I will not be paying that!!”

 

It’s pretty much inevitable that vehicle handbooks will contain errors. My 03/2014 Ducato Owner Handbook has wrong headings for the engine-compartment drawings, with the drawing relating to the 2.0litre motor headed “110-130-150 MultiJet versions” and the 2.3litre-motors drawing headed “115 MultiJet versions”. This might temporarily confuse someone seeking to check their Ducato’s oil-level (or top it up) as the position of the dip-stick/oil-filler differs, but the Handbook error is actually fairly obvious and I can’t say it much bothers me.

 

As Euro 6 Ducatos began to be marketed in mid-2016, an Owner Handbook with a publication date of 05/2015 perhaps ought to have set off warning bells, particularly as it was well known that changes to the powerplant line-up had ben made for Euro 6 Ducatos.

 

But there’s really no excuse if the 05/2015 Handbook continues to be provided with Euro 6 Ducatos, nor that Fiat should expect Ducato Euro 6 owners who become aware that they have an outdated Handbook to access the correct up-to-date on-line version or to pay for the correct Handbook in hard-copy format. This is classic Fiat customer relations at its historic worst and owners of Ducato Euro 6 vehicles who do not have the appropriate Owner Handbook should be inundating Fiat with complaints about this and demanding a free-of-charge replacement.

[Robinhood]

Robinhood - 2017-05-09 10:19 PM

 

........ (albeit it dubs the Euro6 engined versions as MY 2014, which they weren't).

 

 

...which, in itself, only follows Fiat practice......

 

As far as obtaining the correct manual is concerned.....many people nowadays carry electronic devices capable of holding downloaded files.

 

The Fiat manual(s) including the correct Euro6 version are readily downloadable for offline access (in addition to being browsable online) from the Fiat Elum site, and are likely to be in the order of 20MB in size, not beyond the capacity of most tablets and smartphones.

 

http://aftersales.fiat.com/elum/Home.aspx?brand_code=77&id_language=2

 

Someone may want to suggest this option to the originator of the info.

[ColinM50]

I have a new (mar07) Peugeot Boxer based M/H, it's an Elddiss though I doubt that matters, with a Euro VI engine. Checking my manual there's no oil spec listed just "consult a Peugeot dealer for the correct oil". So I called my local dealer, Marshalls of St Neots, and they tell me they use Castrol Magnatex and recommend any 5W30 fully synthetic oil.

 

Don't know if that helps you Ducatoites though. 8-)

[Robinhood]

ColinM50 - 2017-05-10 11:10 AM

 

Don't know if that helps you Ducatoites though. 8-)

 

...it doesn't; It's a different engine..... ;-)

[Derek Uzzell]

Robinhood - 2017-05-10 9:25 AM

 

Robinhood - 2017-05-09 10:19 PM

 

........ (albeit it dubs the Euro6 engined versions as MY 2014, which they weren't).

 

 

...which, in itself, only follows Fiat practice......

 

As far as obtaining the correct manual is concerned.....many people nowadays carry electronic devices capable of holding downloaded files.

 

The Fiat manual(s) including the correct Euro6 version are readily downloadable for offline access (in addition to being browsable online) from the Fiat Elum site, and are likely to be in the order of 20MB in size, not beyond the capacity of most tablets and smartphones.

 

http://aftersales.fiat.com/elum/Home.aspx?brand_code=77&id_language=2

 

Someone may want to suggest this option to the originator of the info.

 

According to the latest ATOC update, the complainant was advised that the correct Owner Handbook for Euro 6 Ducatos is "Print Number. 603.91.187 – 03/2017- 3 edition”. This may well be the case, but consulting the on-line elum database for “DUCATO BASE CAMPER” entries indicates that - for April and May 2017 vehicles - the Handbook recommended has the reference "Print Number. 603.91.341 – 03/2017- 1 edition”. From April 2017 through December 2016 the Handbook reference is given as ""Print Number. 603.91.187 – 03/2017- 3 edition”, and prior to December 2016 the Handbook reference is "Print No. 603.99.772 – 05/2015 1st Edition”.

 

This is academic as far as I’m concerned, as is the fact that many people could download a Ducato Handbook from elum (if they could identify the correct one) on to a mobile device.

 

When I buy a new vehicle I want the handbook provided with it to be appropriate to that vehicle and, if it is not, I’m not going to be happy to be directed to the internet and be told that I can find the appropriate handbook there. I want a ‘book’ and I want the right book.

 

Fiat has admitted to the ATOC complainant that the Owner Handbook provided with his Euro 6 Ducato-based motorhome is outdated (and does not apply to current Euro 6 Ducatos) and then refused to replace the outdated Handbook with the relevant one.

 

Where’s it going to end? If the motorhome had been delivered with an Owner Handbook for a Fiat “Doblo”, would that have been OK? Would Fiat have said “You can find the correct handbook on-line” or would they have replaced the Doblo handbook with a Ducato one?

[Robinhood]

I can't say I disagree, Derek......

 

.....but whilst continuing to harass Fiat (actually, probably the motorhome dealer) to provide me with the correct handbook (free of charge), on a practical level it would probably be useful to be able to refer to a downloaded copy of the correct documentation in the interim of any successful resolution.

 

( I speak as someone who had to chase up an English language version of my previous Ford Transit manual to replace the supplied German one, and in the interim relied on a downloaded English copy. In this case, my dealer supplied me with the correct manual after a short delay).

[Keith T]

Have to agree with you, Derek.,

I am about to take delivery of a new Autotrail PVC 610SE and whether or not you can downloaded the 'correct' handbook is neither here nor there. As an owner, I would expect to be in possession of the Correct one right from the start in paper (ie readable anywhere!) format. .

I would have thought that if not supplied and there is any problem, then FIAT are directly liable for costs!? All this 'Ok you can download it and read on some portable device' is not acceptable, as paper can always be read, electronic items are notable unreliable!

Trouble is so many places are taking the latter view, and even the NT handbook now refers you to the internet, most of us (well, certainly many, I suggest) are not in possession of always on-line devices, and indeed don't necessarily see this as a useful tool for full information....

 

I notice that one contributor earlier on, states that the new Euro 6 engine consumes 1/2 litre oil in 600 miles - this surely cant be correct? I have had various motorhomes over the past 25 years, always FIAT/.Peugeot, my latest one was Euro 4 I suspect (2007?) and never ever have I had to put in any oil between services, which were generally up to 6k miles apart on an annual service base. so is that really true, and does that mean that given we could cover around 1600 miles away per trip in France, I have to take a coupe of litres Oil with me??

Would be interested to hear the experience of other Euro 6 engines owners?

[euroserv]

I have had Euro6 appropriate handbooks supplied with Euro5 vehicles! This is a shocking mess and is the fault of the folks at the factory who pack the 'correct' regional documentation in the vehicle before it leaves. The dealer that registers the vehicle must make sure that the documents are correct and can ask Fiat for replacements with little difficulty.

 

The oil consumption issue is real and worrying. I can't comment on Euro6 yet because i still have not got any. More of that will follow later but we noticed wildly varying oil use on Euro5 vehicles from 2014 onwards. Some of the pre-facelift vans were using 2 litres in 6000 miles while others were more like 500ml per 6000 miles. We were told that this was normal and have gotten used to it now.The Euro4 engines used hardly any oil between services (which we did every 12500m). The 2015 Euro5 vehicles since the facelift have been absolutely fine though and while i can't see why they would be different; they are.

 

Our local dealer was told by Fiat to only fill the oil to the mid point between low and high on the dipstick. I would be wary of that because there have been some part number changes on the dipsticks and this suggests that they may have been shortened slightly so that they are not over-filled! I would say that anyone with a 2015 Euro5 or newer should fill to the maximum and earlier vehicle owners should experiment with the halfway method and see if the usage reduces.

 

My advice for those without an oil level indicator in the instrument display would be to check the oil once a month and after every journey of over 500 miles. We might have become used to not having to do this but it's good practice anyway.

[Bryan40]

As the original author of the articles now posted on the Auto-Trail Owners website I am amazed at some of the comments in the posts above.

 

If I am stuck on a campsite or aire without access to the internet or any mobile devices I want a Handbook with my vehicle to which I can refer with a degree of authority. I do not think that it is a matter of the vehicle handbook containing errors it is a matter of a handbook some 2 years out of date being supplied with a 2017 vehicle. How many other changes/differences are there between these two publications? I spoke with my dealer who also confirmed that 2017 Swift motorhomes were coming through to his dealership with the same outdated handbook.

 

It was actually me that stated the new Euro 6 engines consumes a half litre of oil every 600 miles. This was not a figure that I plucked out of the air but a warning from an engineer at a Fiat Professional dealership. He claimed that they had had a good number of Euro 6 Ducatos in for engine replacements due to ignoring regular dip stick checks - no doubt all white van men. It was that that set me off trying to purchase top-up oil for a forthcoming trip and led to all the hassle with Fiat. Having this morning visited another Fiat Professional dealership who checked my dashboard lighting (that's another story) I asked them which oil they would use in a 2017 Euro 6 engine and they showed me a can of 05W-30 Petronas oil with yet another specification - not even the S1 in my out of date handbook. In conjunction with the Service Manager we eventually came to an agreement that it should have been the 0W-30 WR Forward DS1 oil as I already knew. This will be something I will watch when I come to an oil change in order to ensure that the right - but more expensive - oil is used.

 

I think this is a salutary warning to all of us who with experience of the previous Ducato engines did not regularly check their engine oil that they must turn over a new leaf otherwise or be prepared for costly repairs to seized engines.

 

[Purclewan]

Appreciate this is a fairly old thread but many thanks for those who took the trouble to post and explain:-

 

a) The Handbook problem and

b) The issue around using the correct oil.

 

This has been a great help to me as I was totally confused by what I was reading in my handbook (The wrong one for my brand new Swift 664 Escape) and what I was being told about the correct oil to use for euro 6 engines.

 

My Van does seem to be using oil at a faster rate than I expected but I have been assured that this is partly down to the oil being VERY thin and unlike the older oils I am used to, does not burn in the engine but evaporates.

 

I would also like to thank the guys at Greysparts.co.uk who are extremely helpful and as mentioned by others do stock the correct oil at a very good price.

 

Thanks again to everyone.

 

 

[Tracker]

Even Euro 6 isn't Euro 6 any more as Euro 6a, 6b, 6c and 6d are upon us and I wonder whether these ever changing ever more restrictive controls mean that the recommended oil specification changes too every time Euro 6 moves up another notch?

 

Long gone it seems are the days when we just changed the oil when it got a bit black and stood the 'old' oil in a can for a few weeks to let the black settle then reused the clear 'clean' oil!

[mikebeaches]

 

 

I have a 2016 Euro 5+ X290 Ducato-based pvc, and have been shocked and somewhat alarmed by the high oil consumption.

 

This thread has gone a significant way to reassure me that it isn't some sort of major engine fault, but a new reality.

 

As observed by others, our previous Euro 4 Ducato didn't appear to burn / consume any significant amount of oil between services. And exactly the same for the rather older Ducato we had before that.

 

I've also had the challenge of buying the correct oil too...

 

But thanks for all the useful info that's been posted.

[Max Speed]

I have received info from a reliable "expert" some time ago in the motor trade who quotes as follows:- Euro 5 was 5w 30 full synthetic to C3 spec low ash & Euro 6 spec current is 5w 30 full synthetic C4 spec lower ash! this is to meet current emissions spec.

There is however , some mutterings from the natives re the lubrication qualities of C4 spec !! and wether it will go the long service intervals,(some are quoting 18000 miles!! ,I will still do oil & filter changes at 5000 mile intervals for peace of mind.

 

[aandy]

Tracker - 2018-06-15 4:20 PM

 

 

Long gone it seems are the days when we just changed the oil when it got a bit black and stood the 'old' oil in a can for a few weeks to let the black settle then reused the clear 'clean' oil!

 

 

I thought I was tight, but even I've never gone that far. ;-)

[Bryan40]

I posted the issues I had with incorrect info in the Fiat handbook regarding engine oil specification in May last year. After much battling with Fiat they agreed to provide me with a 2017 handbook in replacement to the 2015 one supplied with a 2017 vehicle. I sourced a 2 litre supply of WR Forward online from a Fiat dealership at a very good price including p&p. Found after a Google search!!

 

Interestingly I took my 'van for a chassis service recently and was discussing all the recalls and problems that appeared to be occurring with the Euro 6 engine.. I was informed that if a warranty claim was made in relation to the engine Fiat were now demanding a sample of the engine oil from the sump and testing this to establish that the correct oil had been used. If they determined that it had not they were rejecting the warranty claim and leaving it to the owner to pay the costs of any repair. Hopefully readers of this forum will not be caught out.

 

Bryan

[Tracker]

aandy - 2018-06-15 6:04 PM

 

Tracker - 2018-06-15 4:20 PM

 

 

Long gone it seems are the days when we just changed the oil when it got a bit black and stood the 'old' oil in a can for a few weeks to let the black settle then reused the clear 'clean' oil!

 

 

I thought I was tight, but even I've never gone that far. ;-)

 

In years gone by if you bought cheap engine oil that is all it was, recycled used engine oil, and if you looked in the bottom of the (usually black - for a very good reason!) containers it came in you could often find some black sludge to prove it, but no engine ever failed because it was the 'wrong' oil!

Progress eh?

[artheytrate]

My 2017 Globecar PVC as used less than .5 of a litre in 9,000 miles, including 2 trips to Benidorm.

 

John.

[Tracker]

We've had a few Boxer and Ducato vans, all Euro4 or earlier over the years, 2.0, 2.2, 2.3, and NONE of them ever burned any significant volumes of oil over many thousands of miles.

Progress eh?

[Derek Uzzell]

According to the relevant Fiat Ducato Owner Handbooks, the recommended engine-oil for Ducato X290 models with ‘Euro 5+’ motors is

 

SELENIA WR P.E. SAE 5W-30 ACEA C2 Classification FIAT 9.55535-S1

 

For Ducato X290 models with Euro 6 motors the recommended engine-oil is

 

SELENIA WR FORWARD. SAE 0W-30 ACEA C2 Classification FIAT 9.55535-DS1

 

As will be seen from the following links

 

http://www.selenia.com/en/dettaglio-prodotto.asp?code=1412

 

http://www.selenia.com/en/dettaglio-prodotto.asp?code=1388

 

both of those oils are fully-synthetic lubricants.

 

Regarding Bryan’s comment

 

“I was informed that if a warranty claim was made in relation to the engine Fiat were now demanding a sample of the engine oil from the sump and testing this to establish that the correct oil had been used. If they determined that it had not they were rejecting the warranty claim and leaving it to the owner to pay the costs of any repair.”

 

I was told the same thing some while ago by a Fiat Professional (FP) service manager. As I understand it, the quibble by Fiat would relate to an oil having been used that did not meet the appropriate Fiat Classification, rather the specific SELENIA oil not having been chosen. So (assuming that the information on the following link is correct!) the oils listed on the link SHOULD be acceptable to Fiat if used for a Ducato with a Euro 6 motor.

 

https://www.opieoils.co.uk/c-3544-fiat-955535-ds1-engine-oil.aspx

 

The service manager instanced a non-FP garage servicing a Ducato and using an oil that, according to the oil’s manufacturer’s applicability chart, was suitable for a Ducato and should have conformed to the Fiat Classification - except the chart was wrong! So there is an incentive for the appropriate SELENIA oil to be chosen rather than a ‘look-alike’ and also that servicing invoices clearly and accurately define the oil that was put in. Similarly, if DIY-servicing is to be carried out, that evidence is retained of the lubricants and parts employed.

 

’Thin’ oils with a 0W specification are far from new. This 2007 discussion refers to it

 

https://community.cartalk.com/t/whats-the-rate-of-evaporation-loss-of-a-full-synthetic-engine-oil/6273

 

and I’d agree with the comment that engine oil (whatever its viscosity) will not evapoarate - though it can certainly be burnt!

 

My 2015 Ducato’s oil consumption is minimal, but I can happily accept that other Ducatos of similar vintage will differ.

 

(In the late 1980s I owned a VW Golf GTi 16V car and the engine oil recommended by Golf GTi specialists was Mobil 1 that was fully-synthetic and low viscosity. There had been complaints that the GTi 16-valve motor had an unpredictable (sometimes frightenly high) oil consumption, but mine never needed topping up between oil-changes. I phoned GTi Engineering at Silverstone and said “What’s this high oil-usage scaremongering about? I’m using ’thin’ Mobil 1 oil and my car’s motor uses no oil.” The reply was “You aren’t driving it hard enough”. I felt quite humiliated...)

 

 

[Bryan40]

In response to Derek's post above. I opened the link and looked at the prices quoted for those oils. Rather interestingly I sourced the recommended Selena WR Forward oil in a 2 litre can from the Fiat Professional dealer at the same price, including P&P as that quoted for a 1 litre can on that link, admittedly prices may well have increased but doubled??

Bryan

[Derek Uzzell]

Bryan40 - 2018-06-16 10:52 AM

 

In response to Derek's post above. I opened the link and looked at the prices quoted for those oils. Rather interestingly I sourced the recommended Selena WR Forward oil in a 2 litre can from the Fiat Professional dealer at the same price, including P&P as that quoted for a 1 litre can on that link...

 

Bryan

 

Then you were very fortunate. If you look at on-line asking-prices for two litres of SELENIA WR FORWARD 0W-30 I’m sure you’ll find that the prices won’t be dramatically cheaper than those on the link I provided once VAT and carriage are factored in.

 

Referring to my Ducato’s Fiat Professional service-invoice (dated March 2017) the price of the SELENIA 5W-30 oil came to £12.40 per litre including VAT.