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Remis front blinds, Fiat Ducato steering.


Brian Kirby

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Guest Brian Kirby
First: I have a Fiat Ducato based Burstner 'van, 2005, with the above blinds to cab door and windscreen. Van new April 2005. Used for trial trip in UK in June (Lakes etc) and extended trip through Spain/Portugal mid July - mid October. Blinds now showing signs of mildew on inside (i.e. van side) surfaces only. Most pronounced on one cab quarter light but present on all to some degree, including the windscreen blind. Have spoken to dealer who claims the is new to him, but who will pursue with Burstner and, if necessary, formalise a warranty claim. However, just in case mine is the only one ever heard of in the whole of Europe, has anyone else experienced this problem, please? Second - same 'van. Chassis is LWB Fiat 16 platform cab @ 3.4 tonnes (i.e. not Al-Ko). Van is low profile 6 metre long x 2.7 high. Tyres Michelin XC Camping. It wanders around on any road that is not virtually dead flat. It "tramlines", (follows wear grooves on the road), runs off raised road markings and suffers camber steering, i,e, tries to change course with the road camber. All this is a bit disconcerting on narrower roads with 40 tonners approaching. The effect is not gross, just a bit of a wander, but it requires constant vigilance over direction since narrow roads equal fine passing tolerances and little wanders can make a critical difference. Is this a characteristic of all Sevel vans? Is it a characteristic of the (not very impressive) XC Campings? Do others have similar experiences please? I've decided to get the tracking chacked, but can't see any telltale wear signs on the tyres. Mileage to date 5,000 approx (9,000 km). Many thanks. Brian
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Brian, Read your posting at 2200hrs. What a coincidence, we too are having problems with Remifront blinds. At the end of April 2005 a full set of blinds were purchased from a well known motorhome and caravan products Mail Order company. The blinds were promptly fitted to our Citroen Relay based motorhome. Following this we attended a ‘motorhome meet’ where many campers showed a lot of positive interest in the blinds. June/July was spent touring Britain followed by many shorter spells away. By September spots of mildew were noticed, like yours, mostly on the inside (accommodation side) surfaces of both door blinds and to a lesser extent on the windscreen blind. These spots increased in number and size and numerous blotches have now also formed. The mail order company was contacted a week ago. They have not heard of this problem before, but asked if we could email images showing the spots/blotches on the blinds. They said that they would then forward the images to Remi for the comments/observations. I will keep you posted as to the outcome.
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Guest Brian Kirby
Thanks Alan. Almost exactly our experience, and your description matches what we have on our blinds to a tee. The problem appears to be the fabric backing on the inside face, where under close examination, you can see the mold spores gathering in the open spaces in the weave. I think Remis have used the wrong type of fabric, or have used the fabric the wrong way around i.e smooth face in. We've had some condensation on the glass surface but no mold forms on the shiny outside bling face. I've never noticed any dampness on the inside of the blinds, so assume it is more humidity than actual moisture. However, at their prices you don't expect this type of problem within six months, if ever! Many thanks for the reply and, if anyone else has this experience, please do let us know. Brian
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Brian, thanks for your reply. I had already noted that the material on the inside of the blinds appears to be some type of woven fabric presumably capable of absorbing moisture generated within the living area, which in turn readily results in the formation of mould. I have on several occasions examined the shiny plastic outside surface of the blind, nearest to the windows, but have found no evidence of moisture or mould. I certainly agree with you that you should not expect this problem to occur, considering the price paid for the blinds. Cheers, Alan
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Guest Derek Uzzell
Brian/Alan: My Hobby (purchased in July 2005) also has REMIfront cab-blinds. So far they aren't showing signs of mildew, but I shan't be surprised if they do. As you point out, the pleated material used seems to be quite porous on the inwards-facing surface and will tend to retain the moisture that inevitably forms in motorhomes overnight unless the weather is very warm. If the blind is retracted in this moist state then a perfect breeding ground for mould will be formed between the folds of the pleats. So I shall be very interested in the responses you get from your vendors. I chose REMIfront blinds because the price as a Hobby factory option (about £250) was not too steep and because I thought they would be much more convenient and less space consuming than the traditional 'Silver Screens'. Well, they are certainly more convenient and less bulky, but they are hopeless for insulating the cab windows in cold weather. We're planning to experiment with removable curtains that will hang on the cab-interior side of the blinds to see how much that helps. The alternative (and definitely the most effective anti-condensation measure) would be to use an exterior insulated cover for the cab glass, but this would go against a tenet I hold dear - not to have to leave the vehicle if the weather outside is unpleasant when we stop for the night or set out in the morning. Brian: Presumably your motorhome is a Burstner T-585. There would be potential for road-surface sensitive steering if a motorhome had a short wheelbase, a lot of rear overhang and was heavily loaded at the back. But this is certainly not the case with your 'van's design, being built on Fiat's 3.7m lwb chassis and having a short overhang. Maladjusted steering geometry must be the prime suspect for your vehicle's twitchiness. When you get the geometry checked make sure it's done by someone competent and that they check not just the 'parallelism' (tracking) but also the camber angle of each front wheel. Also check that both front wheels are genuinely round and unbuckled(!!), that each wheel/tyre combination spins 'true' and is accurately balanced, and that the wheel bearings are OK. If the geometry turns out to be wrong (or even if it's proven to be correct) I suggest you then swap the front wheels for the rears. This would put tyres on the front that are certain to have a 'square' profile. Even though peculiar front-tyre tread wear may not be evident, if something is out of kilter with the steering then an unusual wear pattern is likely to have developed. If the problem is front-wheel/tyre related rather than geometric then swapping the current fronts to the back should at least stop the steering being affected. (That's unless you've got a complete set of duff wheels and/or duff Michelins, which is unlikely.) If the problem still persists, you might try picking a section of road that you know causes the vehicle to react adversely and see if playing around with the front tyre pressures makes any difference. XC Camping tyres are often run at very high pressures - anything up to 80psi - and, if that's the case with your 'van, then lowering the pressure might help. You don't say which motor your Burstner has (hence the weight on the front axle), but 60psi would seem about right based on Michelin's handbook-data. I'm sure 'wandering' is not an innate characteristic of motorhomes based on SEVEL chassis, nor of those fitted with XC Camping tyres. Your Burstner's chassis/tyre marriage is the norm and if the steering waywardness you describe were commonplace then there would have been a barrage of complaints about it. Best of luck - please let the forum know the outcome.
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Guest Brian Kirby
Alan, Derek Thanks for replies. The condensation problem can best be ameliorated with external, insulated, blinds - but probably won't be eliminated under all weather conditions. The problem is simple. You (hope to) generate warm air inside the vehicle, and warm air can carry more water vapour than cold air. You generate this water vapour inside the vehicle by cooking, washing, breathing, perspiring etc etc. Whereas there is some degree of permanenet ventilation, this is insufficient to eliminate vapour build up and the internal air gradually becomes saturated. This warm, moist air then circulates until it meets the surfaces of the single glazed screen and cab windows, which inevitably cool overnight. Somewhere, sometime (when/where depends upon actual relative humidities and internal surface temperatures), these surfaces will be below the dew point of the moist internal air, which will then dump its excess miisture onto cool surface. Best solution, warm the internal surfaces to above the dew point of the air. (Or air-con to remove the moisture) Since the vehicle interior is already warm, placing the insulation outside allows the glass temperature to rise towards the internal temperature, so limiting the condensation risk. Internal blinds cannot work with the same efficiency because a) they cannot prevent contact between the internal air and the screen, (there are necessary gaps etc around the edges), and b) by insulating the glass from internal warmpth they actually allow it's temperature to drop lower than it would be without insulation. Last point. The glass is a 100% vapour barrier: no other substance likely to be used for window blinds can provide this degree of vapour check. First law of insulation, always put the vapour barrier on the warm side of the insulant. Hence - external blinds win for cool/cold weather use on this score also. QED? Re the wandering, thanks again. I suspect the geometry is out, but wanted to check other people's experience before blaming this, as opposed to the tyres, for example. Answer to your question: Burstner T585, 2.8JTD 146hp, axles laden 1580kg front, 1710kg rear (from weighbridge). Tyres, on Michelin advice, 52 psi front, 54 psi rear for these weights. I actually run at 54 psi front and 56 psi rear to allow for load fluctuations. For reasons they are a little coy about, involving our continental cousin's profligate loading habits, Burstner/Fiat recommend 80 psi all round, but that shakes all yer stoppings out! Thanks again Brian
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Guest Phil Grindle
Brian Re your wandering steering I have experienced a similar problem with a 1999 Ducato and 58000 miles. The steering became heavy and the vehicle tended to wander even on level surfaces. The XC tyres were being worn on the inside edges. The Fiat garage diagnosed a worn steering rack and bushes. I was a bit surprised about that after only those miles but I couldn't argue. After it was done its just like new. Also replaced the tyres with the new Dunlop tyres. The ride is softer and the steering is very accurate. Hope this is helpful Regards
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Guest Derek Uzzell
Brian: A few years back, when I was doing translation work for Pilote on their User's Manual, I noticed that their converter's warranty had begun to include an obligatory check of a new motorhome's tracking at 1500km, with a strongly advised re-check at 20000km (both at the customer's expense I might add). This applied to all Pilote models whether based on Fiat, Mercedes or Renault and the requirement was emphasised 5 separate times throughout the Manual. Presumably, by making such a song and dance about it, it's fair to assume Pilote had evidence that these checks were important. Strange about the 80psi front and rear inflation pressures that Fiat recommend for SEVEL-based motorhomes fitted with 16" XC Camping tyres. Michelin's technical booklet actually says (for 15" and 16" XC Camping sizes) "For maximum load conditions when used on mainland Europe, it is recommended that the rear tyres are inflated to a pressure of 80psi". Unfortunately this statement has mutated and 80psi regularly seems to be quoted without any thought about its relevance. I own a Hobby and the Owner's Manual quotes 80psi (or 5.5bar) for the rear tyres on all their Fiat-based motorhomes fitted with XC Camping tyres: this includes their twin rear-axle models where 50psi for the rear tyres should be more than adequate. The magic 80psi has even found its way on to my Ford Transit-based Hobby that hasn't even got XC Camping tyres (though early examples had them). The driver's door-pillar carries an official Ford data-plate advising 43.5psi (3 bar) for the front tyres and 79.8 (5.5 bar) for the rears. The tyres actually fitted are Continental Vanco-8 with a design-maximum pressure of 70psi and 'ordinary' tyre valves and I'm currently using 46psi(F) and 60psi(R) based on data provided by Continental. The 3500kg FWD Ford platform-cab chassis Hobby use is now popular with other converters (Chausson, Dethleffs, Eriba, Eura-Mobil, Hymer, etc.) and all the examples I've seen, irrespective of the make of tyre fitted (and always with non-metal tyre-valves), bear the same Ford data-plate. I've had contact with Ford about this, making the point that putting a plate on their chassis that recommends elevated tyre pressures that neither the tyres nor valves fitted to that vehicle are designed to cope with is not a smart move in our litigious society if an accident results. The response I got was not encouraging and seemed to be formulated on the logic of "OK, it's our chassis, but it's been turned into a motorhome so it's no longer anything to do with Ford". At least I've tried...
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Guest Brian Kirby
Thank you all for your replies: lots of food for thought and I'll definitely get the steering geometry checked as we've only covered about 9,000km to date. Re your chassis, Derek, I think the perceived problem vis a vis Ford and their attitude, may stem from the European type approval legislation. This allows that where a vehicle is supplied incomplete to another person to finish, the type appraval certificate is completed by the supplier for the vehicle as supplied, but the person who completes the build is responsible for completing the certification procedure in respect of all subsequent modifications. Thus, Ford may supply a platform cab to Hobby, but Hobby build the motorhome body so should, as the manufacturer who completes the build, ensure that the Ford elements supplied are in all respects suitable for the vehicle as they have modified it, i.e. that the whole vehicle fully meets EC requirements. In your case I believe Hobby should have added a plate, superceding or supplementing the Ford plate, where the Ford plate has been rendered incorrect by the Hobby element of the build. If Hobby know the finished vehicle will exceed the safe loading for the tyres and valves as supplied (and they can have no excuse for not knowing), they should order from Ford chassis with appropriate tyres and valves, or throw away the Ford supply and fit their own. If I may suggest, I think you should attack Hobby, not Ford, for this deficiency since, from what you say, your vehicle may have a technically invalid type approval certificate. Who sold it originally? Kind regards and best of luck Brian
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Guest peter goddard
We have a Burstner T615 and have just returned from 6 weeks in France. After 18 months with the Remi screens I still don't like them as much as Silver Screens but they are easier to pull across just for one night stands. Unless we sleep with two windows open we get considable condensation on the front wind screen but so far no sign of mold on the Remis. Re steering: I drive quite a variety of large vehicles for a living and don't think the Ducato chassis is any worse than a Renault or Sprinter for handling although our van is quite sensitive to the draught created by HGV's when they pass us at speed. I have wondered how much of this is down to tyre pressures but have not yet got around to experimenting with differing pressures; it would be interesting to hear your views.
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Guest Brian Kirby
Peter Can't really claim any expertise on tyre pressures. Originally, the 'van was supplied at 5 bar, because that was the Fiat/Burstner recommendation. The first couple of thousand kilometers were completed in UK, mainly on motorways/dual carriageway roads, with only a few hundred miles on two lane roads. The wander wasn't noticeable, but the very hard suspension was! I therefore loaded up, visited the local weighbridge, got the axle weights and contacted Michelin for their recommendations. They suggested lower pressures to match the actual axle loadings and, since the load and its distribution vary from day to day as you travel around, I've assumed slightly higher loads and adopted correspondingly higher pressures, as above, to be on the safe side. The wander only became apparent in France on the more minor "D" roads which, being relatively narrow (though still wider than many the our UK "A" roads near us!), and carrying quite a few heavy trucks, have developed longitudinal wear grooves. This grooving is only slight, but the groove centres are wider apart than the track of the Fiat chassis, and the 'van seems to hunt from one to another as you go along. Not too much of a problem until you meet the inevitable 40 tonner in a narrow patch. The result is that you can't really take your eyes from the road for an instant. If you do, (mirrors, for example) when you look back again, the 'van has wandered nearer to, or away from, the centre. I can't detect the usual tell-tale feathering of the tread blocks, so suspect the misalignment is only slight. Once the wander is noticed, however, you become more aware. On flat, smooth, tarmac all is OK. Wear ridges, raised road markings, (even in one place a long groove only an inch or so wide caused by something dragging on the surface), cause the wander. I have also become aware of camber steer as well. Where a straight road has changes in camber, the 'van wants to follow the camber. Again, only minor, but it just doesn't hold its line. I do experience the slipstream push-pull from HGVs, also some sensitivity to cross winds, but no more than I had expected with so much sail area in play. Hope this helps Regards Brian
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  • 3 weeks later...
Guest Maureen Smith
We too are experiencing mould on the Remis windscreen blind in our 3 month old AutoTrail Cheyenne. We have just returned from an AutoTrail rally where another couple,who bought their AutoTraail Dakota at the same time as ourselves, are also experiencing the same thing. It's good to know we are not the only ones with the problem as it gives us a bit more 'clout' when getting the problem redressed. Regards, Maureen.
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Guest Brian Kirby
Thanks Maureen et al. Unfortunately, I've temporarily lost my access to the forum, as I let my subscription expire! Naturally I've since renewed, but until that comes "on line" I only see strings where I checked the reply notification box. There's a lesson to you all!!! However, since it seems the Remisfront blinds may be a source of trouble, I wonder if a new string could be started by some kind soul, dealing only with that issue? Then we can all keep abreast of the problem and how common it becomes. I may be a cynic, but if the price Remis charges for these bears any relationship to the cost of the materials (yes, I know, but it must happen sometimes!), and the problem does prove widespread, they won't be falling over themselves to keep replacing the fabric element in perpetuity - and we shan't want to try selling our motorhomes in a few years time with blinds with a reputation for mildew, and no curtains to use as an alternative. Therefore, as Mauren implies, a log of those affected may prove quite an advantage in due course. Regards to all Brian
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  • 3 weeks later...
Brian, Further to my two earlier replies (26/10/2005 and 27/10/2005) I have now received a reply from Riversway Leisure from whom I purchased my full set of Remifront Blinds. As a result of looking at the Digital Images, which I emailed to them, they said that it is clearly evident to them that the Blinds are ‘going mouldy’ They continued by saying that unfortunately as a Company they (or their suppliers) cannot take responsibility for the damp conditions in my motorhome. They continued by suggesting that to prevent further damage to the blinds I could purchase one of the many moisture trap products that are currently on the market. In a subsequent telephone conversation the Director said that the Company could not agree to any claim that the goods are ‘not fit for the purpose’ as mould on the blinds does not stop them from being used to keep the light out, as is intended. The Director also said that he could not agree to a replacement or refund. In addition the Director suggested that I could take the matter up with Remis, for which purpose he has provided me with their email address. They have also said that I could try applying a small amount of sodium bicarbonate solution to a few spots of mould to see they can be removed. However I am not prepared to do so, at this stage. I must say that I am very disappointed with the reply from Riversway Leisure. I am not sure which way I should now proceed, any suggestions would be more than welcome. In the meantime, may I suggest that any motorhome owners who are thinking of purchasing Remifront Blinds, should not do so until such times as Remis have come up with a material on the inside of the blinds that does not absorb moisture and subsequently results in the production of mould. Regards, Alan
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Guest Brian Kirby
Alan See also posting under "Remis (Remisfront) cab blinds", which I made 25/11/05 to get rid of the steering issue in this posting. I haven't heard from my dealer/Burstner, but I think the "circulation" of Forum may be a bit too limited to get a fulsome response. I think perhaps a letter to MMM, with a pic of a mouldy blind, may get a more comprehensive response, and rather fewer of the "I havent got that problem" type of reply. Why do they bother?? Can't really lay the blame on anyone in writing (it'd never get published!), but I doubt too many people will wish to pay £300+ for blinds if they knew they may go mouldy! That thought may get the suppliers, or even the manufacturer, to sit up and take notice, and at least offer some explanation. Incidentally, I got no maintenance guidance, did you? I think perhaps a conversation with the MMM Ed is a necessary precursor, to see what they could agree to publish, and where. It will also need someone to log and co-ordinate any replies (in turn necessitating someone's postal or e-mail address being published in the mag), so that respondents can be contacted. What do you think? Regards Brian PS To avoid boring everyone else, e-mail me direct on the.kirbys@talktalk.net
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  • 4 weeks later...
Guest TRIXIE
Hello forum members I too have just discovered mould in my blinds which are 6 months old. We do use a dehumidifier so it should not have happened. I had no instructions on how to car for these. Has anyone successfully removed this mould from their blinds. thankyou Trixie
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Guest Brian Kirby
Trixie Are your blinds definitely the Remis blinds? If so, what are they on (vehicle etc) and when did you get it/them? I think we're all holding off attacking the mildew, since Remis provide no maintenance instructions. Most available products (at least the ones I've been able to find) require the material to be immersed. However, that requires removal of the blind fabric, and - you've guessed - the blinds do not seem to be made so that the fabric can be removed. Damage therefore seems to be likely. Also, certain types of plastics are degraded by certain of the bleaches etc liable to work on the mildew. As the blind material is, in part, a plastic film of unknown type, the chemical assault may clear the blind along with the mildew. Try complaining then!! Therefore, please keep a sharp eye on MMM for a letter and request for resopnse we hope to get published, and in the meantime contact the supplier of your blinds for advice and to register a complaint. Regards Brian
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Guest Trixie
Hello brian Thanks for the reply I asked for remis blinds to match the remis ones supplied on the original van so i would hope that that is what was supplied. as I have only just noticed this i will be contacting the installer to confirm. They are cab blinds fitted to my ducato base vehicle motorhome. Trixie
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Guest Trixie
Hello brian Thanks for the reply I asked for remis blinds to match the remis ones supplied on the original van so i would hope that that is what was supplied. as I have only just noticed this i will be contacting the installer to confirm. They are cab blinds fitted to my ducato base vehicle motorhome. Trixie
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Guest Trixie
Hello brian Thanks for the reply I asked for remis blinds to match the remis ones supplied on the original van so i would hope that that is what was supplied. as I have only just noticed this i will be contacting the installer to confirm. They are cab blinds fitted to my ducato base vehicle motorhome. Trixie
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Guest Brian Kirby
Trixie You may have posted three times - I got 17 confirmations! Tip - once you've ticked the box for a reply notification, it stays ticked. You only need to tick this once, more ticks gets you more notifications! You have six month old Remifront blinds on a Ducato based motorhome. These are now mildewed. However, you said they were the same as on an original motorhome. Do you mean you had these blinds on a motorhome you no longer have (sold or whatever), liked them, and wanted them on your new (replacement) motorhome; or that six months ago you replaced a set of blinds that were fitted to your present motorhome when you first got it? If the former, did you get mildew on the blinds of the original motorhome? If the latter, were the original set of blinds replaced because of mildew? Regards Brian
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Guest trixie
hello Brian Thanks for the ticking tip. My inbox is unindated as well. LOL. There is no way to delete is there.? The blinds to the cab only were purchased & fitted mid June. I asked that they matched the blinds that were fitted to the motorhome when they supplied it new about 9 months earlier so they should have been the same. However they are not quite the same. The ones fitted to the original van seem to be coated on both sides. Window side very shiny & the habitation side not so shiny. The cab blinds window side are shiny like the ones fitted to the original van. But the cab blinds facing inside are not coated and seem to be inferior & feel like a type of papery fabric. It is the inside that has this mouldy mottled appearance if it is mould & not any thing else. These were ok up to a couple of days ago. There is no evidence of any damp anywhere else in the van. Clothing, upholstery, bedding etc is all fine.No musty damp smell. It is very strange. Hope that explains it better. Trixie
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Guest Brian Kirby
Hello again Trixie I don't think you can delete the ticks, so to speak! Sorry: bear of little brain! Afraid I'm still a bit unclear. You had wanted cab blinds to match blinds fitted elsewhere in your new motorhome, and the dealer fitted the Remifront blinds. Is that correct? If so, have you examined the other blinds for mildew? Also, do you know the make of the other blinds? What you describe is exactly what we experienced. It seems to be caused by condensation on the internal face of the blinds. Unfortunately the rough, hairy, texture of the habitation face of the Remis blinds makes the condensation impossible to detect. If you look through a magnifying glass, you'll probably see that the mould runs under the textured facing. If you attack it with a brush you damage the facing, but still don't shift the mould. Bleach will kill the mould, and remove the discolouration, but the chlorine may also destroy the plastic. I have since been advised that the blinds are only for privacy and that external, insulated, screen covers should be used whenever there is a risk of condensation. However, all our use was in summer and early autumn, when it was not cold, and no one can tell me how you tell in advance if the night will get cold enough for condensation just before dawn! My conclusion is that the product is not really suitable for normal motorhome use i.e it is not fit for purpose. However, as there is no claim that the blinds do anything other than provide black out and privacy, which they do even when mouldy, that point is not easily established! Stay in touch Brian
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