ken nugent Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 Hi everyone A friend of ours over here in france is trying to register his 1998 VW Autosleeper RHD with habitation door on left i.e UK style. We have always belived that it is not possible, the french will not register them. He has now been told that he can possibly get some sort of exception waver, providing he does not used the habitation door on the public highway. Has anyone else heard of this is france? or has anyone managed to register a Uk spec as above in France. We know the procedure for registering vehicles in france as we have done several, but it is just this issue with the habitation door that we are tyring to clarify. Thanks ken Nugent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patricia Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 I am also interested in doing this and have asked my French insurance agent to look into the possibility for me. I have also asked her to investigate the legality of towing over here on an A-frame (my motorhome is UK registered, the tow car French registered) but I have not received any answers yet. She seems convinced that the A-frame would be allowed but puzzled that I needed to query registering the motorhome. So who knows? It also depends of course on the department - where one will allow things, another won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry1956 Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Hi some years back we did the same with a ford transit based motorhome, right hand drive, door on wrong side etc. Its a pain but can be done. whats needed, and all doc,s must be in french. Type approval (certificat de conformite): This you can get from VW france. in your case this will only cover the van and not the motorhome converstion. Note from your local tax ofice that no import tax, VAT etc is payable, or it as been paid. in your case you will not need to pay anything as its an older van. paperwork in franch that the headlights have been redirected for LHD. Now here is the fun bit. the gas and elec in the motorhome will need to be checked, your local DRIRE office will tell you how to get this done. and years back it cost 160 euros for the paperwork You will need to map the total inside and outside of the van, in great detail showing in french all the areas, ie seats, cooker, gas locker, doors, size of windows, position of etc, any vents etc, ( we had to fit a further vent in the door seat) the size of van, how long, wide high etc. weight, make and size of tires, infact each detail of the van. take this to your local drire office with all your paperwork, passports, vans, V5, proof of address etc. they will ask for more things for sure. important note. in france for tax and insurance they take great care in the number of seats you have, as the van as the loading door on the wrong side you will not be able to have any rear seats that can be used when on the move, ie, non with seat belts, if you have these will need to be removed along with any belt anchor points, the van will be logged as able to carry TWO people only on the log book. also silly things like signs in france above the windows stating that they must be closed before driving off will be needed, also fire fighting gear must be upto date and in the van, etc. if you need any more help just email. terry1956@btinternet.com . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patricia Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 I was investigating this idea back in January and someone kindly sent me PMs on the subject. I certainly know that it depends on the department as to how fussy they are (for instance my car passed through the legislation with just stickers on the headlamps and they are still there 7 years later1) but your list of prerequisites has really put me off! It is not just the bureaucracy but the cost so I will forget it for the time being. I just object to paying UK road tax when it sits here for months not on any road, not to mention the extra diesel it takes, as opposed to a car, travelling backwards and forwards to the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aultymer Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 "I just object to paying UK road tax when it sits here for months not on any road". Just declare SORN for the months it is not being used. It will require some organisation on your part - surrendering tax disc at the right time and re taxing in time but looks like being cheaper than registering in France. OR sell it and buy a French van in France on French plates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patricia Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 aultymer - 2011-04-20 12:58 PM Just declare SORN for the months it is not being used. It will require some organisation on your part - surrendering tax disc at the right time and re taxing in time but looks like being cheaper than registering in France.. That is what I wanted to do but have been told it is illegal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randonneur Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Patricia, I don't know where Terry got his informations from but a lot of this is not correct. Our Neighbour re-registered his UK registered Laika RHD motorhome 4 years ago and all he had to do was get the Certificate of Conformity from Fiat (base vehicle) and Laika (habitation side), a form from the Impot (you show them you UK registration document and the miles/kms of the vehicle), this just shows that there is no outstanding taxes due. A Control Technique (MOT) if 4 years or over. Some CT places ask you to change the headlights but I would wait until they ask you. You can get the forms that you need for the Prefecture online or from your local Mairie, fill them in and send all the papers with the appropriate cheque, the Mairie will tell you how much. If anyone of them is unhappy then they MIGHT ask you to visit the DRIRE. It is not a difficult process but some people make it so. We re-registered a RHD Ford Focus in June 2009 and we were in the Prefecture 20 minutes thats all, went to Feu Vert and got the new plates put on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aultymer Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 "That is what I wanted to do but have been told it is illegal." Please don't take legal advice from anyone other than a lawyer!! Many people, like me, are strong on advice but short on knowledge! IF your vehicle is 'off road' - I don't see anything in the regulations to say it has to be off road in the UK in order to SORN it. Unless you mean it is off UK roads so you don't want to pay UK road tax while you drive in France which is certainly a no-no. PS, I am not a lawyer!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken nugent Posted April 20, 2011 Author Share Posted April 20, 2011 Hi Terry thanks for the info, this sound very similar to the information he has just been given from the local drire but they have not guaranteed the exemption on the door, he is waiting for a form. They have told him he can take it and pay 380.00 to have gas elec checked, but there is still no guarantee of carte gris. I think where it may all go wrong is that he has only got a part certificate of conformite from VW i.e. the base vehicle, but it is becoming obvious like lots of things in france the rules, reg and laws seem to differ from dept to dept. I see your are up in Normandy, we are not so far away in the Loire dept 49 near chateaubriant. Regards ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken nugent Posted April 20, 2011 Author Share Posted April 20, 2011 We assume the door on the Laika was on the right hand side, it so this does not cause a problem when registering in France. Registering cars is straight forward but registering imported UK spec motorhomes is a totally different kettle of fish. regards ken Patricia, I don't know where Terry got his informations from but a lot of this is not correct. Our Neighbour re-registered his UK registered Laika RHD motorhome 4 years ago and all he had to do was get the Certificate of Conformity from Fiat (base vehicle) and Laika (habitation side), a form from the Impot (you show them you UK registration document and the miles/kms of the vehicle), this just shows that there is no outstanding taxes due. A Control Technique (MOT) if 4 years or over. Some CT places ask you to change the headlights but I would wait until they ask you. You can get the forms that you need for the Prefecture online or from your local Mairie, fill them in and send all the papers with the appropriate cheque, the Mairie will tell you how much. If anyone of them is unhappy then they MIGHT ask you to visit the DRIRE. It is not a difficult process but some people make it so. We re-registered a RHD Ford Focus in June 2009 and we were in the Prefecture 20 minutes thats all, went to Feu Vert and got the new plates put on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patricia Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 It was Brian Kirby who alerted me to this legislation so I emailed the DVLA stating quite clearly that the motorhome would be off road but re-taxed before putting it on the roand again. This is their reply: "Thank you for your email received on 4/3/11. Your email reference number is 573930. The legislation governing vehicle excise and registration matters in the UK is covered by the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 (VERA). From January 2004 a system of Continuous Registration came into force in GB, where the registered keeper of a vehicle will remain financially liable and subject to prosecution if at any time the vehicle is untaxed or not made a SORN. If a vehicle is being taken abroad temporarily and continues to remain within the GB registration system, it will be subject to having a valid tax disc throughout the time it is out of the country. A SORN should not be made if the vehicle is taken abroad as SORN is only valid if the vehicle is being kept off the public road in the UK. I hope that this information has clarified matters for you. Do not reply to this email. If you wish to contact us again about this response then please use our Reply Form or copy and paste the following URL in to your browser: https://emaildvla.direct.gov.uk/emaildvla/cegemail/directgov/en/reply_form_vehicles.html When filling in the form the email reference number 573930 will be required. Regards ******** Customer Enquiries Group DVLA" Reading it again, I might have another go and explain more clearly that it would only be for 3 months max and kept in a field! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian81 Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 aultymer - 2011-04-20 5:46 PM "That is what I wanted to do but have been told it is illegal." Please don't take legal advice from anyone other than a lawyer!! Many people, like me, are strong on advice but short on knowledge! IF your vehicle is 'off road' - I don't see anything in the regulations to say it has to be off road in the UK in order to SORN it. Unless you mean it is off UK roads so you don't want to pay UK road tax while you drive in France which is certainly a no-no. PS, I am not a lawyer!! ...forget about lawyers. just read http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/UntaxedVehicle/DG_4022058 Specifically "The vehicle must be in and remain in Great Britain to make a SORN." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elamessa Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Just adding my experience with a 2006 Lunar Telstar. I had all the paperwork for the habitation side conforming to all the relevant EN codes. I also had the certificate of conformity for the chassis side, actually a European Whole Vehicle Type Approval as its based on a van. Took all the documentation to the DREAL (DRIRE) and they said that it was all in order. Great....... They then said that to register the vehicle in france I would need to change the headlights change the rear reversing and fog lights to conform with the code de la route (the rear lights were on the uk side) might have to change the speedo because the trip didn't read in km's. They were quite happy with the habitation door being on the UK side. In the end I drove the van back to the UK and sold it and purchased a very nice 2nd hand LHD French registered Burstner for a lot less than I could have got the same model in the UK as it wasn't worth the hassle continuing with the Lunar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patricia Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 ...forget about lawyers. just read http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/UntaxedVehicle/DG_4022058 Specifically "The vehicle must be in and remain in Great Britain to make a SORN." Am I being particularly thick tonight but I have read this paragraph twice and it still does not make sense: SORN or vehicle tax due to expire while you’re abroad The vehicle must be in and remain in Great Britain to make a SORN. You can make a SORN up to two calendar months in advance. Fill in a V890 together with a letter explaining why you’re applying so far in advance and post them to DVLA, Swansea SA99 1AR. You can make a SORN online or by phone when it’s due, or get someone to post your SORN application to DVLA on your behalf while you’re abroad. If you want to renew your tax in advance, you can do this up to two calendar months in advance. You can renew at a Post Office® branch that deals with advance applications or a Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) local office. If you are abroad and want to SORN the vehicle, why would you want to do it up to two months in advance? If it is not abroad with you (and it says it much not be) why not SORN it straight away and get a refund? I think I should maybe have started a new thread with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randonneur Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Patricia - 2011-04-20 10:15 PM If you are abroad and want to SORN the vehicle, why would you want to do it up to two months in advance? If it is not abroad with you (and it says it much not be) why not SORN it straight away and get a refund? Patricia, I think they mean that if you have a vehicle in the UK but you will be abroad (not with the vehicle) when the tax is due, (the vehicle could be being used by another insured person with your permission in that 2 months) then they give you the opportunity to SORN it when the 2 months are up whilst you are away. Does that make sense? As as example - say you have a car that has 2 months tax left on and you allow a Friend to use the car until the end of the 2 months but during that time you have arranged the SORN date to be at the end of the Tax Period then you can do so. Don't forget you only get full months refund not part months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aultymer Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 "Specifically "The vehicle must be in and remain in Great Britain to make a SORN." Sorry - missed that bit!! But wonder- Why ?? Are we only in the EU when it suits some departments? Do they want you to declare it exported and then import it when you return? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randonneur Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 aultymer - 2011-04-21 1:26 AM "Specifically "The vehicle must be in and remain in Great Britain to make a SORN." Sorry - missed that bit!! But wonder- Why ?? Are we only in the EU when it suits some departments? Do they want you to declare it exported and then import it when you return? Unfortunately yes, you have hit the nail on the head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry1956 Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 hi, re i AM WRONG. sorry I have done this myself, Not some mate or other person. I have also apart from the ford put my hymer on franch plates, and this is yes a matter of getting the paperwork from hymer in france, cost free. The thing is that the VW is an older converstion and unless you can get a cert stating that the converstion was done to the correct EU standards of the time, then you need to go the route i outlined. as to cost. Certificat de Conformitie. depends on company, hymer was free. ford was 60 euros headlights, hymer.free, ford free Controle Technique test, both 65 euros, runs for two years Carte Grise. both 120 euros, depends on department and as gone up. number plates. both 25 euros the pair insurance with axa fully comp, was around 260 euros pa with full breakdown cover. Please please don,t take any mind to the numbers of people on this site and others, who have never done anything themselves and just don,t know what they are talking about. In france its paperwork hell, yes a lot depends on the age of the motorhome and the dept you go to, I had to use caen as i have a house in normandy. michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 This is a Subject that always gets me a bit 'Hot under the collar' with regards to the EU being a 'free market zone'. The compulsory changing over of Fog/Reversing lights, headlight dipping, and even KPH speedo(overlay ??) I understand, for safety and conformity. BUT what has which side the Habitation door is on, got to do with anyone ??? Hundreds if not thousands of van's drive around in the UK with Habitation doors on the 'wrong' side , and indeed are sold 'New' like this. The same goes for whether it is RHD or LHD ? if the owner decides he will be mainly driving 'Abroad' whether that be mainland Europe or in the UK (for a French owner) who's business is that too ?? If the EU really is a 'Free' market then Motorhomes sourced in the UK should be as freely obtainable and useable in Mainland Europe as European van's are in the UK. And that should include Second Hand ones as well. (sorry rant over). Otherwise 'Restrictive practise' limits trade, which is surely the ONLY reason to be in the EU in the first place. >:-) Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry1956 Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 To the above, having lived in france and still having a house there, I know one thing France is just not interested in anything non french. They are paperwork, red tape happy. lots of things in france are very expensive because they can,t buy much out side of france and use out of the box. I hate what the EU as become and wish to god we as a country had nothing to do with it, the french love the EU because they don,t follow all the silly rules and laws that come with it. michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken nugent Posted April 21, 2011 Author Share Posted April 21, 2011 Hi Ray and Terry You have summed it up in one. The french are lovely people and we love living here but when it comes to jobs worth and red tape, the french bring a new meaning to the word (pain in the Butt) and thats putting it mildly. But just another point, how is it that whenever someone posts a thread with quite a clear question WHY do people persist in having their two penth worth on something totally off thread, i.e SORN Regards ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aultymer Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Ken, I regard you as a PRAT. Why? Patricia specificaly said she objected to paying UK road tax while the vehicle was 'off the road'! SORN is the specific answer to that problem. The fact that the UK tax people object to one doing that if your vehicle is 'off the road' outside the UK is worthy of discussion and challenge. Over to you mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elamessa Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 Rayjsj - 2011-04-21 10:57 AM This is a Subject that always gets me a bit 'Hot under the collar' with regards to the EU being a 'free market zone'. The compulsory changing over of Fog/Reversing lights, headlight dipping, and even KPH speedo(overlay ??) I understand, for safety and conformity. BUT what has which side the Habitation door is on, got to do with anyone ??? Hundreds if not thousands of van's drive around in the UK with Habitation doors on the 'wrong' side , and indeed are sold 'New' like this. The same goes for whether it is RHD or LHD ? if the owner decides he will be mainly driving 'Abroad' whether that be mainland Europe or in the UK (for a French owner) who's business is that too ?? If the EU really is a 'Free' market then Motorhomes sourced in the UK should be as freely obtainable and useable in Mainland Europe as European van's are in the UK. And that should include Second Hand ones as well. (sorry rant over). Otherwise 'Restrictive practise' limits trade, which is surely the ONLY reason to be in the EU in the first place. >:-) Ray You have to blame the manufacturers for a lot of these problems. If when they build the vans they put 2 reversing lights and 2 rear fog lights in place that would relieve one problem, the same goes for the speedo/trip computer a dual readout is not a problem (i have one on my UK spec French registered car). What would it cost to put a switchable headlight unit in place? Also why do a lot of converters not produce vehicles that are compliant with all the EN conditions with regard to gas/electric and habitation. A UK side habitation is not a problem here, you can still register here as long as it meets all the other criteria listed above. Uk manufacturers do not supply their customers with LHD vehicles and they have no outlets in Europe. So no choice for European countries to buy said vehicles.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry1956 Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 Hi to the above, lets get this clear. if you can get a cert that covers both the van build and the motorhome part in french then N/P. however if its only a part cert that just covers the van part, then you will need to go the path i outlined above. my ford was a 2001 ford transit with an O Leary made camper converstion, as O Leary,s could not produce a cert to cover what they had done, the motorhome was listed by the french as a home build. the hymer was just easy, paperwork from hymer french covered both the van part and the motorhome etc. no inspections needed at all. i hope this clears this registering a motorhome in france issure up.and i must say that years back i asked the same question on this forum, re the ford and had so much rubbish stated by what turned out to be by people that had never done it, and all turned out to be total misinformation. michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murphy99 Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 Hi Ken, New members living in France. Back in 2003 had no trouble registering our LHD Hymer when we moved to France from UK but of course not the issue your friend has.! I did not think it possible to register UK made Camper with Habitation door on "wrong side" for France but checked with friends who said it may be possible and to contact the "Mains" (whoever they are ) who do the Inspections. You could also try a French Forum such as Index Total France which we use and find helpful. Hope this may be of some help. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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