Moby_the_magic_bus Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 Wise Sages of the board I respectfully request your assistance as I touched the electrics on my campervan and broke it. I like fixing things and all I wanted to do was to tidy up my 12V wiring with a fuse board and then subsequently added a split charge relay. I have clearly put something back incorrectly and have no idea what. I own a multimeter and would love to learn how to use it - YouTube videos on the subject are just not working in my situation. I could take the camper to the garage but where is the fun in that? I really wanted to tackle this myself - with your help of course. 2005 Autocruise Sarasota - Peugeot Boxer 350 2.8 XLWB HDI Sargent EC200 - Omnistep - http://www.motts.org/Omnistep.htm Concept Kel Alarm - http://www.keenelectronics.co.uk/conceptinstallation.html Current issue - 1. Omnistep not working since I meddled with the electrics. 2. EC200 currently reading 0V for vehicle battery (Vehicle & Leisure are fully charged. Leisure battery is reading 11.3V on EC200 and 13.7V on the Solar panel. Internal lights, pump working fine) 3. New split charge relay (Voltage sense) - currently unconnected as when I did connect it the vehicle battery reading on the EC200 was 2.4V and the relay constantly clicked on and off. I just tried to start the engine with the 2 batteries connected and it turned over with a weakened battery but wouldn't start. When I disconnected it the engine started. This is what it looked like before I got my grubby fingers on it - (Quite an elaborate cookie acceptance on the Flickr photo site but once in you can see all the photos I have posted by clicking on the left/right arrows) - To tidy up the wires I added a fuse board - I removed a Ryder 30 Amp Super Smart Combi as it was looped at one end and the wire cut at the other end. The earth went to the chassis and positive directly to the vehicle battery. -https://www.flickr.com/photos/75202971@N00/51052513841/in/dateposted/ I should just say at this point that everything was working fine up until I started on the electrics. So where to begin? The first question is what have I done to the Omnistep. A relay - https://i.pinimg.com/564x/56/1d/15/561d150dabc933fd9f8401b0149daf5f.jpg My original relay setup - If I remove the relay fuse the light showing a broken circuit is not coming on. Is this normal for a relay? I'm not so sure. I have a video of the situation if you think it will help. Otherwise I stand ready with my multimeter. The second question is how does my EC200 measure the vehicle battery. The vehicle battery has a large plate on the positive terminal with multiple heavy duty fuses. The only wire I removed was connected to the Ryder 30amp Combi and this doesn't appear to do anything. And the third question I have for you is does an EC200 require a switch charge relay or is there one 'built in'. I'll ask you how to fit one later after I get my steps working. Thank you, most sincerely, for your time. Gaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebishbus Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 Welcome To the forum Gaz. Unfortunately I think you will be very lucky if anyone on the forum will be able to help you. It needs someone to look at it and trace the wiring I think . All the best of luck with it though. Brian B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthur49 Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 If everything was working fine before you started fiddling what was the purpose of the split charge relay you added? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 Hi, 1. Omnistep. From posted diagram, this is powered from vehicle battery via Fuse 4 (20A). This fuse is shown on the diagram above the +ve terminal of the vehicle battery. As to actual fuse location, you will have to seek out the block of 4 fuses, including spare. Check this fuse, either by substitution, or with multimeter. To check with multimeter put black test lead into COM socket, red lead into V/Ohms socket. Select select buzzer, or lowest Ohms (Omega) range. Switch meter ON, and touch prods together. According to selection, you should hear buzzer, or read a low resistance value less than 1 Ohm. Now with fuse removed apply one prod to each blade. Result should be similar to just prods. To build confidence test coin, paper clip. or metal cutlery between prods. 2. If fuse was faulty replacing it should restore vehicle battery reading on EC200. 3. Habitation (Leisure) battery reading of 11.3V on EC200 is too low. Check Fuse 3 (20A) adjacent to vehicle battery fuse, it may be that light s pump are only working on solar power, but that should be obvious. Another possible cause for the low reading could be poor calibration of the EC200. 4. EC200 does not need a separate split charge relay. It already has one. See on diagram below "E" of AUTOCRUISE. If I remember correctly, one of the relays is split charge, and the other is for the fridge. 5. Connection to vehcle battery. The drawing shows a brown wire connecting to the vehicle battery positive. There will have to be a connection to supply the split charge connection, and the fridge 12V element. There should also be a negative connection between the two batteries, or at least from habitation negative to chassis. 6. To use multimeter to measure voltage insert leads black to COM, and red to V. Select DC, and voltage range higher than expected, eg 20V. Switch on, and apply prods. Try with a torch or a remote control battery. Should read about 1,5V for alkaline, or 1,25 for NiMH. Always check battery voltage directly across terminals. For safety restore meter range to maximum voltage after use, and switch off. 7. Please post your findings on this forum. 8. The indicator LED under a fuse, as on your relay will only illuminate if a load is connected. The circuit for your step will not be connected until you press the step switch, so no LED. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moby_the_magic_bus Posted March 21, 2021 Author Share Posted March 21, 2021 What great people you are, thank you. I'm going to digest your feedback and I will return. Happy Sunday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moby_the_magic_bus Posted March 21, 2021 Author Share Posted March 21, 2021 Thanks for the response Brian. My post had two purposes really. The first to see if anyone could see something obvious as I have only done a straight swap - but clearly not that 'straight'. I also want to keep learning as I really enjoy working on my van and the first result was using my multimeter properly for the first time ever. Cheers. Gaz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moby_the_magic_bus Posted March 21, 2021 Author Share Posted March 21, 2021 arthur49 - 2021-03-20 7:12 PM If everything was working fine before you started fiddling what was the purpose of the split charge relay you added? You're not wrong Arthur, why indeed! Having watched so many YouTube videos on 12v electrics everyone seemed to have a nice look switch relay. All I could see on my van was a curiously connected Ryder Super Smart Combi. Although it appeared to be disconnected I assumed (incorrectly) it must be doing something as the leisure battery was charging. Only after buying a kit and installing it did I start to question if I already had one built in to the EC200 which has now been confirmed by Alan. On a positive note though, should I ever build my own camper I will have a split relay kit ready to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moby_the_magic_bus Posted March 21, 2021 Author Share Posted March 21, 2021 Hi Alan, what an answer! Thank you. I haven't got too far yet as I thought the 4 fuses might be on the battery terminal and the battery is painful to get out. Now it is out I'm giving it a charge so can't test anything until I put it back. This photo shows 3 of the fuses 20 / 15 / 20 (bottom of picture) that seem to fit the bill but with no spare that I can see. - I used my multimeter for the first time ever so thank you for that. I checked the left side 20A and consistently got a reading of 1 so momentarily I had my eureka moment. Checking the other fuses and brand new ones the meter gave some fairly odd readings with a lot of jumping around but that fuse consistently gave a 1 so I'm hoping that is the issue. I changed them all for overkill. I will get back to you with the next instalment as soon as my power is restored. Many Thanks Gaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
granddad Posted March 21, 2021 Share Posted March 21, 2021 his might help you https://youtu.be/k2LgvmWNVwc?t=2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted March 21, 2021 Share Posted March 21, 2021 Hi Gaz, Yes, the three fuses at the bottom of the picture are most probably include the starter battery fuse. I can see three taped wires connected to the starter battery positive clamping bolt. This cable form can be traced on your photo until close to the fuses. I conjecture that the other side of the fuses are connected to the habitation electrics via the 3 way connector. Two of the fuses will fit for the starter battery, and fridge supplies, but it does not seem correct for the habitation battery fuse, which should be close to the habitation battery in order to keep the length of unfused cable to a minimum. The fuses on the battery terminal fusebox are mainly related to the base vehicle. The orange (150A) Mega fuse, Fiat F70, on the left of picture (vehicle RHS) is for the engine bay fusebox. Blow that and you are not going anywhere! The engine bay fuse box then supplies the LH cab fusebox. The white (80A) Midi fuse, Fiat F71, supplies the RH cab fusebox for optional items i.e. electric mirrors and demisting and several other less common options. The brown (70A) fuse, Fiat F73 is designated as converters fuse. All too often it is neglected. The pink (125A) midi fuse, Fiat F72, is for the alternator. It is not easy to remove the battery, and the fusebox location will not help. My PVC has an aftermarket alarm in a similar location. I had to unbolt the alarm unit, before replacing the battery. Can you wedge a piece of wood in place, so as to be able to slide the battery into position. Your battery positive fusebox seems to have lost its cover. All those exposed live connections and fuses are normally concealed under a clip on cover. If possible the space between the engine timing belt cover, and the engine mounting should be kept clear. Anyone changing the timing belt, will need this space for access. At the risk of preaching to the converted, when working on either battery, always disconnect the battery negative first, and reconnect last. For information, modern multimeters are very sensitive, and can give an apparently normal voltage through a relatively high resistance (faulty connection). Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 Moby_the_magic_bus - 2021-03-21 1:31 PM ...All I could see on my van was a curiously connected Ryder Super Smart Combi. Although it appeared to be disconnected I assumed (incorrectly) it must be doing something as the leisure battery was charging... Details of the Ryder product are here http://www.rydertowing.co.uk/downloads/instructions/TF1170-3.pdf It’s not what one might anticipate Autocruise would have installed as original equipment in a 2005 “Sarasota” model, so it’s probably an add-on that fitted by a previous owner (possibly because the motorhome was used for towing). Logically, you should return your motorhome’s electrical system to the working-OK condition it was in before you began to modify it and - once that was done - make improvements methodically so that, if an alteration causes a problem, the culprit will be known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moby_the_magic_bus Posted March 22, 2021 Author Share Posted March 22, 2021 granddad - 2021-03-21 5:16 PM his might help you https://youtu.be/k2LgvmWNVwc?t=2 Thanks Grandad. It's not so much how to use it more what to use it on. I'm not sure what wires or fuses I need to check. The wiring diagram has so many interconnecting wires that I find it difficult to follow but once I'm told what to look for I'm all over it. Again, thanks for your feedback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moby_the_magic_bus Posted March 22, 2021 Author Share Posted March 22, 2021 Derek Uzzell - 2021-03-22 8:58 AM Moby_the_magic_bus - 2021-03-21 1:31 PM ...All I could see on my van was a curiously connected Ryder Super Smart Combi. Although it appeared to be disconnected I assumed (incorrectly) it must be doing something as the leisure battery was charging... Details of the Ryder product are here http://www.rydertowing.co.uk/downloads/instructions/TF1170-3.pdf It’s not what one might anticipate Autocruise would have installed as original equipment in a 2005 “Sarasota” model, so it’s probably an add-on that fitted by a previous owner (possibly because the motorhome was used for towing). Logically, you should return your motorhome’s electrical system to the working-OK condition it was in before you began to modify it and - once that was done - make improvements methodically so that, if an alteration causes a problem, the culprit will be known. Totally agree with you there Derek. Before I realised that the power must go through the EC200 to get the reading from the vehicle battery, which then made me think that it possibly had a switch relay built in, I thought that either the previous owner had installed the wrong switch relay or, as you say, they had previously had a trailer. I get your comment re. putting back the original set up but I think I'm too far gone for that. As you can see from the photos I recorded everything and tested it all along the way. Something happened right at the end when the step just stopped working so I'm hoping that it is a fuse issue - I just had no idea what fuse but now I've had some feedback I feel I'm getting closer. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moby_the_magic_bus Posted March 22, 2021 Author Share Posted March 22, 2021 Alanb - 2021-03-21 7:44 PM Hi Gaz, Yes, the three fuses at the bottom of the picture are most probably include the starter battery fuse. Alan Good Morning Alan, I was just telling my partner that I would like to say, after weeks of trying, that I have finally fixed the van but the reality is that Alan fixed the van. Vehicle battery reading 12.5 V on the EC200 and although I haven't untied the wire that is holding the steps up the motor is working again! It was the fuse what won it. I haven't reconnected the leisure battery as it's on charge but I will report back as soon as I do. What a great way to start the week. You are a diamond. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moby_the_magic_bus Posted March 22, 2021 Author Share Posted March 22, 2021 Hi Alan, Latest update. The Omnistep is gliding away again perfectly ... now that I have loosened off the bolts that I had done up too tightly. The fully charged Leisure battery is reading 11.7V but it is fluctuating wildly + / - 1V and switching from 'Good' to 'Fair' whilst doing so. The solar control panel is reading 13.5V on the leisure battery. It is a very sunny day (whoop, whoop!) today so I'm wondering if this could be the cause of the fluctuating battery reading? I've just never seen it before. I sincerely appreciate your assistance. Gaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 Gaz, I am pleased that you have got your step working. Fluctuating voltages on a battery do not sound good, but could be a charger problem. Is the 11.7V reading for your habitation (leisure) battery taken with your multimeter directly across the battery terminals, or from the EC200 display? 11.7V indicates a flat battery. As I previously suggested, the third fuse in the under bonnet holder is not in the correct location to be a habitation battery fuse. Perhaps it is associated with the Ryder unit? Some fuse pulling and voltage readings could confirm this. However on your photo of the habitation battery, there is a single 20A fuse in a white holder, with black wires, taped to the battery top. What is this for? One of the other two fuses in the twin holder could be the main habitation battery fuse, but without the ability to trace and check wire colours, this is just speculation. There is also an unfused red wire running along the corner of the battery, under the twin blade fuses. Also in photo is an white/orange wire, paired with a brown wire. Sargent use white/orange as well as other colours for earth connections. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moby_the_magic_bus Posted March 22, 2021 Author Share Posted March 22, 2021 Thanks Alan. I'm going to go back through what you have said in the morning. I've been staring at this for weeks and now you have already given me a lot of insight I need to go and stare at it again. I do enjoy it. Latest update: Leisure reading 9.6V - nothing has been on. It is no longer fluctuating. I turned on the EC200 cp, tried the internal lights and they didn't work. I thought I heard a click when I did it. I checked the fuses in the habitation battery - all fine. I'm thinking it might have been from the EC200 unit. It was dark so I'll check again in the morning. The Ryder had a wire running to the vehicle battery and it was attached to one of the large fuses on the positive terminal. It had an inline fuse at the vehicle battery end and the earth went to the chassis. Thanks again. Gaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 Moby_the_magic_bus - 2021-03-22 7:22 PM Latest update: Leisure reading 9.6V - nothing has been on. It is no longer fluctuating. At 9.6 volts your leisure battery is toast! The click you heard was the EC200 turning off due to low voltage. And that would also explain your cycling voltage as I would guess the solar panel was trying to charge it and then tripping out. Replace the leisure battery and try again. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moby_the_magic_bus Posted March 23, 2021 Author Share Posted March 23, 2021 Evening all. I had to do some work today but I did get round to trying another battery, fortunately I had a new one. It's fully charged (as was the last one) and reading 12.5V so certainly looking better so far. I'm not going to touch anything else tonight so will check the charge in the morning. Many Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moby_the_magic_bus Posted March 27, 2021 Author Share Posted March 27, 2021 Hi Alan, Happy Saturday. I'm not quite sure I achieved too much today but I had an interesting time doing it. I'm not expecting anything but I did want to keep you in the loop as you have been so helpful. This is the bottom view of the 3 fuses and 2 relays. I confess I didn't get out my multimeter as I need to deconstruct the whole thing in my head to figure out what I'm testing for. Looking at the wiring diagram I think my fuses are the wrong way round as I have 20 / 15 / 20 and it should be 20 / 20 / 15. What I did find out was that the middle fuse connects to the EC200 display as when pulled I do not get the message 'Engine Started' System Disabled'. Nothing appeared to have any affect on the fridge. With the engine running I get the 12V light on the fridge with both the outside fuses removed. Re. the white fuse holder taped to the habitation battery on the old set up. This was connected to the alarm relay which is now connected to the fuse board. I'm going back to it tomorrow for another think as I have just re-read some other points you raised. Cheers Gaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 Gaz, As requested, last week I was concentrating on your step, so perhaps did not pay adequate attention to the photograph of the underside of the fuses. That particular view makes it obvious that it is a combination mounting for three fuses and two relays. Looking again at the four way fuse holder and adjacent two relays, while paying particular attention to the wire colours. The wire colours appear to be an exact fit. Both relays have a blue wire to the coil, which will be D+, or alternator field. The relays also share a common unfused connection from the vehicle battery positive, brown wire. (Not good practice, the fuse should be as close as possible to the battery terminal.) The left hand relay on the drawing has its NO connection (87) connected to fuse 2. From fuse 2 the colour is red/yellow. This wire connects to the fridge, and also controls the step auto retraction. The right hand relay on the drawing connects in a similar manner to fuse 3, where the colour changes to brown/blue, which is fused habitation (leisure) battery, so this is as labelled, the split charge relay. This takes us to the two fuses at the bottom of your (leisure) battery photo. The 15A fuse being for the (leisure) battery general load, and the 20A fuse with red wire bing for the eberspacher, which should be connected directly to the battery, not via the EC200. According to drawing, both fuses should be 20A. I think that your engine started signal will be taken from the red/yellow wire, as this is controlled via a relay which is operated by D+. I hope that some of the above helps. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moby_the_magic_bus Posted March 31, 2021 Author Share Posted March 31, 2021 You're 'the boss' Alan and a great help as always. Apologies for the delay in responding, I've had non-van related issues to deal with. Just getting ready for the MOT so I'll have my head back under the bonnet soon. Cheers. Gaz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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