Second leisure battery for Autocruise Rythm

[MickyDee]

Hi just wondering if anyone has fitted a second leisure battery to a Autocruise Rythm and if so where and how.

The existing leisure battery fitted is behind the drivers seat and there is not much room for another one there

Thanks in advance

[Mike88]

The second battery will fit under the driver's seat on its side. Obviously you will have to purchase a battery that can be fitted that way and remove/then refit the front seat.

[Tracker]

Removing and refitting the driver's seat is not technically complicated but it is fiddly and time consuming and the seat once undone is heavy and awkward and can be a handful to move single handed.

[Mike88]

Tracker - 2017-08-08 2:02 PM

 

Removing and refitting the driver's seat is not technically complicated but it is fiddly and time consuming and the seat once undone is heavy and awkward and can be a handful to move single handed.

 

True. Although I didn't fit my second battery I believe you also have to disconnect a wire in order to prevent the airbag going off. For the record the OP's 2010 Autocruise Rhythm is identical to the Swift Mondial I owned.

[aandncaravan]

Don't forget that if you add a different technology battery that will mount on it's side, like a Gel, the existing Habitation battery must be swapped as well to match the new one.

 

Both batteries should be the same age, size, technology, etc. Ideally also the same manufacturer.

 

Also check that the charger supports the technology you intend to fit as many are not optimised for the likes of Gel, etc.

Obviously the charger needs to be able to support the larger battery bank. Chargers like the Sargent EC155 often only have a very lower current (and only 13.5v) charger which already struggles to fully charge a single battery.

An EC155 style 10amp, fixed 13.5v charger is not going to cope with a big battery bank.

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

This earlier forum-thread discussed the AGM leisure-battery that was fitted at one stage as standard to Swift Mondial models, with the battery installed on its side beneath a cab seat.

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Mondial-leisure-AGM-battery-needed/47144/

 

I can understand why it could make good logical sense to replace an original on-its-side AGM battery on a like-for-like basis as the under-seat battery retention framework will already be in place. But if the existing leisure-battery is behind the driver’s seat and there’s room under one of the cab seats, why would one lie a 2nd battery on its side, as some motorhome converters (eg. Chausson) seem to manage to fit a conventional wet-acid battery ‘upright’ beneath an X250 cab seat?

[paul2]

Hi

I fitted two wet batteries to my swift modial the second one under seat not hard. If I remember rightly the rubber mat had a indentiaton that fitted the battery perfect and I just added breather pipes that vented out though gommet already in floor.

Paul

[Derek Uzzell]

MickyDee - 2017-08-08 12:59 PM

 

Hi just wondering if anyone has fitted a second leisure battery to a Autocruise Rythm and if so where and how.

The existing leisure battery fitted is behind the drivers seat and there is not much room for another one there

Thanks in advance

 

I dread to ask this, but are you sure your Rhythm does not already have two leisure-batteries?

 

Motorhome forum comments suggest that the leisure-battery factory-fitted to Swift Mondials was an AGM (or gel) type installed on its side beneath the right-hand (driver’s side) cab seat. Mike88 has said that a 2010 Autocruise Rhythm should be identical to his 2010 Mondial, and the following MHFacts thread relating to a 2008 Rhythm refers to there being “an 85AH gel battery fitted on its side under the driver’s seat”.

 

http://forums.motorhomefacts.com/182-electrical/95949-habitation-battery-autocruise-rhythm-campervan.html

 

I believe it is not practicable to rotate a Rhythm’s driver’s seat more than 90-degrees anti-clockwise, meaning that - if a 2nd leisure-battery were required - putting it behind the driver’s seat would not cause inconvenience and would permit easy connection to the on-its-side battery. So, as your Rhythm has a leisure-battery behind the driver’s seat, what (if anything) is under the driver’s seat?

 

Conversely, based on your earlier postings it looks like you have owned your Rhythm from new, so maybe ‘your’ Rhythm has always had a single leisure-battery factory-fitted behind the driver’s seat?

 

As Allan (aandncaravan) has advised, you’ll need to match battery types and not connect a new battery to one several years old. Fitting a pair of new identical batteries would make good sense (perhaps Varta LFD90 batteries, but ONLY if they are to be mounted UPRIGHT) with one battery behind the driver’s seat and the other beneath it as paul2 did.

 

As adding a 2nd leisure-battery would probably involve you discarding the present one (assuming it’s not virtually new) if there’s sufficient room behind the driver’s seat you might consider fitting a single larger capacity battery there (eg. a Varta LFD140 140Ah) rather than have two batteries in two different locations. Also, it might well be cheaper to buy one big battery instead of two smaller ones.

 

 

[Mike88]

Derek Uzzell - 2017-08-09 8:28 AM

 

 

Motorhome forum comments suggest that the leisure-battery factory-fitted to Swift Mondials was an AGM (or gel) type installed on its side beneath the right-hand (driver’s side) cab seat. Mike88 has said that a 2010 Autocruise Rhythm should be identical to his 2010 Mondial, and the following MHFacts thread relating to a 2008 Rhythm refers to there being “an 85AH gel battery fitted on its side under the driver’s seat”.

 

 

I believe that 2010 Autocruise Rhythms did not have a factory fitted battery under the seat. I had to ask my dealer to fit a second battery prior to collection and they did so by fitting it under the seat on its side. A second battery was not a factory option.

 

I have a feeling (and I could be wrong) that if the battery is fitted upright there might be issues with the seat swivel and possibly it might have to be removed. Otherwise the seat will be too high even at its lowest setting. That wouldn't be too much of a problem because the seat will only rotate 90 degrees at best and is not that useful. That information would need to be checked as my suspicions are speculative.

 

What I find very strange is that the dealer mixed battery types as they must have known there would be incompatibility issues and also that the on board Sargent charger might not be up to the job. I also had a 90 watt solar panel fitted at the same time so I wonder if this made a difference to the charger at least but does not explain the incompatibility of the batteries.

[aandncaravan]

Dereks advice to maybe fit a single 140Ah battery is good advice. However please be ultra careful when taking delivery that the battery is fully charged and 'fresh'.

The Varta LFD90 is sold in huge numbers so turnover at the retailers is usually high, resulting in the batteries being of recent manufacture.

The Varta 140Ah size sells in much smaller numbers so a higher risk that it may be many months old and already deteriorating?

 

Suggest you have a multimeter handy to check the voltage and only accept it if it's around 12.7 or above.

 

For optimum life and capacity, we can't emphasise enough the importance of the battery being new. If a 'new' 140Ah battery is actually old by the time you receive it, the real capacity could be as low as 100Ah and that may never be recovered. It will stay as a 100Ah battery whose capacity reduces still further as you use it.

 

Also remember that a new battery won't reach it's peak capacity for a few charge discharge cycles, so you should charge it for at least 24 hours as soon as you can.

 

 

Obviously the above advice applies to any battery that may have been 'in stock' at a retailers for some months/years, not just bigger batteries.

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Mike88 - 2017-08-09 9:00 AM

 

...I have a feeling (and I could be wrong) that if the battery is fitted upright there might be issues with the seat swivel and possibly it might have to be removed...

 

Depends which battery were chosen.

 

Chausson manage to fit a fairly large capacity ‘wet-acid’ leisure-battery (obviously upright) beneath a Ducato cab-seat fitted with a swivel mechanism and paul2 has said that he also did this. As it’s commonplace for motorhome manufacturers to shove electrical equipment and batteries beneath cab seats, it would be peculiar if the addition of a seat-swivel mechanism reduced the height originally available beneath a cab seat at its lowest setting. However, as you rightly warn, it’s something that needs checking.

 

Although mixing battery types is not recommended, as long as the charging regimen won’t be harmful to a particular type it should be OK. I think the normal charging regimen for a wet-acid battery should not harm an AGM battery (though not vice versa) though it won’t be ideal. Allan could confirm if that’s correct.

 

 

[aandncaravan]

Derek, mixing battery technologies is not a good idea because they have different voltages, resulting in the higher voltage battery doing the Lions share of the work. Also when charging is not taking place, the higher voltage battery will pass it's charge to the lower voltage battery, a continual to and fro process which will drastically shorten it's life.

 

While a conventional Wet acid battery has a resting voltage of 12.7v (some old fashioned Deep cycle Antimony batteries only 12.6v), a Gel or AGM battery is usually 13v. See chart below

You can see why it is so important that the battery voltages are balanced to share the load.

 

 

You will often read that an AGM battery won't 'be harmed' by the lower 14.4 charge voltage of a Wet Acid mains Charger or Alternator, yet the battery manufacturers stipulate they should only get 14.8v.

 

See photo of an AGM battery that is so particular about the charge voltage they print it on the casing.

I don't think I have ever seen any text regarding voltages on a 'Wet' acid battery, so this manufacturer is going to a lot more trouble to ensure they get they optimum charge rate.

 

We have said for a long time that an AGM battery that doesn't get the optimum charge rate will take longer to charge and once the battery ages, might not get fully charged. This can then lead to premature battery deterioration.

An £200 AGM battery should have an 8 year life, yet in a Motorhome they rarely make it to 3 years without serious loss of capacity.

 

 

I would say this AGM battery manufacturer in the photo is going to great lengths to ensure it is charged only by an AGM optimised charger and Alternator.

[Tracker]

Under the passenger cab seat of many vans is the jack etc in a large and space consuming black plastic case.

If the case contents are packed away somewhere else there may be space under that seat for a 2nd battery , but you may need to cut away the floor insulation to get enough height for the swivel to clear the battery which is what I did on our Warwick Duo.

Personally I don't like the thought of any battery on it's side and I would rather stick with Varta or Bosch conventional wet lead acid batteries because they are cheaper and, well established technology and, as Alan says, will probably last longer in that application.

I used conventional battery leads bought from Halfords to connect the two under the floor cover between the seats, and of the existing input/output leads I attached the + to one battery and the - to the other so that both batteries had to work together and were charged equally.

I don't know if it made any difference long term but it seemed the right thing to me at the time!

[paul2]

Hi

My 3 month old 2010 used mondial rl had one upright battery fitted behind drivers seat this failed very quickly and dealer would not replace under warranty so I purchased two 100ah batteries that where not as tall but a little bit longer (from Battery Megastar Tewkesbury I collected them and paid less than online) and the one

fitted under seat with out cutting the rubber mat,

Paul

[Derek Uzzell]

paul2

 

Can you say, please, which make/model of batteries you purchased from Battery Megastore?

 

It’s evident from on-line comments that, when a seat-swivel is fitted to a Ducato/Boxer X250 cab seat there may be clearance problems if a battery is to be installed beneath the seat, but some motorhome manufacturers manage to fit one battery there (or even two) and still retain the swivel.

 

Based on a previous O&AL forum discussion, the dimensions of the 85Ah AGM leisure-battery originally fitted beneath the cab seat of earlier Mondials/Rhythms were (approx) 260mm(length) x 168mm(width) x 212mm(height) - so this was a relatively tall but narrow battery. Lying the batttery on its side meant that the battery effectively transformed into a low but wide battery, and there should have been adequate clearance above it even if the seat-swivel mechanism intruded into the under-seat space.

 

It would be interesting to know whether clearance was important when Swift chose the battery-on-its-side arrangement, but it’s tempting to assume there was a good reason to take that approach, not just bloody-mindedness. It would also be worth knowing why Swift ceased fitting the under-seat AGM battery (unavailability?) opting for the more space consuming behind-the-driver’s-seat location instead. But I doubt if Swift would (or could) provide credible answers to those questions...

 

Tayna lists a number of low height wet-acid 'leisure-batteries’

 

https://www.tayna.co.uk/Low-Height-110Ah-Leisure-Batteries-G434.html

 

but all of these have a height of 190mm, as does this gel battery

 

https://www.tayna.co.uk/SL75-Sonnenschein-Gel-Leisure-Battery-P3626.html

 

(which could be installed on its side).

 

Sub-190mm-height batteries are available (examples here)

 

https://www.tayna.co.uk/All-SX-1.html?stype=cat&A-1=R338-368&A-2=R160-190&A-3=R155-185&A-5=&A-6=

 

but these are sold for ‘starting’ applications, not ‘leisure’ use.

[paul2]

Hi Derek

 

I no longer have the mondial, i've looked on battery megastore and can not see the ones I purchased but am sure it was 190 high and I think it was endureline (as in my note book I have x250 starter battery & part number then i have endureline 100ah 354 x 190 with the 190 under lined !) I have just looked under my adria drivers seat and 190 would go in.

 

Paul

[Deneb]

Our Vantage on a Ducato chassis has two Hankook DC27 leisure batteries fitted upright beneath the driver's seat swivel base. They are a fairly tight fit but there is (just) sufficient clearance in height. Each battery is 302mm long, 172mm wide and 220mm total height according to the Hankook literature. The batteries are fitted side by side lengthwise along the vehicle, i.e. short ends of each battery facing fore and aft. This is about the maximum size of batteries that will fit beneath the seat on our van due to the restrictions imposed by the seat frame, so I suspect all X250/290 vans with factory standard seat bases would be similar.

 

We have not had any problems with these batteries, although they are only a year old, but we regularly spend 2 nights wilding and book into a site every third night to hook up, empty and fill tanks etc.

[Derek Uzzell]

My 2015 Ducato X290-based Rapido motorhome is left-hand drive. Beneath the passenger seat (UK off-side) is the black plastic case mentioned above by Tracker containing a jack and tools. Beneath the driver’s seat (UK near-side) is a removable plastic tray (marked “ISRI”) that clips to a pair of horizontal wire supports.

 

According to the vehicle’s specification/options listing provided by a local Fiat Professional agent, the rotating, height-adjustable, twin-arm-rest seats and the seat swivel-plates were factory-fitted by Fiat.

 

I’ve (roughly) measured the height available beneath the driver’s seat and (as Deneb has said) it looks like a 220mm-high battery should just fit under the swivel-plate, while a 190mm-high battery would fit easily beneath the plate. In my driver’s seat’s case the wire supports for the removable tray would constrain battery length and width dimensions, and to fit two fair-size batteries under-seat would probably require removal of the tray-supports.

 

I note from this advert

 

http://www.batterymegastore.co.uk/hankook-dc27.html

 

that the Hankook DC27 battery is well-priced and said to be genuine ‘deep cycle’ type. As its length of 302mm is quite short, rather than have one big (heavy) battery behind the Rhythm’s driver’s seat, or one battery behind the seat and another under it, having a pair of DC27s behind the driver’s seat (if there’s room of course) should simplify installation and parallel-connection and maximise accessibility.

[aandncaravan]

May I point out the Hankook looks identical to the similar Numax battery range? Llike many Asian batteries it is most likely a budget battery produced with multiple labels for different retailers.

 

The Hankooks Lead Calcium 'sealed' technology is not suited to Habitation battery use, especially not Deep Cycling.

 

Calcium is added to a battery to slow down fluid loss, but it can't stop it.

On Starter batteries which hardly ever discharge more than 0.5% (modern engines start almost instantly) the fluid loss can be reduced to a negligible level, so as to be virtually maintenance free. This technology is therefore often the choice of low to mid quality Starter batteries.

 

However a Habitation battery is almost always discharged by 25%, more usually as much as 50% and occasionally as much as 80%, although 80% depth of discharge is not recommended if you want decent battery life.

Such deep discharges will result in recharging that will cause significant fluid loss on this type of battery, yet there is no way to replenish fluid on these (or indeed most of the budget Lead Calcium 'so called Leisure' batteries) which are supposedly 'sealed'.

The term 'Sealed' is misleading as they are not actually sealed at all. It just means they can not be topped up.

 

As a result this 'sealed' Lead Calcium construction Leisure battery will tend to dry out quickly with resultant short life.

 

Having cut open this type of battery many times to see why they failed, we would additionally like to see the manufacturers technical spec that backs up their claims they are capable of 'Deep Cycling'?

 

 

While a quality Lead Calcium battery can make a good Starter battery, we would suggest that you avoid this type of technology for any Leisure batteries UNLESS they have screw tops allowing the replenishment of the lost fluid.

But expect to top them up regularly if you do discharge them to any depth.

 

Those of you that check a Motorhome Starter battery on a regular basis will note how much fluid many of these Lead Calcium batteries take?. That is because Motorhome Starter batteries tend to be allowed to discharge and recharge a bit more than a conventional Car Starter battery.

So you can probably visual just how much fluid this type of battery technology will need if deliberately run down to 50% discharge every day?

 

 

If you are mounting batteries under seats where they are virtually inaccessible, please only use Powerframe technology batteries as these do not Gas at all. The fluid loss is ZERO.

They are safer than a Gel or AGM battery inside the Motorhome.

 

 

 

 

[Deneb]

aandncaravan - 2017-08-13 12:46 PM

If you are mounting batteries under seats where they are virtually inaccessible, please only use Powerframe technology batteries as these do not Gas at all. The fluid loss is ZERO.

They are safer than a Gel or AGM battery inside the Motorhome.

 

Only problem is that it will be impossible to fit two LFD90 batteries under a standard Ducato seat (and I assume also Boxer/Relay) due to the length of the battery. Two LFD75s would fit, but with a significant reduction in capacity.

[aandncaravan]

I understand the logic of that argument, but it doesn't take into account the rapid loss of capacity of the 'budgets' and what the industry regard as 'over inflated' claims for capacity.

 

Two Varta LFD90's, that don't deteriorate in use to anything like the same level as a 110Ah battery of the same physical size, will usually have more real capacity at the end of one year of use.

 

A quality battery of seemingly lower capacity, will actually be giving back more Amphours on each charge cycle than a typical 110Ah battery, which in our tests have been found to be giving less than 70Ah before 2 years are up.

 

When a battery is designed there are choices that have to be made on Capacity versus Durability.

Generally (very broad brush generalisation for conventional acid batteries) the greater the durability that is required, the lower the battery Ah capacity must be.

 

For example the very durable long life Exide G80 is an 80Ah battery at the physical size of L-353mm, W-175mm, H-190mm of most Motorhome battery boxes.

The Deep Cycle Bosh L5/Varta LFD90 is 90Ah, again in the same physical size as a G80.

The Banner Energy Bull is 100Ah in the same physical package

The similar physical sized budget Lion leisure is a 110Ah battery.

 

 

There were claims a few years ago that some battery manufacturers were charging their batteries at over 16v just prior to performing 'Capacity tests', as such high voltage charging can temporarily give the battery a higher Ah return. You can only do it once as it causes damage to the battery, significantly reducing capacity and life. However, for inflating the figures for 'Capacity' rating purposes, it was worthwhile for some manufacturers to destroy a battery to 'inflate' it's capability.

 

I am not saying this process still goes on, but I challenge anyone to find a quality, real deep cycle wet battery in the above physical size that has a real capacity of greater than 95Ah.

 

Despite the huge resources that Yuasa, Exide, Varta, etc. have at their disposal, none seem to be able to make a wet 110Ah battery in the normal Motorhome size.

Yet the small manufacturers of budget low quality batteries can?

 

Bosch and Varta claim up to 70% better electrical flow for their Wet, Powerframe batteries. That can mean up to to 70% greater real capacity by the time a battery is months old.

Or to look at it another way a budget could have 70% LESS capacity by the time it is months old, partly because it's real capacity may never have been 110Ah in the first place, but also because they corrode inside so quickly, suffering poor electrical flow, lost capacity, Paste shedding, etc.

 

 

In the case of the Hankooks with their 'Starter battery construction', you might need to additionally factor in extra loss of capacity, over the argument above, if the Acid fluid level drops half way down the plates. Clearly that will drop capacity by another 50% over the above figures.

 

We would suggest that if you want the highest, real capacity over many months, the focus should be on a quality battery.

 

I would fit 2 x 75Ah Varta LFD's over a Hankook 90Ah any day of the week. Especially as the difference in cost is only a few pounds!!!

 

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

MickyDee (the original poster) asked about fitting a 2nd leisure-battery to his 2010 Autocruise Rhythm that, currently, has a single leisure-battery (dimensions, make/model, capacity and age of battery unknown) behind the motorhome's driver’s seat.

 

Assuming that the existing battery is not near new, it’s likely that increasing the overall battery Ah capacity would involve junking the present battery. Realistic options then seem to be to have a single big battery behind the driver’s seat, a pair of shorter batteries behind the driver’s seat, a pair of shortish batteries beneath the driver’s seat, or one longer battery beneath the driver’s seat with a matching battery behind the seat.

 

As far as I can make out it should be possible to choose any of those alternatives using batteries from Varta’s LFD range, so choosing an appropriate battery (or batteries) from that range seems the logical thing to do.

[aandncaravan]

Derek, thank you for the excellent summary.

 

One last thing, sorry I know I go on about Batteries but they can create such expense if not 'cared for'.

 

Please don't wait until the battery has gone past it's best before you replace it, it will cause damage to the charging systems. This is especially important if you have expanded the battery bank, thereby already raising the charging systems workload.

 

Almost all the mains charger and Alternator failures we see are from a poor battery. This happens all the time, but a great example this morning :

 

Just looked at a Schaudt Elektroblock EBL 208 today that has been severely overloaded.

I sent an email to the customer saying what we found and suggesting the damage had been caused a poor Habitation battery. He has responded with -

 

"Hi Allan, You're right, I charged the old battery (after the event) and within 3 days it dropped to 9 volts with nothing connected to it, so I have ordered a new battery as per your recommendation.

So please go ahead and repair the EBL208 as per your quote".

 

 

I know batteries can be a big expense, but the Varta LFD90 costs from £92 and has a 4 year warranty.

If it only lasts 4 years, that is an annual cost of just £23.

 

Using it for an extra year brings the annual cost down to £18.5.

Not exactly a big saving to risk so much?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tracker]

aandncaravan - 2017-08-23 11:58 AM

 

I know batteries can be a big expense, but the Varta LFD90 costs from £92 and has a 4 year warranty.

If it only lasts 4 years, that is an annual cost of just £23.

 

Using it for an extra year brings the annual cost down to £18.5.

Not exactly a big saving to risk so much?

 

 

Absolutely right, and although I have never suffered a charger fault, maybe because we didn't ever use mains, I did have to replace an alternator a few years back but in my ignorance did not connect that failure to dodgy leisure batteries.

 

I now know better thanks to Alan's experiences - shame I ain't gotta van anymore innit!!

 

I always assumed that alternators did what it said on the label and chucked out a charge up to their maximum capacity without knackering themselves in the process.

 

Quite apart from anything else the inconvenience of poor leisure batteries, when you don't use ehu to mask their condition, is just not worth faffing about with dying batteries.

[Neil Barb]

Could someone advise how to actually get the driver's seat out please? I've got an air suspension pump fitted in front of it too, and can't for the life of me figure out how to get to the battery.

Thanks in advance.