Satnav maps for life?

[Absolutebeginner]

How long do you think that "life" means when you pay over £300 for a motorhome satnav which includes maps for life?

[Derek Uzzell]

This “Which?” artcle may answer your question

 

https://www.which.co.uk/news/2018/05/majority-of-consumers-confused-over-lifetime-sat-nav-support/

 

Sat navs are really no different to desktop computers, tablets or phones - ‘software’ updates may be provided free of charge for a long period, but there will come a time when the device itself is no longer capable of handling updates. For example, my 2010 Apple iMac does not have the latest Operating System nor receive Apple security/software updates because its hardware is incapable of running Apple’s more recent software.

 

Given the complexity of a current (say) TomTom or Garmin sat-nav and the size of the map files, there’s no possibility of early devices being updatable nowadays even if they may have been originally marketed with free lifetime mapping.

[BruceM]

I think you’ll have to check the T&Cs that came with the device you purchased.

 

For instance my used van came with a sat nav purchased by the previous owner three years earlier. It too had maps updates ‘for life’. When I went to update the maps it turns out that maps updates ‘for life’ only applied to the original purchaser. I was offered updates for an additional £130 so I dumped it in preference to a £30 EBay sat nav and it’s done me proud ever since. The additional potential issue is that as the maps increases in detail your host device may eventually be below spec to operate with them, a lack of sufficient RAM being a potential issue. So even if you can get the maps you may eventually find that you’re unable to use them.

[teccer1234]

Absolutebeginner - 2020-12-30 2:30 PM

 

How long do you think that "life" means when you pay over £300 for a motorhome satnav which includes maps for life?

when I bought my tom tom 6 years ago with free lifetime updates I contacted tom tom and asked if it was for life, she said it would only be for about 10 years as I don't expect you'll be using the same sat nav in 10 years time as I expect you'll be getting a better one.

 

I think she would be correct

[mtravel]

I have no idea but I bought a Garmin Nuvi LMT in 2013 and for now I have no signs of possible end of life.

Please note that software updates are minimal for these items and should not impact maps.

[Derek Uzzell]

Garmi’s statement on “Lifetime Maps” is as follows:

 

Lifetime Maps

 

If you purchase a nüMaps Lifetime subscription (sold separately or bundled together with certain GPS models), you will receive map updates when and as such updates are made available on the Garmin website during the useful life of 1 compatible Garmin product or as long as Garmin receives map data from a third party supplier, whichever is shorter. A product’s “useful life” means the period during which the product (a) has sufficient memory capacity and other required technical capabilities to utilize current map data and (b) is capable of operating as intended without major repairs. A product will be deemed to be out of service and its useful life to be ended if no updates have been downloaded for such product for a period of 24 months or more. Unless otherwise stated, the updates you receive under the subscription will be updates to the same geographic area included with your Garmin product when originally purchased. Third party content providers may change. In some instances, your Garmin product might not have sufficient memory remaining for you to load an update to the map data, in which case you will need to either (a) select reduced map data coverage for your updates, or (b) purchase separately a microSD™/SD™ card (if and as applicable to your Garmin product) and load all or a portion of the map data coverage for your updates to the card and insert the card into the microSD/SD card slot contained in your Garmin product. If neither of the measures in (a) or (b) can be used to address your product’s lack of sufficient remaining memory, then Garmin may conclude that the “useful life” of your product has expired. Garmin may terminate your nüMaps Lifetime subscription at any time if you violate any of the terms of this agreement or your subscription. Your nüMaps Lifetime subscription may not be transferred to another Garmin product.

[colin]

Garmin where the first manufacturer I heard of where the 'lifetime maps' ran out of life, IIRC a member on here had one for only 1 or 2 years and could no longer update it due to the OS changing.

 

[malc d]

I can't think of any electronic product that will last ' for life ' ( i.e. forever ).

 

'For Life' is simply a phrase dreamt up by some marketing organisation.

 

What they really mean is " this product will last until we want everyone to replace it with a newer model "

 

;-)

[Les W]

I've had a Garmin Zumo 660 motorcycle unit since early 2015, still getting the latest map updates, and the unit works perfectly.

 

I also use 'Mapsource' to plot my routes to download to the unit, been using that since about 2005, which is also up to date with the latest Garmin mapping, which is supplied by the 'HERE WeGo' mapping organisation.

[Brian Kirby]

Could you clarify this please Les? I'm intrigued. The underlying mapping used by Garmin is by Navteq and, as you have a Garmin sat nav, I would expect the mapping being used by MapSource on your PC to also be Navteq, downloaded and installed while updating the maps on the Garmin device.

[teccer1234]

malc d - 2020-12-30 4:48 PM

 

I can't think of any electronic product that will last ' for life ' ( i.e. forever ).

 

'For Life' is simply a phrase dreamt up by some marketing organisation.

 

What they really mean is " this product will last until we want everyone to replace it with a newer model "

 

;-)

virtually what tom tom told me

[malc d]

teccer1234 - 2020-12-30 6:09 PM

 

malc d - 2020-12-30 4:48 PM

 

I can't think of any electronic product that will last ' for life ' ( i.e. forever ).

 

'For Life' is simply a phrase dreamt up by some marketing organisation.

 

What they really mean is " this product will last until we want everyone to replace it with a newer model "

 

;-)

virtually what tom tom told me

Has anyone been told yet how long the battery lasts in an electric car ?

 

Or how much a replacement will be ?

 

;-)

[Les W]

Brian Kirby - 2020-12-30 5:23 PM

 

Could you clarify this please Les? I'm intrigued. The underlying mapping used by Garmin is by Navteq and, as you have a Garmin sat nav, I would expect the mapping being used by MapSource on your PC to also be Navteq, downloaded and installed while updating the maps on the Garmin device.

This is the info on my SatNav Brian, there is no mention of Navteq.

[EJB]

FWIW.

My experience with Tom Tom is about 5/6 years.

This sometimes causes problems when old stock is discounted and sold off at the 2 to 4 year point.

[mtravel]

Not sure but I think Navtek and Here are the same thing since a while.

https://www.here.com/navteq

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navteq

 

p.s. Garmin Map Source had been replaced by Base Camp.

[Derek Uzzell]

There’s a fair amount of on-line stuff about BaseCamp and Mapsource

 

https://tinyurl.com/yc9s7oc8

 

 

[Les W]

mtravel - 2020-12-31 9:28 AM

p.s. Garmin Map Source had been replaced by Base Camp.

It hasn't been replaced it's an alternative created largely for use on Apple Computers which had trouble using Mapsource.

[Brian Kirby]

Les W - 2020-12-30 10:44 PM

Brian Kirby - 2020-12-30 5:23 PM

Could you clarify this please Les? I'm intrigued. The underlying mapping used by Garmin is by Navteq and, as you have a Garmin sat nav, I would expect the mapping being used by MapSource on your PC to also be Navteq, downloaded and installed while updating the maps on the Garmin device.

This is the info on my SatNav Brian, there is no mention of Navteq.

Thank you Les. Interesting! I've just checked mine and reference to Navteq has disappeared. I think Massimo (mtravel) has provided the answer to that - it's all now owned by VW-Audi and BMW! I've never used MapSource for routing (which I do with Autoroute), but have found it invaluable (in conjunction with Google Earth) for creating, managing, and checking the accuracy of, POIs. Once I've got a route off Autoruute, I just let the Garmin do the point to point routing, check that against the Autoroute version, and then correct what I don't like. Thanks also to Massimo.

[mtravel]

As far as I know, Garmin has discontinued Map Source and no updates have been released since a while.

 

Base Camp continues to be updated.

Although the latest versions no longer include the direct interface with Google Earth, probably for a matter of rights.

 

What I don't like of Base Camp is that, having a single database, it is impossible to save the single current project (Save as) which is foreseen in Map Source.

[Les W]

mtravel - 2020-12-31 12:55 PM

 

As far as I know, Garmin has discontinued Map Source and no updates have been released since a while.

 

Base Camp continues to be updated.

Although the latest versions no longer include the direct interface with Google Earth, probably for a matter of rights.

 

What I don't like of Base Camp is that, having a single database, it is impossible to save the single current project (Save as) which is foreseen in Map Source.

Mapsource is still available to download, however as you say there are no more updates from Garmin... I would say it doesn't need anymore updates as it's just about spot on (for me).

 

I use Mapsource all the time prefering it to the unneccessarily complex Basecamp, all the latest Garmin maps can be downloaded and used with Mapsource too.

 

You can also use Mapsource with the latest 'Nuvi' units such as Garmin Camper (I do) but you have to change the settings in the Nuvi to 'Mass Storage' mode for Mapsource to recognise it.

[Absolutebeginner]

Thanks for all your contributions. Lots of useful responses. I guess that the reason I raised it was that the offer by suppliers isn't really maps for life and I was a bit miffed. The reality is just as you have all discussed. I should have known better really.

 

My first satnav was by Philips and was built into my new Renault. Maps by Navtech. Updates to maps was by paying £180 for a DVD. So no updates purchased then. The disk drive would fail sometimes and the Renault dealer would say that it was not a Renault problem and struggled to sort it under warranty. The lesson was "don't buy a car with a built in satnav (difficult these days admittedly).

 

My next satnav was a small £100 Garmin that was terrific. No map updates. The usb socket broke off the pcb and that ended its life, but at £100 and about 5 years use it owed me nothing.

 

My current satnav cost over £300 (perhaps £350), bought through a camping club with vehicle size input and maps for life for UK and Europe maps. Within a year I had to purchase a larger capacity memory card to be able to update maps. I had an e-mail about a month ago that said that maps for life was to end today. Of course I went through the rather intricate update before the deadline. I would have been happy with just updates for the UK only to continue "for life". I don't need Europe maps. And the ability of truck satnavs to steer you away from narrow or weight restricted roads is not comprehensive. They only cover the roads that have have council signposts, which leaves quite a few unrecognised. At £300+ I'm not keen to throw it away just yet. It still works after all. If it had cost £100 I might have just bought another one.

 

Microsoft say that they don't support their operating systems after 10 years, So the concept of "life" associated with tech is actually quite short. It is cheaper to buy a new laptop with the latest operating system than to buy just the operating system and try loading it on your underpowered old laptop. Not very eco friendly really though. Most people don't use all their computer capabilities and there are other operating system and security software providers that can keep your tech equipment doing the limited tasks that are what you normally want.

 

The lesson then is not to be drawn into buying tech (satnavs) with any more capabiity than you need. My next satnav will probably cost £100 and I will continue to look out the windscreen and observe road signs and use OS maps and common sense.

[mtravel]

Brian Kirby - 2020-12-31 1:47 PM

 

... routing (which I do with Autoroute), but have found it invaluable (in conjunction with Google Earth) for creating, managing, and checking the accuracy of, POIs. Once I've got a route off Autoruute, I just let the Garmin do the point to point routing, check that against the Autoroute version, and then correct what I don't like. .

You're welcome.

Autoroute, etc. That's exactly what I do.

 

I use a lot of the "Rename" function of the single stops to customize them with contents decided by me and the "Edit > Copy Directions" function that I paste into an excel file.

At that point it can also be processed in a sophisticated way and I build my roadmap table with the distances between stops, per day and also the estimated travel times, etc.

As of travel times, after some trials of "Other options> driving speed" adjustments I got about 95% accuracy.

[mtravel]

In my opinion the issue of lifetime updates is not essential.

The first (2006) was a Tomtom, never updated but it took me everywhere until 2013 (when it died) without problems.

Maybe some new road was not included but it was a minor problem.

 

I have two Garmins, one with Western Europe (Lifetime) maps and one with Full Europe map without updates.

The latter purchased in 2014.

Well, with it I was in the Baltic Republics, around Italy, Crete and summer 2020 in a little bit of Poland.

Never had a problem.

 

Camper version:

It does not depend on the satnav but on the maps.

If these are not precise, for example they do not have the height of some underpass, that the satnav is car, camper or truck does not change. He will send you there.

 

Updates:

Tomtom: It was simple then I think they changed something and I know that someone complains.

Garmin: The Express program is effective, very simple and reliable.

 

POI management:

Tomtom: In the past it was very simple, just put the .ov2 and .bmp files in the directory where the map is and it was done.

Now I know it's more complicated and doesn't accept custom icons anymore.

Garmin: The POI Loader program is effective, very simple and reliable.

 

p.s. On my last van I have a satnav on Pioneer car stereo that can be updated via Naviextras. I better shut up ... #@##@!!

[Brian Kirby]

I'm sure you'll have discovered this, but the workaround I use between MapSource and GE, is to take MapSource to the location I want to see, and then click the "View" and "Go to Position" pull down, and then copy the coordinates from the pop-up which opens, and paste those into the "Search" bar in GE. GE then inserts a "pushpin" at that location and zooms in to it. A little trial and error then results in a pretty much pin-point accurate POI.

 

I imagine the same would be true for BaseCamp, but having experimented with BaseCamp for a bit I gave up because I couldn't work out how to create and load directories of POIs, which I have found very easy to do in MapSource. I think I now have in the order of 60K POIs on the device.

 

I originally got a Nuvi 760 in 2008, which was fine but a bit "clunky" in its navigation, so in 2012 I changed that for a Nuvi 3495 LM, and finally got a Drive 51 LMT-S in 2019. All with full Europe mapping, all lifetime updates, all with SD/Micro SD card slots.

 

The Drive 51 has a slightly larger screen, better navigation graphics, and is quicker to find satellites and to re-route than the Nuvis, but it is badly let down by a pathetic battery that can only be used stand-alone for about 30 minutes.

 

OTOH the Nuvis have excellent battery life, to the extent they can be used stand-alone for navigating unfamiliar towns on foot when needed. It seems someone decided there is little need for extended sat nav battery life as they will only be used in a vehicle. The Nuvis now all seem to have been withdrawn, leaving only Zumos as an alternative. But these seem primarily aimed at bikers, so I'm distrustful of the routing logic for use with a van.

 

For reasons previously stated above I share the reservations about the "truck" variants. There seems little point in allowing entry of vehicle size if the mapping doesn't include road widths, only legal restrictions on vehicle size/weight. Might be a good choice for users of very large MHs, but for the added cost seem to me to add little extra value. There are an awful lot of rural roads that are narrow but with no legal width restriction - and agricultural vehicles just get bigger and bigger! :-) So far, so good? :-D It seems they patch over this by prioritising "main roads" over secondaries except for the final approach to destinations, which means they reject perfectly good secondary roads based on the classification alone, and in so doing take significantly longer routes. Besides, I like secondary roads, they are usually far pleasanter to drive, and often turn out to have unexpected gems of places along them.

 

We've done about 55K miles around Europe since getting the 760, and although I've occasionally disregarded roads I didn't like the look of, we haven't encountered any real show-stoppers, although the vans have been max 6,750 long and max 2,100 wide.

[Les W]

Brian Kirby - 2020-12-31 4:53 PM

I'm sure you'll have discovered this, but the workaround I use between MapSource and GE, is to take MapSource to the location I want to see, and then click the "View" and "Go to Position" pull down, and then copy the coordinates from the pop-up which opens, and paste those into the "Search" bar in GE. GE then inserts a "pushpin" at that location and zooms in to it. A little trial and error then results in a pretty much pin-point accurate POI.

Brian, I think the same results can be obtained by right clicking on any location in Mapsource and selecting 'View Satellite Imagery on maps.google.com'.

 

That's what I do to get an exact location/view of any POI.