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Running a Fridge on Gas on the Move?


aandncaravan

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This week we have had two requests for help because of a burnt connector in an Elektroblock and an overheating plug/socket in a Nordelettronica Fuseboad on the Fridge 12v circuits.

 

The cost of putting the first right is about £130 and the second about £240, to which there was a noticable 'deep breath'.

 

We therefore suggested that one option is to bin the ability to run the Fridge on 12v and use Gas while on the move.

Both retorted with something like,

" but running on Gas is expensive and 12v Alternator power is free".

 

That isn't true. The Fridge uses only tiny amounts of Gas, probably little more (or maybe even less) than the extra Diesel the engine uses to power the Fridge.

If you put a load on the Alternator, it will put a load on the engine which will use more Fuel.

 

We tested the current used by a Fridge/Freezer a while ago and were surprised to find in used 17amps, add-on the low efficiency of an Alternator and that is definitely '"not Free".

It is significant extra Diesel that will be burned on a long run down to Spain.

 

Much is made of the alleged 'Hazard' of running a Fridge on the move, but LPG car drivers don't turn off the Gas before they drive off and neither do I turn off my highly inflammable Petrol supply in my car before I drive.

 

The huge number of Cars involved in accidents over the last 50 years is staggering, yet I know of only one fire as a result of escaping petrol. Yet petrol pipes are all around the engine bay with red hot exhaust manifold and hot engine. Before anyone tries to include Zafiras, like many of that type, were electrical fires.

 

The risk really is miniscule, but obviously one that the suppliers of Gas safety systems exagerate.

 

I drive with the Fridge on Gas (I do avoid Petrol Stations for the obvious hazard of Fumes) because the 12v element is so poor.

 

Most Fridges are at their most efficient on Gas compared to 12v and run Cooler. On some the 12v isn't even controlled by the thermostat because the Fridge quite often can't get cold enough to trigger it successfully.

 

40+ years ago when these 12v systems became the norm, Fuel cost so much less, the additional load on the Alternator was a pretty insignificant cost, but that is not the same today.

 

 

So to have what is a flawed solution and then spend £240 on getting it to work again, doesn't make sense to me. But if you want me to fix it, I will happily do so.

 

 

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aandncaravan - 2017-11-17 9:20 AM

 

The huge number of Cars involved in accidents over the last 50 years is staggering, yet I know of only one fire as a result of escaping petrol. Yet petrol pipes are all around the engine bay with red hot exhaust manifold and hot engine. Before anyone tries to include Zafiras, like many of that type, were electrical fires.

 

'My only answer to that is you must have a few slates missing' That you are actively encouraging others to drive with a live gas flame whilst the possibility of an accident is an everyday occurrence.

 

I was witness last year on the A30 to a M/H in a roadside garage almost destroyed by fire plus half the garage with it and all because they had followed 'presumably' your reasoning.

 

Escaping petrol is not the problem. ITS THE VOLATILE VAPOUR !

 

I suggest you reply by changing your wording lest you become accused of condoning a fatality !

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aandncaravan - 2017-11-17 9:20 AM

 

We therefore suggested that one option is to bin the ability to run the Fridge on 12v and use Gas while on the move.

 

Much is made of the alleged 'Hazard' of running a Fridge on the move but LPG car drivers don't turn off the Gas before they drive off and neither do I turn off my highly inflammable Petrol supply in my car before I drive.

 

 

Sorry Allan..but what a daft "suggestion"...

 

I don't think lpg cars have large crude plastic vents on their sides, with an exposed gas jet flickering away just a few inches inboard,..?

..and similarly, petrol cars I've owned have never had an exposed fuel jet located on the side, which squirted out fuel on the move, and was protect by nothing more than said plastic grill...?

 

(Why didn't you suggest that they could just strap a "whisper quiet" Honda genny in the footwell? (lol) )

 

Should we await your next tutorial on how to re-fill your exchange gas cylinders, using little more that an old bike inner tube and a fairy liquid bottle?... (lol)

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rupert123 - 2017-11-17 10:48 AM

 

I see no problem with Alans suggestion provided your van has the safety precautions in place. Most vans now can be run with the gas heating on while on the move so what is wrong with the fridge running?

 

A Truma is designed to work whilst the vehicle is in motion, a 3 way fridge isn't.

As for vehicle fires, go back a few years and there where major problems with high pressure fuel being sprayed out in accidents, nowadays manufacturers fit inertia shut off valves.

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To the best of my knowledge there are no UK regulations forbidding a fridge being operated on gas in a moving vehicle while that vehicle is being driven in the UK.

 

However, other countries (eg. France) do have national laws forbidding gas-fuelled appliances being operated in a moving vehicle, the only exception being when the appliance is a suitably-certified heater and a suitably-certified ‘safety’ system is fitted.

 

‘Smart’ 3-way fridges, that can select 12V, 230V or gas operation as appropriate, have a delay feature designed to prevent the fridge from switching to gas-operation when (for example) the vehicle has stopped temporarily to refuel. A ‘manual’ 3-way fridge operating on gas will not have that feature and (as pagey mentioned) unless the driver switches the fridge off before stopping at a service-station, there will be a very real potential for a major accident.

 

There’s also the ‘aerodynamic’ question - whether the fridge will actually operate properly on gas when air is passing at 60mph over the fridge’s exterior ventilation grilles.

 

Obviously running a fridge on gas is an option if the appliance won’t operate on 12V or is inefficient on 12V (and I’ve read of caravanners with old-model 3-way fridges running them on gas AND 12V while driving in very hot weather) but the negatives need to be considered before doing so.

 

 

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I think my main concern with Allan's proposal is the "petrol station scenario".

 

I'm not doubting that Allan would turn off the gas to the fridge prior to entering a petrol station.

 

But, there are those amongst us (obviously not those on this forum) who would either forgot to turn off the gas or be blissfully unaware of the dangers.

 

Dometic do attempt to address this problem when running the fridge on 12v with AES selected. A delay of at least 15 minutes elapses before the fridge will fire up on gas. Even this is not totally foolproof if there is a long queue at the petrol station.

 

Thankfully, I have a CBE system where the high electrical currents to the fridge are connected to the PCB with screw-down studs and NOT connectors.

 

Consequently, I will continue to travel with the gas turned off and the fridge running on 12v :-D

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Will, You don't know that was a gas related issue that cause that fire, that is pure speculation

The Motorhome is more likely to have caught fire with an electrical issue, see the photos of stuff we remove every month. Two photos of two different units from two vehicles.

 

As for a naked flame, my Cat reaches temperatures higher than you can wave a candle at. The exhaust where it exits the Cylinder Head (literally 14" from the petrol pipe) will be even hotter.

 

 

Sorry but please can you show me evidence, not hearsay, of at least 200 vehicle fires, from the hundreds of thousands of accidents in the last 50years that occurred from Petrol/vapour release. Even that number wouldn't be high enough to rate a percentage value in real terms.

 

Clearly there have been some, as I stated I witnessed one, but that makes the risk as high as winning the Lottery.

 

There clearly is the most miniscule of risk, but one of being killed in a collision is massively higher.

 

Having your Motorhome catch fire from an Electrical problem is probably more likely.

There is so much electrical equipment in a Motorhome, batteries, etc that is more likely to start a fire in an accident even if Gas wasn't fitted. Anyone with a Lithium battery should be more worried about that than a Fridge Pilot light!!!

 

If the doom mongers can demonstrate, using fact not fiction, that there have been thousands of car fires following the release of flammable liquid/gas, then in the light of that evidence, rather than my own experience, I will review what I think.

 

The risk is there but lets get it in proportion. 20 in fifty years, or whatever the figures are, is not a lot.

 

 

 

 

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I think the idea of running a fridge on gas while moving would be good if fridges were designed to do so like Truma heaters. Otherwise, safety issues would arise.

 

Gone are the days of my childhood (1950s) when my father used to drive the family in a work van with us kids in the back in armchairs from the house and the only heating being a paraffin stove!!

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Derek Uzzell - 2017-11-17 11:12 AM

 

To the best of my knowledge there are no UK regulations forbidding a fridge being operated on gas in a moving vehicle while that vehicle is being driven in the UK.

 

 

...for most designs of motorhome/caravan fridges used in the UK (which expose an external naked flame whilst in use), it is in contravention of the "Construction and Use" legislation......

 

Edit to add....

 

..actually, having re-read the somewhat oddly punctuated details, I might retract that ;-)

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crocs - 2017-11-17 11:31 AM

 

I think the idea of running a fridge on gas while moving would be good if fridges were designed to do so like Truma heaters. Otherwise, safety issues would arise.

 

Gone are the days of my childhood (1950s) when my father used to drive the family in a work van with us kids in the back in armchairs from the house and the only heating being a paraffin stove!!

Now there's an idea, a paraffin fridge :-D
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"A Truma heater is designed to work whilst the vehicle is in motion, a 3 way fridge isn't."

 

 

Colin, a Truma Heater designed for use on the move still has an 'open' path for oxygen, fuel vapour etc. to enter the unit.

It has to have to burn the gas successfully.

It also has an exit pipe for the hot exhaust fumes.

 

That unit is 'Designed' to enter a Petrol Station.

 

To me, I can't see any real difference or risk?

 

This is a unit designed for and approved for use while moving and driving into Fuel Stations.

 

Obviously there is a tiny risk something will go wrong in an accident and the covers protecting the flames get ripped off at the same time the gas pipe ruptured, while simultaneously being struck by lightning, at exactly the same time as a overhead power line drops onto the vehicle, etc.

 

But it is a risk so small, far less than many more hazards we face every day.

 

 

Lets also get it right about petrol stations, the risk is not the Motorhome will catch fire, it probably won't, but IF there has been a MAJOR spill of Petrol (not Diesel) AND the wind has not blown away the fumes (which is designed to happen, hence the open nature of forecourts) AND there happens to be a BIG concentration of fumes right by the Naked Light then the fumes across the forecourt might ignite.

 

I would suggest that a major spill would cause the staff to shutdown the filling station until a clear up operation is complete?

 

So even here the 'perceived' risk is not the MEGA DANGER that some may think? Don't suggest you test that, but be realistic about what the risks really are.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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crocs - 2017-11-17 11:31 AM

 

I think the idea of running a fridge on gas while moving would be good if fridges were designed to do so like Truma heaters. Otherwise, safety issues would arise.

 

 

 

Fridges are designed to operate in high air speeds, like on the move. They are designed with flame shielding to work in high wind speeds.

 

I have been in 60+ mph winds in a Caravan, very scary, and neither the SB1800 heater or the fridge Gas flames went out. That is what they are designed to cope with.

 

They are not certified to be used on the move, but that doesn't mean they are not safe.

 

 

 

Pepe63, I find your reply quite offensive. Make a sound counter argument, but no need to be nasty.

 

 

 

 

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Allan

 

If you are going to suggest the fridge-on-gas-while-travelling option, I believe you should a) highlight that it will (almost certainly) conflict with the fridge manufacturer’s operating instructions, b) emphasise the need for care regarding refuelling the vehicle and c) warn that the practice is illegal in some EU countries.

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aandncaravan - 2017-11-17 11:21 AM

 

Will, You don't know that was a gas related issue that cause that fire, that is pure speculation

The Motorhome is more likely to have caught fire with an electrical issue, see the photos of stuff we remove every month. Two photos of two different units from two vehicles.

 

 

And yet another daft comment. 'A M/H standing at a petrol station half destroyed along with the garage roof with the centre of the fire around the petrol filler point.

 

You may be a wizard at electrics but a -10 on fuel vapour ignition.

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Derek, thank you points noted.

 

At no point have we suggested that people do this.

I wrote the customers had a problem with 12v Fridge operation that they did not want to pay to fix.

"We therefore suggested that one option is to bin the ability to run the Fridge on 12v and use Gas while on the move".

 

We did not suggest they take that option, that is down to them and the readers of the post.

 

We then went through the costs, which are the opposite of what most think and the perceived 'safety' risks which statistics show are exceptionally, exceptionally low.

 

I wrote,

"I drive with the Fridge on Gas (I do avoid Petrol Stations for the obvious hazard of Fumes) .......".

 

 

Derek, I appreciate the advice, as always, but anyone who wants to consider the option should make their own assessment.

 

 

Hopefully they will now be able to make a more informed assessment and be aware that Gas on the move is probably cheaper than running on 12v, especially if the cost of maintenance repairs are considered?

 

And while there are risks they are about as great as winning the Lottery.

 

Also that Electrical fires are a far higher real risk than they probably believed and a growing hazard?

 

 

You know me, love to challenge what I think are out of date perceptions.

 

 

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I have just had a telephone conversation with my local fire & safety officer, the last motorhome advice an officer gave me was in 2010. This is my understanding of what the current officer said relating to motorhomes and gas:

 

Modern Fire Brigades are well aware of the risks in dealing with fires involving gas cylinders and vehicles. They adopt a suitable approach depending on individual circumstances. They assume that caravans and motorhomes will have Calor Gas style gas cylinders unless they are told to the contrary - there should be a warning sticker at least to indicate the presence of gas cylinders.

 

As a general guide, firemen will seek to cool down the cylinders; Calor gas cylinders do not take long to cool whereas Oxygen Acetylene gas cylinders can take 24 hours and need a 200m exclusion zone. If the cylinders are not cooled, then Calor Gas cylinders will blow the valve - I think this is part of the safety design - and a flame jet may result. This will be tackled the same way as a flame which might occur when the gas is on. Fire Brigades are able to deal with incidents whether the gas is on or off and whether dealing with a jet of flame or overheating cylinders. He was aware of the Truma Safety system which he felt was evidence the industry was taken the risks seriously. He has dealt with the Caravan & Motorhome Club and Motor Caravanners Club and was impressed with their commitment to fire safety.

 

Naked flames are a serious risk where there is combustable gases. It's an absolute no-no in places like garage forecourts, tunnels, ferries. As an aside, I recall a post on a forum some time ago where the motorhomer on a forecourt, filling the van with diesel, suffered burns when his fridge switched on and flash ignited fuel vapour, burning his arm.

 

Another no-no is using adapters, which have not been approved, to fill gas cylinders.

 

I opined the FPO used the term ‘Calor’ as a generic referral to cylinders of the same or higher standards. We didn't discuss issues that may arise outside England & Wales.

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Will, How do you know it was the Fridge flame? Maybe he was stupid enough to be smoking a ciggy while filling up?

Maybe he had rubbish batteries that were gassing and venting out under the van? You only need a 4% mix of Hydrogen and Oxygen to create an explosion. Maybe when he stopped the gas came into contact with the hot exhaust, etc. etc.

Sorry but could have been many things and that is part of the issue because one point is stated 'As fact'. Just like the post about a man burning his arm when the Fridge switched to Gas? Why did it only burn his Arm? Had there been any Fuel vapour on the Forecourt it would most likely have been across a big area.

 

 

 

Stuart, neither would I, and make that point that I avoid Petrol Stations for that reason.

 

But we were talking about risk, and there has to be some pretty disastrous happenings at the Filling station for that risk to be high, even if you are stupid enough to drive into one with the Fridge lit.

 

Exactly as the idiot I saw light a Cigarette as he got out of his Car a while ago!!

He got some looks, but none of us went up in flames.

 

 

All of the replies were about risk level, All suggesting that the likely hood of any of these situations occurring is high, when it isn't.

Less chance than being struck by lightening.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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aandncaravan - 2017-11-17 12:26 PM

 

Pepe63, I find your reply quite offensive. Make a sound counter argument, but no need to be nasty.

 

..and I find someone "suggesting" on a public forum that it's okay for folk to drive around in vehicle with it's fridge lit on gas, both ridiculous and dangerous ( especially coming as it does from someone who supposedly has a large degree of practical and technical nous...?)

 

"Sound counter argument"?...errr?..It's a daft idea to drive a vehicle with a naked gas flame, sitting just behind crude plastic grill? (as I, and others, have posted).

 

(as for "nasty"? behave yourself, I was having joke..Will even reckoned you had a slate loose. (lol) )

edit-sorry, "slates missing" (lol) )

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I have a 5 year old Adria motorhome who used to turn on the gas when we arrived at our destination. Therefore, when in transit the fridge would automatically switch to the 12 volt source.

 

However, earlier this year I noticed that the 12 volt source failed to be activated during transit and reluctantly had to use gas.

 

Eventually I got around to tracing the problem and found the fuse blown and wiring burnt out. Not as bad as Allan’s picture fortunately.

 

I repaired the wiring and replaced the fuse and all is back to ‘normal’ except I will be removing the fuse and using gas from now on as per Allan’s advice.

 

I have no idea what caused the minor damage (compared to Allan’s picture) but if it’s happened once it can happen again and this time I might not be as lucky as just a blown fuze.

 

Allan, I am very grateful to you.

 

Barry

 

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All interesting stuff Alan, and something I thought about when the 12v system failed on my caravan fridge. I didn't try it because I have difficulty getting the fridge ti light on gas if it isn't 100% level, so how would it work when the caravan is bouncing about on the road?

Regarding the scaremongering in some posts reminds me of the mobile mechanic who refused to work on a neighbour's broken-down car without coning off the road and calling the fire service because the car was LPG powered!

A bit like those who won't use gas heating overnight. Why? If its safe during the day, why is it unsafe at night?

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Its totally unfair to comment that the non users of lighted gas when travelling are scared etc.

 

The fact's are that I have no intention of putting my family or other road users at risk by allowing even the slightest chance of injury to occur. I've worked with industrial gasses for 76 years and know the possibilities.

 

Risk assessment is the modern term and while there is always a risk I will abide by my own survival laws.

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