samnkeez Posted May 8, 2017 Share Posted May 8, 2017 I have heard that some continental campsites, particularly in France can sometimes have reverse polarity on the electric hook ups. I have hooked up many times over the last couple of years with no noticeable issues. Can somebody please explain to me n Layman terms if at all possible, what problems this might cause to my leisure battery and / or the electrical items that I may be running from the 3 pin socket in my Moho. I only ever use hook up if it is an integral part of the cost of a campsite as most of the time my solar panels are more than adequate to charge the leisure batteries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted May 8, 2017 Share Posted May 8, 2017 Try our webpage : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/reverse-polarity.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted May 8, 2017 Share Posted May 8, 2017 samkeenz As you own a 2015 Roller-Team motorhome I’m tempted to reply “None” to your question about what problems reverse-polarity might cause to your leisure battery and/or the electrical items that you might be running from the 3-pin sockets in your motorhome. I was going to refer you to the aandncaravanservices webpage, but Allan beat me to it. If you want to get down and dirty (and risk losing the will to live ;-) ) you could also wade through these earlier forum discussions http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/search/query.asp?action=search&searchforumid=all&keywords=reverse+polarity&author=&days=&Submit=Search Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted May 8, 2017 Share Posted May 8, 2017 aandncaravan - 2017-05-08 1:10 PM Try our webpage : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/reverse-polarity.php A small edit is required to this webpage as shown below ..................... "Note the test is only relevant with Mains connected, as it uses the 240v supply to trip the switch Off/Down. The RCD will not 'trip' down if there is not 230v power at the RCD unit." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 I am not sure which part of the text should be changed. Only issue I can see, is the use of both 230v and 240v to describe the mains voltage. Interestingly, although I thought the UK was 'harmonising' mains voltages to the Euro 230v, a Caravan site at the weekend was supplying 252v in to the van, the highest we have ever seen. The site was virtually empty so I would imagine when all 16a power points were being used it would be nearer 230v? The lowest we recorded last year was at a site in Bridgenorth in August of 210v, although someone reported seeing 193v. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 Allan you keep referring to live and neutral in your article as positive and negative, or live +/ neutral -. I'm not being funny or anything as I'm sure you know this but positives and negatives are DC, AC is always just line AC or live and neutral. Maybe you're trying to simplify it for non techies, but it makes you look like you don't know the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 Perhaps I should have been more explicit and asked for the reference to 240 volt to be changed to agree with all the other 230 volt references in the article. Having two voltages quoted is confusing for the uninitiated, the very people the webpage is trying to help, don't you agree? I didn't comment on the replacement of Live and Neutral with Positive and Negative, but perhaps like Charles I should have. Sorry to be a bit pedantic, but information pages to help with the basics, should really try to avoid confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 Regarduing AC voltage harmonisation, this link may be of interest http://www.schneider-electric.co.uk/en/faqs/FA144717/ (Returning to the original ‘reverse polarity’ enquiry, is everybody comfortable telling samkeenz (in simple layman terms) “Don’t worry about it”?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 Yes don't worry. Mine is reversed now on a site in Spain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 Derek Uzzell - 2017-05-10 8:11 AM (Returning to the original ‘reverse polarity’ enquiry, is everybody comfortable telling samkeenz (in simple layman terms) “Don’t worry about it”?) Yes...it hasn't concerned me in almost 30 years of motorhoming across many countries. The main safety issue where there is real increased risk is in playing around inside a still-connected electrical device, something one shouldn't/wouldn't do under any polarity anyway. (Two points of clarification: Whilst it has already been pointed out that modern vans and electrical equipment should work under either polarity, there has been at least one recent occasion discussed on here of an (Eberspacher?) heater not working on "reversed polarity", something that mystified us all! Whilst we use the term "reversed polarity", this is somewhat of a misnomer. The UK wiring regulations require wiring live and neutral to specific pins in an assymetrical plug/socket where the plug can be inserted in only one way. Those abroad may not, such that live and neutral may be quite legally connected in any one of two (reversed) configurations, and variation would be considered quite normal. Indeed, the commonly used Schuko socket/plug is symmetrical, and allows the plug to be inserted in two different, reversed planes - thus "polarity" at a connected device can't be pre-defined. "Reversed polarity" is really only "non-UK polarity" and has been lived with on the continent for years (albeit generally with double-pole switching if and where switches are provided)). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 Derek, that is interesting. I had understood that as changes were made within UK Power industry over the next few years they were going to adopt a policy of Voltage control close to 230v, which would still be within the UK 240v + or - standard. In other words while the standard was 240 + 6% or - 10%, a voltage nearer to 230v was more likely to be delivered on the grid, but the link you post makes no mention of this. We repair a Continental built charger that has components rated at 220v, and these sometimes show signs of 'overvoltage damage', presumably from the likes of the 252v we measured at one site recently? I had hoped that the harmonisation I thought was happening, might reduce the failures. We have also noted higher than ideal mains supply voltages from some of the budget Inverters. One was rated at 220v but actually output 279v. Not a reverse polarity issue, but in real world usage voltages are more likely to be an issue than polarity. The device in the photo below costs around £5 and plugs into a 13a socket (with an adapter) or directly into a Continental Schuko socket and shows the mains voltage (or Inverter output) on the vehicle high voltage side. The photo shows the voltage currently being delivered into our house as of the time of this post. They are also a good instant visual check that the EHU hasn't tripped as well as a guide that a Generator output is in tolerance, etc. Been selling them for about 4 years now, without any reports of failures, works on either polarity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 Derek Uzzell - 2017-05-10 8:11 AM (Returning to the original ‘reverse polarity’ enquiry, is everybody comfortable telling samkeenz (in simple layman terms) “Don’t worry about it”?) I personally have had two recent issues with Reversed Polarity; the first being the Eberspächer heater in my previous Duetto would not work at all on mains and the second is that the neon light for the electric hot plate in my present Warwick Duo glowes faintly all the time, even when switched off. The choice for samkeenz is to either not bother about RP and enjoy a degree of uncertainty about the workings and safety of his equipment, or follow best practice and not run the risks of confusion or reduced safety. What is all this fuss about? Just ensure that RP if encountered is corrected and then there is no issue. It is an easy matter to test for RP and an easy matter to correct it if found (make a short RP correcting lead, or maybe just turn a continental plug upside down, or try a different outlet socket to find one which is OK, or even fit a RP switch in the van). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 Spospe your neon light must be grounded to earth not neutra,l and it's lighting up with reverse polarity because it's getting a live feed THROUGH the element. It would fail an insulation test. I once had a coldroom light neon indicator wired to earth the same and I traced the earth fault to the neon. I suspect the reverse polarity heater trouble people have is because the heater uses earth for something instead of neutral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverback Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 hi all, just thought i would chuck something into the mix, toured Iceland, Norway, Denmark,holland, Spain etc, came across RP in all these countries, i have an adapter so used this but sometimes it did not reverse it back, tried the upside down method to no avail so just used it with RP,......so my question is this... how does this happen ? is the live coming down the earth? are there 2 lives being used? i never had time to rewire my adapter to earth but will do next time, any ideas? regards Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 I believe that in some parts of Norway (not sure about Sweden or Finland) that a 230 volt supply is produced by means of two 115 volt supplies connected back to back. This would probably explain the apparent RP issues. The Caravan and Motorhome Club specifically warns about the possible lack of earthing at some Norwegian camp sites and advises asking the site warden to demonstrate the supply safety if in doubt (they do not say have this should be done). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 Must be the same as the yellow 110v tool transformers, earth is a centre tap of the transformer, there is no neutral just 2 lives or an AC line output of 2 x 55v Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 Charles - 2017-05-10 2:42 PM ...I suspect the reverse polarity heater trouble people have is because the heater uses earth for something instead of neutral. The refusal of an Eberspacher “Airlectric” 230V heating appliance to function if a mains-supply’s ‘polarity’ is reversed was discussed in some depth in this 2013 forum thread. http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Hints-and-Tips/Reverse-polarity-points/33356/ Other than the fact that the appliance fails to work and that Eberspacher (seemingly) acknowledges that there is a polarity-related issue, the cause of the problem was never satisfactorily resolved. Logically the “Airlectric” appliance should be expected to be polarity insensitive; in practice it is. The Roller-Team motorhome owned by samnkeez (the original poster) won’t have an “Airlectric” appliance nor an in-built electric hot-plate, so the particular polarity-related issues experienced by spospe regarding those items won’t apply to samnkeez. It’s been said on this forum often enough in the past, but I agree with spospe that - if the spectre of ‘reverse polarity’ is going to give a motorcaravanner sleepless nights - he/she should do the obvious and check for reverse-polarity at the 230V service-pedestal and correct it if found. Even if reverse-polarity itself is of no concern, it’s still useful to be able to confirm whether a 230V power-outlet is ‘live’ and properly earthed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave R1664232361 Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 As an electrician, I agree with a lot on the AandA website but it does not mention the fact that the equipment could still be live if the fuse blows when the supply is reversed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 Dave R, That exact scenario of fuse failure leaving a length of wire 'live' is not really any different/more dangerous than powering a device off at the switch which also leaves a potentially long cable run that is still 'live'. No one sensible is going to open up a device still plugged into the Mains and put their fingers on bare wires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted May 14, 2017 Share Posted May 14, 2017 Since when have humans ever been “sensible”? https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/17/coroner-warns-of-dangers-after-man-electrocuted-in-bath-while-charging-phone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted May 14, 2017 Share Posted May 14, 2017 Robinhood - 2017-05-10 9:50 AM.......................... "Reversed polarity" is really only "non-UK polarity" and has been lived with on the continent for years (albeit generally with double-pole switching if and where switches are provided)). Yes, but also with double pole MCBs/RCDs/RCBOs at the consumer units. So if an MCB trips on overload, or the RCD/MCBO trips on earth leakage, power on the consumer side of the unit is cut on both live and neutral circuits. This leaves the system within the van "safe" - but not wholly foolproof. As Robin says, there is no inherent risk to the user, or to equipment in use (including battery chargers) from "reversed polarity" itself. The only risk arises when something fails to work when switched on, and someone goes to investigate with the van still connected to the EHU. Unplug the EHU, preferably at the bollard, before investigating any mains fault. As Derek's link demonstrates, fools do exist, albeit some graduate to the Darwin club as a consequence, so removing their genes from the fool pool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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