Replace leisure battery.

[briang]

Hi,

My 2 year old Varta AGM battery is failing so I need to replace it. Having read all the information on this website I am trying to decide the best replacement path.

My setup at the moment is a Schaudt ELB119 Elektroblock and the LRM 1218 solar controller with two 120w solar panels. I am often off grid for 3/4 days at a time but rarely stay in one place more than 1 night. Demand is quite low with LED lighting and a 35w tv for around 90 minutes an evening. In the winter the Truma combi 6E heater fan will be the biggest user.

 

Now, do I buy 2 VARTA LFD75s giving me 150ah that fits in with the x10 rule, leaving 20ah for the starter battery. The ebl119 has an 18amp charger. Or could I get away with a single VARTA LFD90?

Would 2 LFD90s put too much strain on the EBL119?

Fitting is under the driver’s seat on a 2017 Ducato.

 

Any suggestions would be really helpful.

 

[aandncaravan]

briang - 2019-01-25 2:37 PM

 

Hi,

My 2 year old Varta AGM battery is failing so I need to replace it. Having read all the information on this website I am trying to decide the best replacement path.

My setup at the moment is a Schaudt ELB119 Elektroblock and the LRM 1218 solar controller with two 120w solar panels. I am often off grid for 3/4 days at a time but rarely stay in one place more than 1 night. Demand is quite low with LED lighting and a 35w tv for around 90 minutes an evening. In the winter the Truma combi 6E heater fan will be the biggest user.

 

Now, do I buy 2 VARTA LFD75s giving me 150ah that fits in with the x10 rule, leaving 20ah for the starter battery. The ebl119 has an 18amp charger. Or could I get away with a single VARTA LFD90?

Would 2 LFD90s put too much strain on the EBL119?

Fitting is under the driver’s seat on a 2017 Ducato.

 

Any suggestions would be really helpful.

 

 

Sorry to hear the AGM battery has only lasted 2 years, but your experience is typical of what we have heard on the forums lately. You will get much better battery lifetime with an LFD90 on the Alternator charger system you will have installed. The LFD90's will be more fully charged than the AGM's ever were, giving you greater real capacity.

 

 

The EBL 119, set on the Lead/Gel setting, charges wet/flooded batteries very effectively, more so than previous EBL units.

Because of this and the fact the Varta LFD90 places less load on a charger than conventional batteries, you should be fine with 2 x LFD90's, especially with the help of 240w Solar.

 

However, you are at the upper limits of the charger so try not to discharge the batteries too low, we would suggest you regard 12.1v as the absolute lowest limit with about 12.3v to 12.4v as the 'norm'.

Remember that when reading voltages to assess a batteries State of Charge (SOC), we are talking unloaded voltages not under load.

 

 

The other day I saw an article saying that getting the last 20% into a normal habitation battery with the few amps from Solar is now being recognised as quite an uphill struggle. The battery usually charges up to 80% quite quickly, but slows right down, struggling to get the last 20% and especially the last 10%, and extra especially if the battery is more than a year or so old. This effect is exaggerated if the battery bank is comprised of multiple batteries.

 

Whether that is true or not, if any battery will allow Solar to apply that last 20%, it's going to be an LFD90 with it's 70% better electrical flow/efficiency due to superior technology.

So in real terms a 100% full LFD90 might give quite an advantage over the 85% of the old 'fully charged' AGM's you have been used to?

 

 

As always, bear in mind that all new batteries require several charge/discharge cycles to reach full capacity. Some of the cheaper ones start life with only 80% of their quoted 100AH, even though they are fully charged.

 

Change the EBL 119 charge setting from AGM to Lead/Gel only when OFF EHU.

 

[colin]

I'm guessing that like my set up you need a zero maintenance battery, as it's a PITA to check the fluid levels?

[briang]

Thanks Allan for a quick and helpful reply. Your advice is what I was hoping for. Have been studying all of this on your website which is full of the most helpful information I have come across. Will also be putting in fuses/circuit breakers in the solar cables for safety and convenience in isolating the panels when doing the work. Travelworld obviously don’t do this even though they charge an amazing amount for installation.

I am also thinking of fitting a Victron BMV so I can monitor the system and ensure the batteries are cared for.

Again many thanks.

[briang]

colin - 2019-01-25 7:17 PM

 

I'm guessing that like my set up you need a zero maintenance battery, as it's a PITA to check the fluid levels?

 

Yes. Can’t imagine having to removing the seat on regular basis to check levels.

[briang]

One other query.

Reading the instruction manual for the LRM1218 it details changing the charging profile in this as well as the EBL119.

“Operation

The solar charge regulator has no controls.

The LRM 1218 solar regulator may have to be readjusted when the battery type is changed.”

 

For the Varta LFD I assume I set the switches on the regulator for lead-acid. Switch S1 to 2 and S2 to B.

 

Many thanks

 

[aandncaravan]

briang - 2019-01-25 8:06 PM

 

One other query.

Reading the instruction manual for the LRM1218 it details changing the charging profile in this as well as the EBL119.

“Operation

The solar charge regulator has no controls.

The LRM 1218 solar regulator may have to be readjusted when the battery type is changed.”

 

For the Varta LFD I assume I set the switches on the regulator for lead-acid. Switch S1 to 2 and S2 to B.

 

Many thanks

 

Hello yes, sorry, should have said that. also set the LRM1218 to lead acid.

 

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

briang - 2019-01-25 7:43 PM

 

colin - 2019-01-25 7:17 PM

 

I'm guessing that like my set up you need a zero maintenance battery, as it's a PITA to check the fluid levels?

 

Yes. Can’t imagine having to removing the seat on regular basis to check levels.

 

Fiat will not have designed your 2017 Ducato to carry a battery (or batteries) beneath the cab seats.

 

Although Varta LFD batteries are ‘non-maintainable’ - ie. their electrolyte cannot be topped up - they do have the design-capability to be fitted with a vent-tube that can be led to the outside air.

 

It’s quite likely that, because your motorhome’s original battery was AGM-type, there is no vent-tube already in place that you could connect the Varta LFD batteries to. So, if you decided to fit a vent-tube, you’d almost certainly need to drill a hole through the floor beneath the seat.

 

Venting Varta LFD batteries was discussed here:

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Varta-LFD90-Vent-or-not-/48663/

 

[ageingandrew]

Please excuse me for butting in here Briang, I will soon be looking to replace my motorhome leisure battery so your situation is of interest to me.

 

I assume that your AGM battery is 95Ah or similar. 2 years life from an AGM sounds really poor. I have a Banner AGM in my van; it’s been there for a little over 5 years so far; its performance is not what it used to be but is enough for 2 consecutive days & nights off grid every now and again; I have no solar power.

 

My reading of your battery usage is that you only stay 1 night at each place; you have a lot of solar and are charging with an LRM1218 presumably switched to AGM voltages, and your alternator charges the battery when you move on.

Do you ever use EHU to provide a longer term charge?

Are you living in the van full time?

What else in the van is powered by the leisure battery, do you have a compressor fridge, for example?

 

Are you certain that the battery is failing and not just in need of a good charge?

[briang]

No problem butting in as I hope my situation may help.

Using the aandncaravan website has helped me a great deal and Allan’s reply above helped clarify my thinking. I always put the Motorhome on ehu for 48 hours before leaving home. The battery in question is a Varta LA95. The Motorhome was purchased new from Travelworld who also installed the solar system consisting of two 120w PV Logic flexible panels and the Schaudt LRM1218 controller. I happily assumed Travelworld had installed everything correctly even though they handed over to me with the solar 15amp fuse missing from the ebl119 front panel.

 

Following the advice from Allan I have had a look at the dip switches on the lrm1218. The way this has been installed means you cannot see the switches without the use of a mirror. I now find they have never been changed from the factory default position of lead acid. Whether this has damaged the battery or not I am not sure. Certainly when if France I relied on solar much more than over here. I have put them in the AGM2 position and will now fully charge the battery and then monitor its performance when away off grid for a couple of days. Just got to look out for a window of relatively bright sky for to check performance. I still want to install two batteries so as I need to get two matching, I expect to use the LDF90s..

[aandncaravan]

Briang, I suspect that the LRM 1218 not being set correctly won't have shortened the life of the AGM, by much as there have been several postings on here the last few months of prematurely failed AGM's.

 

By 'premature' failure, don't forget that AGM's are sold as "double the cost, double the life" batteries so when a Wet/flooded Varta LFD at £105 lasts 5 years, you have every right to expect 10 years from a £210 AGM battery.

 

 

I would suggest a 5 year old Banner, where the owner notices it's 'Not what it was', has also expired using the industry '80% rule'.

5 years for such an expensive battery, that only achieved half it's expected life, isn't any better an advert for AGM's than your LA95, IMO.

 

 

But to give you even more recent evidence of how rubbish AGM's can be :

 

I helped Martin with a 2016 Frankia in the week that had a mix of Schaudt and Buttner electronics and 3 x 120 Buttner AGM's. Except, that although the batteries were labelled at 120Ah that value was using the C100 (100 hour) discharge test which has the effect of inflating the battery capacity versus the usual tougher C20 discharge rate.

 

When you looked at the detail, the batteries were only 95Ah (C20). Bit naughty of Buttner.

 

 

All 3 AGM's had expired long ago but the Solar had masked how bad they were. I would guess they had probably dropped below 80% capacity after just 18 month lives.

When you consider the van also had 360 watts of Solar, it is unlikely the batteries ever did anything but shallow discharge. A very efficient Solar set-up it was too, one of the best professional ones we have seen.

 

 

One point of note was that the factory had set the 'capacity meter's' total battery capacity at 120Ah x 3 = 360Ah, yet the reality was that the battery bank started off with a 'real' 95Ah x 3 = 285Ah capacity.

 

Which I think explained why his Buttner 'Capacity' meter had never made any sense from new and what he came to see us about in the first instance.

 

 

 

[ageingandrew]

Hello Briang,

 

Crikey, 2 days on EHU through an EBL, 240W solar and the alternator charging sounds like a lot of charging to me. I can't help but think you have something consuming a lot of current somewhere in the van or the batteries are not getting fully charged. The LA90 has a 4 year warranty so should be a quality product.

 

I frequently worry about my battery after reading forum posts. I have a single Banner AGM 95Ah; after a few days on EHU it'll easily last me a couple days off grid in the New Forest, and that's with lighting (all LED), fridge electronics (cooling on gas), water heater/pump and blown heating on occasionally. I guess I should stop worrying and stop reading all the scare stories on the internet.

 

I hope you sort your problem out soon.

 

Regards,

Andrew

[aandncaravan]

ageingandrew - 2019-01-29 10:22 AM

 

Hello Briang,

 

Crikey, 2 days on EHU through an EBL, 240W solar and the alternator charging sounds like a lot of charging to me. I can't help but think you have something consuming a lot of current somewhere in the van or the batteries are not getting fully charged. The LA90 has a 4 year warranty so should be a quality product.

 

I frequently worry about my battery after reading forum posts. I have a single Banner AGM 95Ah; after a few days on EHU it'll easily last me a couple days off grid in the New Forest, and that's with lighting (all LED), fridge electronics (cooling on gas), water heater/pump and blown heating on occasionally. I guess I should stop worrying and stop reading all the scare stories on the internet.

 

I hope you sort your problem out soon.

 

Regards,

Andrew

 

 

Andrew, Briang starts his post with,

"My 2 year old Varta AGM battery is failing so I need to replace it".

 

The premature failure of his AGM battery isn't an Internet scare story, but fact.

 

 

Not sure where you picked up the info that leads you to say " Crikey, 2 days on EHU through an EBL, 240W solar and the alternator charging sounds like a lot of charging to me. I can't help but think you have something consuming a lot of current somewhere in the van"

because the thread says -

"I am often off grid for 3/4 days at a time ..........."

 

On a single battery 3 - 4 days is pretty good going, I would think..

 

 

 

[aandncaravan]

The 2017 model Frankia with the Buttner electronics, mentioned above, returned today to have the 3 duff AGM batteries replaced.

 

After swapping the old AGM batteries for Yuasa L36-EFB, brought to Martin by the customer, the task of switching all the different charging systems to the new battery technology began, starting with the Solar regulator.

We found this was already set for Wet Acid batteries, not AGM and had been since it left the factory.

Next up we tackled the 45amp x 2 Smart Alternator chargers, again they were set to Wet Acid, not AGM. When the engine was started to test them, the habitation battery voltage went up to 14.5v with the current at a massive 80amps into the 3 Gel batteries.

This fairly quickly backed down to 'just' 40 amps as the batteries were already about 80% full, but a very impressive Alternator charge.

 

Finally the mains chargers :- the Schaudt version and the Buttner mains unit were checked.

While the Schaudt EBL 213 had been set to AGM, the Buttner auxilary charger was set to Wet acid.

 

The AGM batteries we removed were tested and had very little capacity, down to less than 20Ah,

I think the wrong charging profiles must have been key to the 2 1/2 year life.

 

When we checked the Buttner 'Battery Computer' it was also set to Wet Lead acid which explains the false readings that it has displayed since new as the higher AGM 13.0 voltages it would have 'seen' may have confused it when it was expecting the12.7v of a conventional battery.

 

Now all the settings are in sync with the batteries, and the correct battery capacity configured, it will hopefully start making sense.

Very impressive electrical set-up, high quality, powerful and full featured. Shame the factory sent it out incorrectly configured.

 

 

 

Then Martin had Sue's 2018 Hymer to look at with exactly the same issue. Sue had travelled up to North Wales from Southend because the 'Battery Computer', this time Votronic, wasn't making sense since she had the standard single AGM battery removed and 3 x 120Ah Gel's fitted last October. Two trips to the Dealers had found no issues.

This Hymer, Merc Chassis with Euro6, also had a Smart Alternator charger but on this vehicle it was a Schaudt 12145 unit.

 

On testing everything we soon realised that the Alternator charge voltage was still set for an AGM's 14.8v, but the mains charge and Solar had been switched over to Gel.

As the mileage covered since October was quite high it was likely that the Gel batteries had suffered from being charged at such a high 14.8v not the 14.3v prefferred.

At near £750 for the 3 batteries it was a clear warranty issue that we didn't want to risk invalidating.

 

We therefore prepared a case for Sue, talked to the fitters concerned with Sue, who to their very great credit 'held their hands up' and said they would sort it all out for Sue.

 

 

So two good results, both of which demonstrate the importance of checking/setting the battery profiles.

We would suggest they are checked at least when the batteries are ever removed, don't assume the factory or the Dealer/fitters always get it right.

 

 

 

[aandncaravan]

Sue's 2018 Hymer mentioned in the last post above has been back to the fitters.

 

She emailed yesterday to say it has all been sorted out. So well done that workplace in Doncaster, who we hold in high regard and they have proved that is deserved.