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Reliable inverter installer in the South West of England?


robdav

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Hi

 

Can anyone recommend a reliable company in the South West who could install a decent size inverter (2000w), possibly an additional leisure battery and wire it so we have the ability to use the existing 13mp socket in the van and not the socket in the inverter. Some sort of switch would be needed depending on whether you were on/off grid.

 

Thanks

 

Rob

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Robdav, The loading of a 2000w inverter can be close on 200amps at the batteries, when the usual 100Ah Leisure battery is only designed to handle a continuous current draw of no more than about 30amps continuously for more than a minute and still retain it's life.

 

Also bear in mind it is usually the Alternator that puts all this power back, via wiring and electronics that were designed for a maximum 50amps. If the engine is started with an inverter wired from the habitation battery, the Inverter will try and pull those 200 amps via that very fragile cabling/electronics.

 

 

Can we suggest that if you REALLY need to go the Inverter route, that you wire it from the Alternator and run the engine when you need the Inverter so the Alternator supplies all the power?

This way the batteries don't get put under any strain, nor does the 12v infrastructure.

 

The solution also has the benefit of more efficient Fridge operation on the move and faster habitation battery charging.

 

More info in this post from someone who already has this setup (it was thought up by a man whose forum name is Welted) and find it works beautifully - https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Yet-another-battery-question/50035/61/ start at the section dated 3 September 2018 7:40 AM

 

 

May we also suggest that when you get a quote, you ask the potential installer to 'break the cable' between the EHU inlet 16a socket and fit a 16a female socket to the end of the EHU side.

Likewise the Inverter 230v output has a female 16a socket.

The RCD cable end then has a 16a Male socket fitted so it can only one be connected to either EHU or Inverter, but not both.

This is the safest way of achieving your 'switch' because you can physically see which the RCD is running from, and obviously you never,ever ever want to run any part of motorhome 230v interior using an inherently unsafe inverter without the safety of the RCD, even though that still isn't ideal.

 

Can we suggest that you don't consider Vanbitz, who will tell you the 'usual' battery destroying way of wiring it is the best, but, instead consider employing a local auto electrician?

 

Auto electricians understand 12v inside out, it is their daily work. The don't fix bouncy floors, seal water leaks in plumbing or water ingress through roofs or overhaul Fridge Gas burners. They just do 12v, each day and every day.

Many motorhome/caravan specialists don't even understand the 12v electronic power/charger controllers inside a motorhome, yet they are the Heart of the 12v.

 

 

If you show your chosen installer the info above most auto sparky's will understand the workings and look at it without the usual flawed pre-conceived ideas. They know about Alternators and will be happy to use this source.

If they don't appreciate the motorhome mix between 12v and 230v, we will supply them with free Tech Support.

 

 

And before anyone thinks we are after this type of work, we don't fit Inverters for the exact reasons explained on our 'Inverters' web pages. http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/inverters.php

 

 

Robdav, If you do approach a 'motorhome specialist' for a quote, you might want to read the web page and think of a way of asking your potential installer, at 'quote time', how their install gets around the 230v mains safety issues mentioned on the web pages, or even ask them what safety issues they think there are, maybe as a test?

 

 

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robdav - 2018-10-10 3:41 PM

 

Hi

 

Can anyone recommend a reliable company in the South West who could install a decent size inverter (2000w)...

Thanks

 

Rob

 

Rob,

 

I've got to ask what are you planning on running off a 2,000 W inverter and is there really no other way of doing whatever it is?

 

As has been explained by others this is a really high risk route for both batteries and safety.

 

Keith.

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aandncaravan - 2018-10-11 7:09 AM

 

Keith, there is another solution, your very own portable EHU post.

Hook up to it in the middle of Snowdonia using a Honda EU10i 230v generator with a rain hood to help reduce the noise. ;-)

 

The 10i will also struggle to deliver the 2000W ;-) , but I agree entirely with the sentiment that if you want 2kW on the MH's mains outlets whilst off grid, there is really no practical alternative to the generator route.

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I have my inverter connected to my engine battery I have a 130 hp Boxer but fitted the 3 litre battery just to have more capacity, on my Elddis the hook up socket is in a locker I have a fly lead from the inverter with a hook up female end on it this stay inside the locker so nothing is on the outside of the van. Using this method there is no way both the mains 240 and the inverter can be connected at the same time, but allows power to all the mains sockets. Different vans may need a rotary switch to do this. I have a 2000 watt psu inverter but max use is 1000 watts for the microwave but allowing for startup current or charging my Gtec vac. This way I can also run my ses fridge on mains whilst driving, which allows temp control and is more efficient than the 12 volt element, and can also run my 30 amp mains charger whilst driving. If I need the 240 for more than a short period I just run the engine. You will need roughly 28 amps @ 12 volt d.c. To produce 1 amp 240 volt a.c. Allowing for inverter inefficiency voltage drop in cabling. A good 100amp 12 volt battery will at best give you 50 amps usable current more like 40% the lower you discharge your batteries the less they recover so shortening their live. I have used this system for nearly two years and used sensibly have no problems. Have fitted a relay so if engine not running the mains charger is isolated to stop flattening the engine battery but allows use of other equipment. But care must be taken re demand on batteries.
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aandncaravan - 2018-10-10 11:11 PM

 

Robdav, The loading of a 2000w inverter can be close on 200amps at the batteries, when the usual 100Ah Leisure battery is only designed to handle a continuous current draw of no more than about 30amps continuously for more than a minute and still retain it's life.

 

Also bear in mind it is usually the Alternator that puts all this power back, via wiring and electronics that were designed for a maximum 50amps. If the engine is started with an inverter wired from the habitation battery, the Inverter will try and pull those 200 amps via that very fragile cabling/electronics.

 

 

Can we suggest that if you REALLY need to go the Inverter route, that you wire it from the Alternator and run the engine when you need the Inverter so the Alternator supplies all the power?

This way the batteries don't get put under any strain, nor does the 12v infrastructure.

 

The solution also has the benefit of more efficient Fridge operation on the move and faster habitation battery charging.

 

More info in this post from someone who already has this setup (it was thought up by a man whose forum name is Welted) and find it works beautifully - https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Yet-another-battery-question/50035/61/ start at the section dated 3 September 2018 7:40 AM

 

 

May we also suggest that when you get a quote, you ask the potential installer to 'break the cable' between the EHU inlet 16a socket and fit a 16a female socket to the end of the EHU side.

Likewise the Inverter 230v output has a female 16a socket.

The RCD cable end then has a 16a Male socket fitted so it can only one be connected to either EHU or Inverter, but not both.

This is the safest way of achieving your 'switch' because you can physically see which the RCD is running from, and obviously you never,ever ever want to run any part of motorhome 230v interior using an inherently unsafe inverter without the safety of the RCD, even though that still isn't ideal.

 

Can we suggest that you don't consider Vanbitz, who will tell you the 'usual' battery destroying way of wiring it is the best, but, instead consider employing a local auto electrician?

 

Auto electricians understand 12v inside out, it is their daily work. The don't fix bouncy floors, seal water leaks in plumbing or water ingress through roofs or overhaul Fridge Gas burners. They just do 12v, each day and every day.

Many motorhome/caravan specialists don't even understand the 12v electronic power/charger controllers inside a motorhome, yet they are the Heart of the 12v.

 

 

If you show your chosen installer the info above most auto sparky's will understand the workings and look at it without the usual flawed pre-conceived ideas. They know about Alternators and will be happy to use this source.

If they don't appreciate the motorhome mix between 12v and 230v, we will supply them with free Tech Support.

 

 

And before anyone thinks we are after this type of work, we don't fit Inverters for the exact reasons explained on our 'Inverters' web pages. http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/inverters.php

 

 

Robdav, If you do approach a 'motorhome specialist' for a quote, you might want to read the web page and think of a way of asking your potential installer, at 'quote time', how their install gets around the 230v mains safety issues mentioned on the web pages, or even ask them what safety issues they think there are, maybe as a test?

 

 

In layman's terms, firstly you don't like inverters because they can damage batteries if they aren't used sensibly. Worse case you'll need to buy a new battery more often. It's the second point I'd like to understand further. Obviously if you have external hook-up plugged in and the inverter trying to supply the 240v socket, this would be bad hence the need for a switch or physical plug/unplug of the 'broken' EHU cable. Can you add anymore in layman's terms to this issue (how they are wired up) that I'd need to discuss with a potential installer? I'm not an electrician.

 

At most I probably need to be able to charge my laptop which needs 120w for two hours.

 

A generator is not an option because I don't have a big coach built motorhome with lots of external cupboards to store the generator and petrol cans in.

 

Remaining parked up at a caravan park with electric hook-up is not an option.

 

Thanks.

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If all that you’re aiming to do is charge a laptop might I suggest that you dump the 240V inverter solution?

 

Think of it this way, your laptop mains adaptor is there to change 240v AC to, in the case of my old laptop, 19v DC.

 

So if you take the inverter route you’re going 12v DC (car battery) to 240v AC (via the inverter) and then back down to 19v DC (via your laptop adapter).

 

An alternative solution would be to do as I do. I have a car cigarette lighter socket in the habitation area that's powered off the habitation batteries and into the socket I plug one of these - a 12v laptop power adapter

 

Link to eBay

 

For me it works perfectly.

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Rob, just send an email to the company I recommended, they will advise and install a safe and practical system. A 300 watts sine wave inverter with its own dedicated socket will be safe with a double insulated device like a charger. Victron make well designed and reliable inverters in this power range. There will be little loss of battery service life.

Braking into the vans 230v citcuits is not advised without professional guidance and testing.

 

Mike

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mikefitz - 2018-10-11 11:19 AM

 

Rob, just send an email to the company I recommended, they will advise and install a safe and practical system. A 300 watts sine wave inverter with its own dedicated socket will be safe with a double insulated device like a charger. Victron make well designed and reliable inverters in this power range. There will be little loss of battery service life.

Braking into the vans 230v citcuits is not advised without professional guidance and testing.

 

Mike

 

Thanks Mike, will see them at the NEC next week.

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BruceM - 2018-10-11 11:03 AM

 

If all that you’re aiming to do is charge a laptop might I suggest that you dump the 240V inverter solution?

 

Think of it this way, your laptop mains adaptor is there to change 240v AC to, in the case of my old laptop, 19v DC.

 

So if you take the inverter route you’re going 12v DC (car battery) to 240v AC (via the inverter) and then back down to 19v DC (via your laptop adapter).

 

An alternative solution would be to do as I do. I have a car cigarette lighter socket in the habitation area that's powered off the habitation batteries and into the socket I plug one of these - a 12v laptop power adapter

 

Link to eBay

 

For me it works perfectly.

 

This is the solution that I adopted. I purchased a Kerio Energy Knight I in 2004 from sadly now defunct Maplin . After many trips to NZ and in the UK, it is still going strong. I normally float my laptop battery from the adaptor rather than cycle it.

 

The only suggestion that I have to make regarding Bruce's post is to broaden the search terms on Ebay by removing the references to 80W, Universal and specific computer manufacturers. This will give a wider range of adaptor choices including at least one offering both 12V and 240V inputs.

 

Rob has considered adding a second habitation battery. This may be a good idea but Allan of aandncaravan services has a web page illustrating some of the pitfalls.

 

Alan

 

.

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aandncaravan - 2018-10-10 11:11 PM

 

Robdav,

...........

 

Can we suggest that if you REALLY need to go the Inverter route, that you wire it from the Alternator and run the engine when you need the Inverter so the Alternator supplies all the power?

.............

 

 

Beware this will be less discrete, and more annoying than the alternatively suggested alternator.

 

Alan

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mikefitz - 2018-10-11 11:19 AM

 

Rob, just send an email to the company I recommended..................

Braking into the vans 230v citcuits is not advised without professional guidance and testing.

 

Mike

 

Are they having a laugh? Putting three plugs and sockets, that are as easy to wire as a 13amp plug, yet they are suggesting,

"Braking into the vans 230v citcuits is not advised without professional guidance and testing"

is beyond the capability of any autoelectrician we recommended?

 

 

How do they plan to make it safe? How do they stop the Inverter faulting and putting out the 287v we once saw? Do they fit Inverters that have failsafe output voltage regulation like we suggest is mandated through legislation?

I am sorry but their response is just the usual Sales talk.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Ocsid - 2018-10-11 8:15 AM

 

aandncaravan - 2018-10-11 7:09 AM

 

Keith, there is another solution, your very own portable EHU post.

Hook up to it in the middle of Snowdonia using a Honda EU10i 230v generator with a rain hood to help reduce the noise. ;-)

 

The 10i will also struggle to deliver the 2000W ;-) , but I agree entirely with the sentiment that if you want 2kW on the MH's mains outlets whilst off grid, there is really no practical alternative to the generator route.

The output of the Honda 10i is only 1000 watts at best so it will not struggle , it will just trip out on overload, I guess you mean the bigger 2000 watt Honda?
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I had a Bosch 2500 watt[ initial surge ] then 2000 watt inverter fitted in my B694 Hymer, I had 2 X 110 amp hr,batteries and a 100 watt solar panel, I ran a string of 230 volt standard domestic sockets [6] at strategic points through my van separate to the vans hook up supply, it required very heavy cabling from the batteries to the inverter and had an heavy duty fuse carrier [ it was fitted with an 150 amp fuse] ?, in our wisdom we carried a domestic size vacuum cleaner in the van , hair curlers, kettle ,hair drier ,electric hot plate etc and all worked OK for short periods ,Initially the inverter and cabling was fitted by Brownhills at preston where I bought the van, the cables they used and the original fuse carrier was too small , and it all blew, I took the van to Solar Solutions at Poole and had it refitted properly , Brownhills had to pay the bill.I ran the string of sockets myself with no problem. the initial feed to the sockets was from a standard 13 amp plug into the inverter, I could only use the sockets on the string one at a time of course depending on what I was running at the time of use.as the sockets were basic spurs and not ring main.

A problem with this large inverter was that it did not like small current draw,it would not power up? phone charging etc , so I used 12 volt for that,over all with hind site the whole thing was a waste of money and totally unnecessary, I now have a smaller 2'5 tonne van to which I fitted an 8oo watt inverter which I bought from Maplins , We only use this infrequently to run a 200 watt spin drier when wild camping , all our other power comes from gas or through the solar panels, and we are off grid for months on end as we do not use camp sites and prefer to wild camp where we can and use the CCC rallies when in England., I have an Honda 10i genny that I bought years ago, it has run for less than 25 hours as I hate the thing noisy and intrusive to others, it was a must have item at purchase , it now sits in my garage unused, it is basically useless as the output is only about 4.5 amps so very little use for most things, it needs a can of smelly petrol carried too. I am loathe to get rid of it however as one never knows when it may help in the case of a power cut at home for a few emergency lights maybe.??

The inverter needed an Earth spike driven into the ground when in use as unlike electric hook ups that earth back through the bourne or hook up post the Inverter did not so I had an earth cable fitted to it and earthed it to ground?

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I am not having a laugh, and am posting comments as an experienced electrical engineer with many years experience in high and low voltage systems. I have no connection with the company I recommended.

 

All motor caravan mains systems have to comply with standards and if modified should be tested to ensure the safety protective circuits operate correctly. Once an inverter is connected to multiple sockets, the system should /must be tested. Unless the inverter is suitably designed and has the neutral earth bonded, any RCD will not operate correctly.

 

Many auto electricians are not qualified to work on mains systems and are unlikely to have the necessary test equipment.

 

I agree that there are many poorly designed inverters on the market, which suggests that its very necessary that correct testing with the appropriate equipment is carried out after installation.

 

Rob, the original poster, implied that he did not have the confidence to select and fit an inverter and asked for advice. It transpired that the power requirement was much less that originally assumed and I advised on a suitable and safe approach.

 

Mike

 

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There is no legal requirement to have a integrated 230v Inverter tested in a moving vehicle. Anyone can install one, even though the single built in 13a socket has zero safety devices, no RCD/MCB, safety cutout, over voltage, short circuit, etc. Absolutely nothing, not even a proper Earth and no legal requirement for any of it to be included, so how can it be tested??

 

I would like to know what regulations you are referring to??

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I am discussing the situation where an inverter is connected to multiple socket outlets in a motor home and connected via the protective circuits. In this situation it is considered a high voltage supply and thus the complete system should comply with the regulations. Any testing is on the complete system, necessary where significant modifications are made.

 

BS 7671:2008 +A3:2015, section 721

 

A new set of regulations come into effect from January next year, BS EN 1648-1:2018

 

Anyone can modify their own motor home electrical system but if a professional works for reward on the vehicle he/she should be qualified to do so and complete the work to the standards set out in the regulations.

 

Many of the low cost inverters on the market will not allow the MCB to function correctly when integrated into the motor home system feeding multiple outlets, a serious safety issue. Hence, with professional help, the need for selecting a suitable inverter, connecting it correctly into the motor home circuits and then carrying out tests to ensure everything operates correctly.

This does not seem an unreasonable approach to me and would seem the safest advice to anyone without the necessary skills in working with 230 ac systems.

 

A single outlet socket inverter of a reputable make connected to a one double insulated device is unlikely to have safety issues but once you have multiple outlets feeding various appliances its a different ball game.

 

Mike

 

 

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