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Reject new van


AED

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What are your consumer rights if you wish to reject a brand new van that you consider a " Lemon" ?

If the Dealer offers to fix the many faults but you are not happy , in your view, in case these faults may reoccur ,can you demand your money back ? Would it make any difference if the deposit was paid by credit card and the balance by Bank Transfer ?

I have heard that there is also a difference how you have paid, Cash or Finance, as to the outcome .

Thanks, Alan.

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There is certainly an avenue of consumer entitlement which can allow you to reject a motorhome and get your money back if there are unacceptable faults and failure to remedy them. I believe it got much easier to enforce this on a supplier with new consumer legislation a couple of years ago. Even before then it was possible and I met a guy who had done it successfully twice, although he'd had to go to court and take quite a risk of facing legal costs before the other side capitulated at the last minute and gave in. He was quite a determined sort of person or a stubborn belligerent , as his opponents would have described him. In the more recent case he had the MH for three years (during which there had been a saga of failure to remedy things) and he was still able to reject and get all his money back, plus legal costs. But it took real balls on his part to make the journey to success.

 

But it is common experience to encounter some faults with a motorhome because they are hand-built, small volume products compared with other vehicles, so it probably doesn't make sense to buy one without being willing to tolerate some problems and the returns or delays necessary to fix them. Motorhome dealers don't have great reputations for fixing things quickly and reliably either, so if you are unlucky and get so troublesome faults, it could be reassuring the know that you have consumer protection law backing you up. There is considerable risk in buying from a dealer who is a long way away from home because you will be expected to return the MH to the dealer'spremises to get it fixed each time.

 

I bought our MH (new, impoorted) 15 years ago and we were lucky; there were only a couple of small issues (eg a faulty switch, which was posted to me and I was happy to replace myself) and although we later spotted an area of delamination on the habitation door, it was just a small patch of failed gluing and it was hardly noticeable, so we lived with it rather than demanding a replacement door.

 

I suppose the point I'm making is that if you are the sort who needs every blemish and every fault dealt with, buying a motorhome could prove to be very frustrating experieince which is better avoided, especially perhaps buying British-built MHs, which seem to have a higher fault rate. Motorhoming really requires a modicum of DIY attitude as well as some DIY skills because that's part of the fun.

 

 

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There's a lady called Vicky in the Autotrail Unhappy Owners Club who specialises in helping people reject their new faulty Autotrail vans. She has done quite a few so you may want to contact her for advice (regardless of your motorhome brand).

 

 

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Thanks, although I do find it bizarre there has to be such a thing.Are we such an easy touch after spending £ 50,000 that a vehicle is not fit for purpose ? I understand that it is the Dealer and not the Factory where the responsibility lies . As the Commission for selling can be quite large, perhaps the Dealers should be more diligent with their quality control before handover.

In most walks of life your money back is routine for faulty goods,I was just wondering if the same applies to brand new motorhomes. I am on the verge of parting with £50 grand and reviews make me nervous.

Alan.

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I have rejected a brand new car before after three weeks as the repeated breakdowns were a joke. This was a SAAB (rest in peace..), so meant to be a decent make.

 

I took it up with the dealer and we forced SAAB to investigate and they replaced it. As your contract I expect was with the dealer then they need to be your first port of call- its them your agreement was with I expect? If it's such a bad example then I would expect the dealer to be vigorous in getting things solved for you. As the other posts have pointed out though, the bespoke nature of MHs may mean that niggles have to be sorted out after purchase.

 

keep us updated in what you do, and how it goes.

 

 

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AED - 2020-07-06 10:43 AM

Would it make any difference if the deposit was paid by credit card and the balance by Bank Transfer ?

I have heard that there is also a difference how you have paid, Cash or Finance, as to the outcome .

Thanks, Alan.

 

The last time I looked the limit for Credit card under section 75(and 75a) was £30,000, once the goods are more than this you are not covered unless it is a loan specifically for the goods, then the limit is £60,260.

p.s. Just to be clear, if the van cost more than £30,000 none of that amount is covered by section 75 for credit cards, and if the van is more than £60,260 none of the amount is covered by section 75a for loans.

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Hi Alan

 

I wish I had rejected one of our Motorhomes with 32 faults ( found the 1st day ) .

For the period I owned that Mh I had to keep taking it back for more repairs.

I’m pretty sure I did more miles to and from the factory than I did using it for holidays.

If it’s not fit for purpose, try and reject it.

 

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AED - 2020-07-06 2:02 PM

... I am on the verge of parting with £50 grand and reviews make me nervous.

Alan.

 

So just to clarify, you are thinking of purchasing a brand new MH for £50k and now reading reviews for this particular make and/or model you are getting second thoughts, correct?

 

If so you will always be looking for faults and never truly appreciating what you do have so back out now and look for something which will hopefully suit your requirements better. Even if this means a SH model of a higher quality and hopefully where the previous owner has sorted out all the niggles.

 

Just my two pennyworth!

 

Keith.

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Keithl - 2020-07-06 5:24 PM

AED - 2020-07-06 2:02 PM

... I am on the verge of parting with £50 grand and reviews make me nervous.

Alan.

So just to clarify, you are thinking of purchasing a brand new MH for £50k and now reading reviews for this particular make and/or model you are getting second thoughts, correct?

 

If so you will always be looking for faults and never truly appreciating what you do have so back out now and look for something which will hopefully suit your requirements better. Even if this means a SH model of a higher quality and hopefully where the previous owner has sorted out all the niggles.

 

Just my two pennyworth! Keith.

I agree. If you haven't yet placed a deposit, don't. Then re-think what you want.

 

If you have placed a deposit, first read the purchase contract you have already (presumably, as you have paid a deposit) entered into to see what it says about changing your mind before delivery, and whether the deposit is refundable and whether that is conditional on time or whatever.

 

In effect, you have placed a deposit on a vehicle that you have now lost confidence in following reports of poor quality/reliability (you may have to quote examples of these reports).

 

Then, if you are still unhappy, speak quickly to Citizen's Advice (or e-mail them) or simply have a rummage on their website, to clarify your legal position. I suggest you also look at your car/house/contents insurances to see if any provides a legal advisory service. Many do. Some will pursue cases for you, others merely give general advice.

 

If there is a penalty for cancelling, and the legal advice is that you can't escape the penalty, then consider whether it is worth accepting the penalty in order to gain peace of mind, as you can then start again from scratch with a vehicle in which you have greater confidence. You may be able to regain the loss via your credit card company if the deposit was paid by card, but that, too, might need legal advice as I don't think breaking a contract on the basis of (presently unspecified) reports of poor quality etc. would normally be accepted as reasonable grounds for breach.

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Yes Keith,the Evoution has all the extras I need and is the right size for me. I have not purchased it or paid a deposit.

I was surprised to learn that there would be no credit card protection as I had wrongly assumed the correct thing to do was to pay a minimum of £100 deposit to gain protection, I did not realise there was an upper limit on the purchase price.

I have had 2x brand new motorhomes in the past with no problems but these days it looks like defects are common.

It used to be that " hand built " was a sign of quality, not so in the motorhome world it seems.

I am considering my position as there is no rush as this year could be a write off and with winter approaching.

I don`t think I can make it abroad either until early next year,so I am just preparing to purchase as there seems to be a waiting list for new vans at the moment. So not decided or committed as yet but I am ready to go if the new right van comes up.

Thanks so much for all the advice. Alan.

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Just a thought Brian, I have been in Business all my life and with any large transactions I have produced a Contract. Do you think the Dealer would accept it if I included " The van can be rejected and full return of purchase price if the vehicle is not acceptable or put in an acceptable condition within 14 days " ?

Alan.

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AED - 2020-07-07 9:07 AM

 

Just a thought Brian, I have been in Business all my life and with any large transactions I have produced a Contract. Do you think the Dealer would accept it if I included " The van can be rejected and full return of purchase price if the vehicle is not acceptable or put in an acceptable condition within 14 days " ?

Alan.

 

How would you define acceptable?

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AED - 2020-07-07 9:07 AM

Just a thought Brian, I have been in Business all my life and with any large transactions I have produced a Contract. Do you think the Dealer would accept it if I included " The van can be rejected and full return of purchase price if the vehicle is not acceptable or put in an acceptable condition within 14 days " ?

Alan.

I believe that motorhomes are generally sold subject to the SMMT standard form of contract. However, it will need someone who has bought a van from a dealer in this country to confirm that, as I have not done so. My understanding of the terms of the SMMT contract is that it tends to favour the seller over the buyer, but if you buy from the motor trade it is all you can get, so it effectively becomes take it or leave it. I vaguely remember hearing or reading that dealers are strongly discouraged from agreeing variations to the standard form.

 

The next question though, in my mind, is why would a dealer agree to what you propose, bearing in mind that what you say is broadly covered by existing consumer legislation which "trumps" anything included an any contract of sale. The most likely reason I can think of would be that he is desperate for the business, which would raise in my mind whether (especially under present circumstances) his business is sound. A contract with a bust business is worth what, exactly?

 

First choose a van in which you have confidence, then choose a dealership in which you have confidence (you can find out a lot from the Companies House website), and then pay attention to the legal definition of "acceptance" in the relevant consumer legislation. Whether you can subsequently reject hangs to a great extent on whether you can be deemed to have accepted the goods in the first instance. That is to say, rejection is relatively straightforward before you are deemed to have accepted, but more complex thereafter.

 

Also bear in mind that you must be "reasonable" in your expectations of the seller. You are obliged to allow him to attempt to rectify faults, which he must do within a "reasonable time", and he has to be allowed to satisfy himself that the fault is genuine and is not a result of abuse by the buyer. Record keeping becomes essential in seeking an outright rejection, in being able to prove why you wish to reject, who you notified of defects, when, whether they accepted the defect, whether remedy was available in a reasonable time, etc. etc.

 

So, you need to check the vehicle very thoroughly before taking delivery and paying the final sum due, and the dealer should demonstrate everything to you during handover, meaning there will be water in the fresh water tank, a gas cylinder connected in the gas locker, a toilet cassette in place, and a mains electrical supply connected, so that the cooker, the water supply, the heating system, the 12V electrics, and the 230V electrics, can all be shown to be fully working. In other words, making sure that the basics are covered before you drive it away. Advise the dealer that you'll be going for a couple of days evaluation with the van as soon as you take delivery, so that they know you'll be back promptly with anything their PDI misses. That may sharpen reluctant eyes!

 

Then get it home and go over it with a fine tooth comb, remembering that if you insist the dealer fixes such minor items as a loose screw on a cabinet hinge you may be earning yourself the reputation of being somewhat petty minded and so burning goodwill. Finally, with one eye on that legal definition of acceptance, get it to a campsite as conveniently close to your home and the dealership as soon as you can and, having carefully read the various manuals, put everything through its paces for 48 hours or so, to be sure that the fridge works on all three energy supplies, the shower functions as it should, that the water does get hot on gas and/or 230V as appropriate, etc. etc. and that nothing "comes off in your hand" when you use it. Note everything that is tested, and whether, and when, it fails. Then, phone the dealer for a date to take the van in, and follow up, in writing, for the attention of a director, stating when the van is to be brought back and listing all faults that you consider they should remedy, and (for the record) any you've dealt with yourself during your familiarisation trip.

 

It remains possible that items may subsequently suffer "infantile failure", but there is nothing that can be done to eliminate these before the event. That is what the various warranties are really about. All manufactured items can, from time to time, suffer components that unexpectedly fail and that just has to be accepted. However, if the van is regularly used most of these should have emerged to be dealt with under warranty during the first year of ownership.

 

It would be interesting to hear what sorts of defects you have been hearing of to raise your concerns. Others in the same position as you may then be forewarned what to look for when buying. For example, a number of failures of a particular fridge may indicate that a specific model is best avoided until a series problem has been remedied by its manufacturer.

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I had a perfectly good brand new Renault Lunar coach built in 2007, which took me all around France ,Spain and Portugal, with not a hint of any problems, no rattles no body creaks, nothing We moved house and I sold it. I had become a Renault Automatic fan and could not tolerate a Fiat with the terrible comformatic autobox. I then purchased in 2014 a new Renault auto Provence panel van from Devon conversions. Where I live, I am amongst several of the biggest Dealers in the country on my doorstep.But this was hundreds of miles away and thankfully it never had to go back in for any problems. I had used the van to try and acquire a Villa, with all the problems that entailed I finally bought a nice bungalow in Filey,Yorkshire !

With my own property, my car and this second home there was little time to use it and I took a bath on the sale.This was the biggest mistake of the decade for me. I grew tired of going to the same place all the time and sold it. I then looked around for a replacement van, Devon conversions had stopped building on Renaults, I begged Peter to build me another Provence but that was not possible. My friend had just purchased a new Master van and was not happy with the quality of the conversion. As I am a dyed in the wool Renault auto man I am finding it difficult to find a replacement. Brownhills, Lowdham Fuller , Smc are all on my doorstep and are 90% Fiat stockists. I am currently awaiting Test drives to start again so I can appraise this replacement ZF 9 speed box. I have been researching all the reviews for my next van but they have not been encouraging so far.

Alan

 

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Bop - 2020-07-07 12:49 PM

Here we go Alan:

 

https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/legal-rights-to-reject.200955/

 

Rerember though, you do NOT have to give the dealer a chance to repair the faults during the first 30-days of ownership.

 

All the best,

 

Andrew

No, but you do have to have a valid reason for rejection. Last I heard, you do have to establish that the "goods" are not as described, are unfit for purpose, or of unsatisfactory quality. In effect, you need to establish that the defect (or combination of defects) is/are sufficiently serious as to prevent you using the vehicle for its intended purpose, and that is unlikely to be straightforward.

 

Consider, the vehicle is now registered and is brand new. If the dealer can't rectify the defect/s to your (reasonable) satisfaction within a "reasonable" time, and accepts that, he must then take it back and in his own interests will then try to sell it as used but nearly new, or some such. To do that he'll have to discount it, to overcome the natural suspicion of any buyer of nearly new vehicle that is being sold after a few weeks ownership by its previous owner. It has "lemon" written all over its credentials!

 

Don't expect the dealer to simply say "c'est la vie" and take the loss without some fight back.

 

He will also be likely to have done this more often than you, so will know (and probably have tried) all the arguments he can use. I'm not saying don't, and I'm not saying it can't be done, all I'm saying is that when £40K+ is involved, that nice pussycat you bought the van from is likely to start spitting! :-D

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