Secondary gas supply.

[ChrisCM]

I’m hoping to tour Scandinavia in the spring. My Devon Aztec PVC has a 25l built under gas tank. I understand that Autogas stations are a bit thin on the ground up North and non existent in Finland. I have read somewhere that a solution may be to get a local bottle of propane and connect it to an external barbecue point to feed the gas into the van.

 

Thing is, I don’t have a barbecue point and it will cost circa £250 to have one fitted whereas I could get one of the self contained Chinese diesel heater for far less than that.

 

What do you guys think, and is the gas option even doable and safe?

 

 

Chris

 

[Derek Uzzell]

An “Extend A Stay” kit is marketed aimed at RVs that normally have a fixed LPG tank. Information here:

 

https://tinyurl.com/s8tyh9q

 

Obviously, if you wanted the local bottle to deliver propane at full gas pressure, you’d need to connect the bottle to the gas pipework between your tank and the gas-regulator.

 

Installation was discussed here

 

https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/anyone-fitted-an-external-gas-point.166038/

[pepe63xnotuse]

Do you have somewhere suitable to transport and store a stand-alone gas bottle?

(I'm assuming that there isn't a gas locker?)

 

[Wasnt Me]

Have you been quoted for the BBQ point?

 

I fitted one myself and got it connected whilst having my habitation check, cost £20 to connect it.

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

ChrisCM - 2019-12-06 2:42 PM

 

...Thing is, I don’t have a barbecue point and it will cost circa £250 to have one fitted whereas I could get one of the self contained Chinese diesel heater for far less than that....

 

Chris

 

I’m unsure how genuinely ‘self contained’ these inexpensive diesel-fuelled heaters are as, if you are going to mount the appliance inside your motorhome, there will be at least the need for the heater’s exhaust to be routed outside the vehicle.

 

I notice that there’s a fair bit of on-line discussion about these ‘Chinese’ heaters, with the discussion (unsurprisingly) tending to deal with marine usage, but this link involves a motorhome

 

https://motorhomebuilder.com/threads/chinese-diesel-heater.66427/

 

The advantage of the LPG-bottle approach would be that your Devon Aztec’s gas-fuelled appliances for cooking and water heating could continue to be utilised, as well as whatever equipment it has for air heating.

 

According to this link

 

https://www.dss-motorhomes.com/englisch/info-s/gas-supply/

 

Finnish gas bottles can be obtained from “Neste” service statations and rural shops, but you’d need to research what the procedure involves for a foreign motorcaravanner and you’d need to be able to connect the bottle to your motorhome’s filling point.

 

You may have seen this blog

 

https://www.travel-cook-eat.com/how-finland-reduced-our-gas-consumption/

[mikefitz]

Hi Chris,

you can get an adapter to fit the fill point that takes a connector for a butane or propane UK cylinder,

https://www.gasit.co.uk/gas-it-reserved-gas-supply-hose-system-pol.html

you may need further adapters for local gas bottles. Note this will not fill your tank but allow the gas to 'pass through' your empty tank and run appliances. There may be problems in safely storing a gas bottle in a van not designed with a gas locker, as the storage will not comply with regulations, where a sealed vented locker is required.

I spent 3 months is Scandinavia this autumn, and with careful planning managed OK with a 25 litre tank for heating and cooking ( have a compressor fridge). There are no LPG fill stations in Denmark and Finland. Those in Norway are nearly always on industrial estates , self service with card machines, mostly 24 hour service. In Sweden, again in interesting industrial areas, some with self service and card machines, others with an operator, the operator sites had in some cases had strange opening hours. You will need the adapters for the UK style fill point , mostly the dish type. With appropriate connectors its possible to fill portable cylinders, (with 80% cut off ) and most fill stations had scales to facilitate this.

The internet site finder was accurate with location and opening times,

https://www.mylpg.eu/stations/norway/

If your van has a 3 way fridge, and I understand this is the usual fitment to your van, then you will have a fairly high gas consumption that will make planning LPG fill ups an interesting but not impossible task.

 

With touring in early spring you may find some of the higher altitude roads still closed, and many of the camp sites. Its possible to stay overnight nearly everywhere in fantastic locations, park4night,

https://park4night.com/

was useful for this and also gives information about water supplies and cassette dumping points. Many of the major road rest areas have dedicated cassette empty points.

 

The main road north in Norway has many toll sections as do major towns/cities and some bridges and tunnels. Norway has lots of very long tunnels , one of the most interesting was a 8km single track tunnel with passing places.

 

If travelling to the very north its best to use the faster toll free roads through Sweden and Finland. The most cost effective way to get to Sweden is to use the Grenna, Denmark, to Varberg ferry.

 

Mike

 

 

 

 

[Van Fan]

Having an underslung LPG tank myself, I have often wondered how I would get along with the dwindling number of outlets in the UK.

 

Perhaps a solution lies in this device https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-authorized-GASIT-lpg-refillable-emergency-refill-pipe-for-spare-calor-bot/254099156828

 

It is designed for a standard POL type cylinder, maybe the vendor could advise if they had anything to suit cylinders bought in other countries.

 

 

[ChrisCM]

Hi Guys,

 

Thanks for all the reply’s, I’ll reply fully when I’ve researched the various links.

 

Chris

 

 

[peterjl]

Hi

 

The question is whether or not you need to top up your 24l gas tank.

 

We spent 6 weeks in Sweden and Norway with 2 small 6kg gas low tanks which is about 24l. We travelled in May and June and used campsites with electricity about every 3rd night. We certainly did not have to fill with lpg in that time.

 

Also there are some lpg pumps in Scandinavia even if they are not everywhere so you can top up periodically.

 

We are going again next year and certainly will not worry about extra gas.

 

Peter

[Derek Uzzell]

This webpage refers to the availability of “Teboil” LPG cylinders in Finland.

 

https://www.teboil.fi/en/products/teboil-lpg/

 

As warned by mikefitz and Van Fan above, if the GAS IT reserve-hose product were to be used there’s every likelihood that an adapter (or adapters) would be required to go between the POL connector of the GAS IT hose and the Finnish gas bottle.

[mikejkay]

Derek Uzzell - 2019-12-07 9:11 AM

 

This webpage refers to the availability of “Teboil” LPG cylinders in Finland.

 

https://www.teboil.fi/en/products/teboil-lpg/

 

That is very interesting. The photograph on the Teboil website show a LPG tank with what looks like a standard pump.

 

I have, for the last three summers, travelled widely in Finland en-route to northern Norway but I have never seen an LPG pump in Finland. I had read that LPG was not available in Finland so I did not look too hard :-D .

 

Has anybody managed to fill a built in tank or bottles with an external filler in Finland? Could it be that Teboil will not supply LPG to motorhomes?

 

It would be really helpfull to know that I can get LPG in Finland. I have two 13kg bottles filled externally. I go to great lengths to ensure that I am topped up in Sweden before crossing to Finland. The gas lasts until I get to Alta having spent three weeks on the Varanger Peninsula but by the time that I get to Alta I am getting worried :-D .

[mikejkay]

FYI I have just emailed Teboil. See what they say.

[ChrisCM]

I think that the hose suggested by Mikefitz is just what I'm looking for. I already carry a smal, 3.9 Kg, propane cylinder for my Cadac Safari Chef so this would give me the option of using this as a reserve also. Only problem may be sourcing the adapters for foreign bottles, the Gas It site suggests they do have these but I couldn't find them, Ill give them a ring n Monday.

 

I don't have a dedicated locker for the gas cylinder but it is strapped down so as the valve is screwed down tightly when in the van I think its safe enough.

 

Mikejkay, be interested to see what Teboil have to say!

 

Chris

[mikejkay]

Chris

 

If they reply I'll post it.

 

[ChrisCM]

Thanks!

[Derek Uzzell]

ChrisCM - 2019-12-07 3:55 PM

 

 

...Only problem may be sourcing the adapters for foreign bottles, the Gas It site suggests they do have these but I couldn't find them, Ill give them a ring on Monday...

 

Chris

 

The Teboil website states that gas cylinders for household use can be

 

2kg, 5kg and 11kg steel cylinders and light 6kg and 10kg composite cylinders, all equipped with click-on valves

 

or

 

an 11kg steel cylinder equipped with a screw valve

 

There is a Wikipedia section on gas-bottle valves that suggests that the Finnish bottles with a click-on outlet-valve may not all use the same connector type. If that were so (and you chose one of the click-on-valve bottles) you’d need a ‘full pressure’ adapter to attach to the appropriate click-on valve, and then you’d need to be able to connect the GAS IT reserve hose to that adapter.

 

I THINK the outlet of the Finnish 11kg steel cyliinder is W 21.8 x 1/14” LH type. If that’s correct, this GAS IT reserve hose

 

https://www.gasit.co.uk/gas-reserve-hose-system-uk-21-8-lh-butane-type-nut.html

 

may connect directly to that bottle and avoid the need for any adapter.

 

(In fact, whatever the valves on Finnish gas bottles are, there’s a higher chance of connecting the ‘butane type’ reserve hose to them (either directly or via a full pressure adapter) than with the POL version.)

[ChrisCM]

Thanks Derek,

 

I was thinking that the 5Kg or 6kg sizes would be the most convenient to transport, i don't really have room for an 11kg bottle!. I'll have to look into the valve type they use and see if an adapter to pol is available! From what I've read so far a lot of the Scandinavian countries use German standard fittings so may be the same for Finland!

 

Chris

[Derek Uzzell]

Images of various portable LPG bottles available in Finland can be seen here

 

https://tinyurl.com/uw5mhtf

 

The composite botles are the “BP Gaslight” type (now marketed in the UK by FloGas)

 

https://www.gaslightbottle.co.uk/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI7unUiMml5gIViKztCh3AUQJYEAAYASAAEgJtKvD_BwE

 

and are likely to be manufactured by Hexagon Ragasco in Norway.

 

https://www.hexagonragasco.com/products/composite-lpg-cylinders/composite-lpg-cylinders

 

The photos of the small bottles (composite or steel) indicate that a ‘click-on’ connector woud normally be used (as is the case with the Flogas bottles and Calor’s 7kg and 15kg butane cylinders) but it’s possible that different types of click-on connector would be used with different brands of Finnish bottle, and there’s definitely no certainty that the click-on connectors used with that the Flogas composite bottle or Calor 7kg/15kg butane bottles would be suitable for Finnish bottles.

 

This Finnish webpage has a photo showing composite and steel bottles in various sizes

 

http://www.woikoski.fi/fi/yksityisille/muut-tuotteet/nestekaasu

 

and the text reads

 

We sell LPG in various sizes of steel and composite bottles through our distributors.

 

Dealers selling at Woikoski's promotional price can be found at

 

https://www.nestekaasu.fi/

 

There you will also find more detailed information on bottle sizes and safety.

 

Woikoski's quality management system, which includes the manufacture, filling and distribution of industrial, pharmaceutical, food, specialty and liquefied gases, has been ISO 9001: 2015 certified. The standard guarantees high-quality operations in all areas of Woikoski.

 

For home use, LPG is excellent for cooking, barbecuing, radiation heating and leisure activities. The largest users are households, boats and caravans.

 

Depending on the application, the bottle can be selected with a pressure or side valve (screw valve).

 

LPG bottles are filled at Woikoski's Pirkkala filling plant.

 

The safety instructions on the www.nestekaasu.fi website include the photo I’ve attached below and this shows a ‘jumbo’ connector (or regulator) being used. It also shows that female LH-threaded nuts are employed in the hose connectors, so (as I suggested above) the GAS IT ‘butane type’ reserve hose might directly connect. One thing's for sure, a POL-type connector would demand an adapter and, as the adapter would quite likely need to be the POL-to-butane type (example here)

 

https://www.gasit.co.uk/leisure-gas-refillable-products/7-gas-pipes-pigtails-and-vapour-tank-accessories/gas-bottle-butane-gas-outlet-to-uk-pol-propane-adaptors.html

 

it would make better sense to opt for the ‘butane type’ reserve hose in the first place.

[ChrisCM]

Hi Derek,

 

Thanks for the info, looks like the problem may be getting the correct non regulator clip on hp fitting that I can then adapt to POL. I know such pigtails are available in the UK to put between calor butane and fixed regulators, in fact I had one in a caravan I had several years ago so should be doable.

 

Just out of interest, I wonder if the reserve to fixed tank would work if it was supplied via a regulator or would the pressure be too low? Its always going to be easier to pick up a local regulator and, as it is LP, simply join this to the POL perhaps via a barbed to POL (if such a thing is available?)

 

Chris

 

Just found this, just wonder how "universal" the clip on fitting is?

Link

[Derek Uzzell]

I'm starting to despair...

 

If you were to use a GAS IT reserve hose, (as I said above) you would need a full-pressure connection to the gas bottle - a 2nd regulator on the bottle would be no good.

 

I really don't know why you'd want to adapt a POL fitting when a reserve hose is available with a 'butane type' end fitting.

 

Click-on connectors are not universal - even in the UK they vary.

 

You might consider obtaining a Flogas composite bottle in the UK and a suitable reserve hose and adapter that would allow that bottle to be connected to your LPG tank. That way you'd know you'd have a back-up gas supply when you entered Finland and (hopefully) not need to faff about with Finnish gas containers.

 

Or you could research what connectors are used on Finnish bottles by asking on a Finnish motorhome/caravan forum.

[ChrisCM]

Hi Derek,

 

Please don't despair! The reason I want to use the POL reserve hose is so that I can use my existing small calor bottle easily, If I do go down this line I'll also get the POL to Butane type adapter as well, I suppose I could go the other way Butane Reserve hose with a Butane to POL adapter.

 

Regarding the full pressure adapter, this is what I suspected, just wondered if it would work with a regulated supply into the reserve hose.

 

What a pity there is no standardisation across Europe, perhaps one day!

 

Chris

[mikefitz]

I think you are over complicating the issue. Its possible to have a reasonable idea of gas consumption by experience or calculation and a full tank should, at a guess, last at least 10 days, even with prolonged periods of heating. Unless you intend to spend a long time in Finland there should be no problems with the built in capacity. Just plan your itinerary to include LPG stations and keep the tank topped up.

Using a refillable bottle, as suggested by Derek,

http://www.safefill.co.uk/

may be one solution, although having gas storage inside the van, that may be unsafe and against regulations is not something I would normally ,advise.

As I indicated in my earlier post the LPG station setup in Norway and Sweden is also for DIY bottle fill up, indeed this seems to be the major use amongst locals.

 

I would think having an external gas cylinder connected to the fill point via an high pressure pigtail may be not be acceptable on campsites or public parking areas, and then there is the security aspect to consider.

Once the main tank is empty, no gas appliance will function without connecting the reserve bottle. Attempting to operate heating and cooking appliances via an external temporary connection whilst on a motor home touring holiday would seem impractical and perhaps stresful.

 

Mike

[Keithl]

Chris,

 

Check the T & C of whichever Ferry or Tunnel route you are planning on using as some have very strict conditions on the number of cylinders, total quantity of gas and locations of cylinders.

 

As an example we looked at crossing on the now discontinued DFDS Harwich to Esbjerg ferry and at the time they would not allow 2 x 13 kg of Calor! This would have meant us having to swap our 13 kg for 6 kg just to satisfy there requirements then run the risk of not having enough gas for our five week trip! Although I see they now do allow up to 3 cylinders with a combined total weight of 47 kg.

 

Unrestrained cylinders may still not be allowed.

 

Keith.

[Derek Uzzell]

Using a ‘native’ gas-bottle abroad is premised on it actually being able to obtain such a bottle in the country where it is to be used. I wondered if there were any restrictions that might prevent a ‘foreigner’ obtaining a Finnish gas-bottle in Finland and found this 2011 discussion

 

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/destinations/taking_campervan_to_scandinavia-484045

 

with the following comment by user-name TobyA

 

...we use a refillable canister for our's here in Finland. You 'buy' the bottle the first time you get it (i.e. pay a deposit on it) and then swap it for full ones when the gas runs out. We got ours from Bauhaus which is a German owned DIY chain like B&Q, I think they have them in the other Nordic countries as well. I think all over Finland you can swap for full cannister at many petrol stations.

 

This Bauhaus webpage

 

https://www.bauhaus.fi/piha-ja-puutarha/grillit-ja-tarvikkeet/nestekaasut.html

 

shows a selection of bottles and the two prices for each bottle (as I understand it) represent the initial cost to acquire the bottle and the subsequent cost of exchanging it for a full replacement.

 

I echo mikefitz’s view - given the unknowns in obtaining and connecting a Finnish bottle, if I were in Chris’s shoes I’d enter Finland with a full LPG tank and leave well before the tank approached empty. Presumably the LPG tank on Chris’s Devon Aztec has a reasonably accurate contents-gauge that he could employ to regularly monitor usage during his Finland visit.

[Derek Uzzell]

I notice that the standard specification of a 2015 Devon Aztec (like Chris’s) includes the capability to carry a pair of 3.9kg Calor (propane) gas bottles housed in a seat-base gas-locker accessed after the motorhome’s rear doors have been opened (photo attached below). A 25-litre LPG tank is an option and Chris’s Aztec has this.

 

Chris mentions above that the attraction of choosing a ‘POL connector’ GAS IT reserve hose was "so that I can use my existing small calor bottle easily”, which suggests that either the standard gas-locker may still be retained when the optional LPG tank is fitted, or that there is still sufficient space within the seat-base in which to store upright one or two Calor 3.9kg bottles. A Calor 3.9kg bottle contains about 7.6 litres of propane which (one might think) should be adequate as a back-up if the Aztec’s LPG tank’s contents run low while travelling in Finland. (If a single 3.9kg bottle were considered insufficient, take two.)

 

Purchasing a GAS IT reserve hose makes some sense for visiting Finland when a UK motorhome just has an LPG tank, but it would be much simpler (and cheaper) to carry the back-up propane gas with you in UK bottles, than to carry no back-up gas and then try to obtain a Finnish bottle and attach it to the GAS IT reserve hose.