Pete-B Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 At present I've got two 6Kg calor Lite bottles and a Gas-it auto changeover valve and two Gas-it rubber pigtails. I was thinking of upgrading to stainless steel pigtails I'd thought of using 750mm ones because stainless steel pipes are not as flexible as rubber and I didn't want to kink them! I've just now seen a posting on another forum where it states that 450mm is the maximum length that can be used. Is this correct or just a myth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 If 450mm is the max length allowed (by whom?) then why do several manufacturers offer 750mm, or even longer, hoses? I have two 13kg Calor Propane cylinders connected to a Gaslow manual changeover valve with a pair of 750mm hoses as shorter hoses will not bend tightly enough to connect within the space of the gas locker. No-one has ever told me I cannot do it! Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete-B Posted November 15, 2013 Author Share Posted November 15, 2013 Hope you're right Keith. It was a Caravan forum I read it on and it stated they're not allowed in caravans only in motorhomes with slide out trays? Like you I don't see what the problem would be in using 750mm pigtaills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 ....AFAIK BS EN 1949 dictates that hoses should not be longer than 450mm. I would surmise that use of longer hoses would not be illegal, but would not meet the standard (and would not be supplied by a manufacturer hoping to meet the standard as part of a new vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 This Calor document http://hullcalorgas.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Using-calor-gas-safely-caravan.pdf contains the statement "For Touring Caravans and Motor Homes, in 2003 BS EN 1949 was introduced which requires the hose between the cylinder and regulator to be no longer than 450mm." However, I believe you are correct that a 750mm length is 'allowed' when the a leisure-vehicle carries its gas-bottle(s) on a slide-out tray. The expectation within the standard is plainly that 'rubber' gas hoses will be used, but (as you rightly say) the type of stainless-steel-core hoses marketed by Gaslow have less flexibilty. If it's plain that swapping to 450mm-long stainless-steel hoses would be impracticable, or would unduly stress the stainless-steel hoses, you've got two choices - continue to use rubber hoses, or fit longer stainless-steel ones. It would be extraordinarly rash to fit 450mm stainless-steel gas hoses just to conform to a standard if it were apparent that doing so would potentially result in damage to the hoses. Just fit the 750mm hoses (if you believe it's worthwhile) and keep away fronm caravan forums in future. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete-B Posted November 18, 2013 Author Share Posted November 18, 2013 I wonder if someone else could give me a definitive answer on this question? As I said in my original posting I'm changing over from rubber to stainless steel pigtails for my two calor-lite gas bottles to connect to the auto-changeover valve. Someone has now told me the pipes should have non return valves fitted but someone else said no it's not necessary, who's right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 Pete-B - 2013-11-18 9:59 AM I wonder if someone else could give me a definitive answer on this question? As I said in my original posting I'm changing over from rubber to stainless steel pigtails for my two calor-lite gas bottles to connect to the auto-changeover valve. Someone has now told me the pipes should have non return valves fitted but someone else said no it's not necessary, who's right? If your motorhome has a gas system that allows its gas-fuelled heater to be legally operated throughout the EU while the motorhome is being driven (and that probably means a system that includes a Truma 'SecuMotion'-type regulator and matching special pigtails), then replacing the special Truma pigtails would prevent the heater being legally operated en route throughout the EU. If your motohome does not have such a system, you could fit pigtails with or without a non-return valve. The potential advantage of a non-return valve is that it also provides an excess flow cut-off capability, so, if the pigtail were badly damaged (eg. in a road accident) the valve would shut off the gas supply from the bottle. But you don't HAVE to fit pigtails with non-return/excess-flow valves if you don't want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 Pete-B - 2013-11-18 9:59 AM I wonder if someone else could give me a definitive answer on this question? As I said in my original posting I'm changing over from rubber to stainless steel pigtails for my two calor-lite gas bottles to connect to the auto-changeover valve. Someone has now told me the pipes should have non return valves fitted but someone else said no it's not necessary, who's right? Pete, Does your auto-changeover valve not already have non return valves fitted? My Gaslow manual changeover valve certainly does. Can you check the spec for yours or possibly ask the dealer you bought it from. Keith. PS A clue is if the spec says you can change an empty cylinder whilst still using the full cylinder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 Keithl - 2013-11-18 12:17 PM Pete-B - 2013-11-18 9:59 AM I wonder if someone else could give me a definitive answer on this question? As I said in my original posting I'm changing over from rubber to stainless steel pigtails for my two calor-lite gas bottles to connect to the auto-changeover valve. Someone has now told me the pipes should have non return valves fitted but someone else said no it's not necessary, who's right? Pete, Does your auto-changeover valve not already have non return valves fitted? My Gaslow manual changeover valve certainly does. Can you check the spec for yours or possibly ask the dealer you bought it from. Keith. PS A clue is if the spec says you can change an empty cylinder whilst still using the full cylinder. Presumably the "someone" who told Pete-B that pigtails with non-return valves were obligatory had safety in mind and took no account of whether or not a motorhome was fitted with a gas-bottle change-over device. Even when a change-over device has non-return valves (and one would logically expect all such devices to have them), those valves will not prevent a major gas leak occurring if a pigtail splits (eg. as the result of a road accident) anywhere between where the pigtail connects to the gas-bottle and where it connects to the change-over device. If a gas-bottle has gas in it, its outlet-valve is open and the pigtail splits, gas will whoosh out. Such a leakage will only be prevented if a pigtail has a non-return/excess-flow valve at its gas-bottle end. (Let's not go down the "Gas-bottles should always be turned off before a motorhome is driven" road. :-( :-( ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 I wonder if there may be some confusion? From the description, it seems that the item being referred to is a rupture protection valve, and not a non-return valve. That is to say, a valve designed to cut off the gas flow if the high pressure pigtail is damaged. This valve is built into into the cylinder connector itself. If the original pigtails incorporate a green push button at the cylinder end, that has to be momentarily held down to allow gas to flow TO the regulator, then, as Derek says, there will be further protection incorporated into the gas regulator. This is now a crash sensor, which cuts the gas flow on impact (that Truma call "MonoControl CS" for single cylinders, or "DuoControl CS" for twin cylinders), but was previously a "DriveSafe" regulator, that cut off the low pressure gas FROM the regulator if excessive flow occurred, on the assumption that an excess flow indicated a leak. With these installations, maintaining the cylinder gas cock open while driving is permissible in those European states where the law otherwise requires the cock to be closed. If the OP's installation is Truma DriveSafe, or has the Mono/DuoControl CS regulator, it must also have rupture protected pigtails if the van will be driven outside UK with the gas cocks open. In UK, although the general advice is to turn gas off at the cylinder while driving, AFAIK, there is no legal obligation to do so. However, all cross channel operators require all gas cocks to be closed for the duration of the crossing, as a condition of carriage, irrespective of whatever type of regulator may be fitted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 Brian Kirby - 2013-11-18 4:08 PM I wonder if there may be some confusion? From the description, it seems that the item being referred to is a rupture protection valve, and not a non-return valve. That is to say, a valve designed to cut off the gas flow if the high pressure pigtail is damaged. This valve is built into into the cylinder connector itself... Pete-B's motorhome is curently fitted with Gas-it 'rubber' pigtails and he was planning to fit stainless-steel pigtails instead. Ignoring the specialised Truma 'green button' pigtails, two varieties of gas pigtail are available - one has a straight-through (S/T) inlet connector and the other has an inlet connector that incorporates a non-return (N/R) valve. The N/R valve will also close if excess gas-flow is detected. Examples of N/R and S/T pigtails are shown here http://www.bes.co.uk/products/063.asp http://www.bes.co.uk/products/067.asp It's probable that the Gas-it pigtails are S/T type and that the stainless-steel ones are too. I've (obviously) no real clue as to what Pete-B's "someone" had in mind when he mentioned that pigtails with non-return valves needed to be fitted. But such things are available and the valve should provide protection if a pigtail is ruptured. However, as Pete-B's current gas system includes pigtails that (very probably) don't have N/R valves, there's no requirement for him to fit N/R-type pigtails as replacements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete-B Posted November 18, 2013 Author Share Posted November 18, 2013 In reply to some excellent responses to my query-and thank you for those- perhaps I didn't give the full picture and I'm sorry for that, but here goes. The van is a 2012 Bessie which originally came with one 6Kg bottle. The Truma pigtail did indeed,( has Stalwart guessed, ) have the green push button valve situated at the bottle end, there is also green push button on the regulator. I replaced the original bottle with two 6Kg Calor Lites, I then fitted a Gas-it auto changeover valve which came with two rubber pigtails, I'm not sure if they have NR valves fitted, I vaguely remember some talk of it but not sure. I now think it's probably a good idea to finish the job off and replace the rubber pipes with stainless steel. It should then be, probably, a fit and forget for some years to come, apart from bottle changes. Plus also it will be a good basic kit if, I decide in the future, to go refillable. The hoses I'm looking at are on the Gas Equipment Direct web site, the pipes are made by Continental who I'm told supply Gaslow but these are a fraction of the price. The other reason I ask this question is, the SS quick release (with hand wheel) don't have NR valves but the ones without the wheel do. This is not really a concern, I mean, how often do you change bottles (not very often in our case) and I don't really mind getting the spanner out. Oh and the price of both types are about the same. Thanks again for the advice, much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 The gas-supply factory-installed in your 2012 Bessacarr included a Truma “SecuMotion” system comprising a special regulator and a special pigtail. Secumotion is designed and approved to allow a vehicle with a suitable gas-fuelled heater to have that heater operating legally while the vehicle is being driven in any EU country. But the special regulaor AND the special pigtail(s) need to be fitted for conformity. As far as I’m aware, adding the Gas-it auto-change-over would not have compromised the ‘legality’ of your original SecuMotion system. (Truma markets its own “Duo Comfort” device designed to fit directly to a SecuMotion regulator, but I don’t believe it’s obligatory to use Duo Comfort to maintain ‘legality’.) However, replacing the special Truma pigtail with the Gas-it rubber ones will have compromised the ‘legality’ of the SecuMotion system. Even if the Gas-it pigtails have non-return/excess-flow valves, or the stainless-steel pigtails you are considering fitting have non-return/excess-flow valves, the result will not be a 'full house' SecuMotion system, despite the special Truma regulator being present. “Secumotion” is a combination of the special Truma regulator and the special Truma pigtail(s) – if you replace either, the result is no longer a SecuMotion system and ‘driving with the gas-heater on’ pan-EU legality will be lost. (It may be that the Gaslow-marketed stainless-steel pigtails are provided by Continental http://www.continentalproduct.co.uk/ as you were told, but it’s evident from photos of SS pigtails fitted with hand-wheels that the Continental pigtail’s black hand-wheel differs in design to the red hand-wheel of a Gaslow pigtail. Is one superior to the other - who knows?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 The only reason I can think of for having NR valves incorporated into the pigtails, would be if the auto-changeover valve does not itself incorporate an NR function to the non-service cylinder. However, I believe most, if not all, such valves supplied for leisure vehicle use incorporate this facility. An auto-changeover valve supplied for static installation may not. I don't know, but it would probably be worth checking the credentials of valve you have. My impression is that NR are relevant in static installations (buildings etc), where multi cylinders connect to a manifold. AFAIK, they aren't generally relevant to mobile, "camping" type, installations. Legality, as I understand it, is not relevant to UK use, but it is (broadly) outside UK. If you prefer to travel with the cylinder gas cocks closed, you will be "legal" wherever you travel. However, as the Truma Drive/Safe kit is Type Approved and tested, only the Truma components will, as Derek says, meet the legal standard for use with cylinder cocks open outside UK. For most of us, I guess the main gas appliance that would benefit from an "on-demand" gas supply while travelling, would be an AES fridge, that would switch automatically to gas whenever the engine was turned off. The vaule of that function will vary somewhat depending on where, and when, you travel, but I assume would have greater value the hotter the day, and the longer your lunch break! Again, AFAIK, there are no stainless steel pigtails with rupture protection valves available to suit the Truma DriveSafe system. Your existing regulator will continue to provide downstream leak protection whatever you do. If you fit stainless pigtails with, or without, rupture protection, your system should work with equal safety when static. If you close the cylinder gas cocks while driving, you should be "legal" wherever you drive. It will only be if you drive outside the UK with cylinder gas cocks open, but without the specific Truma pigtails incorporating rupture protection, that you would contravene national laws. How you feel about that, is one for you! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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