Sheared bolt problem, engine removal at Fiat professional garage .Advice please.

[tringy]

Hi all , i booked in at a Fiat professional in Spain for a cambelt change and a service. On dismantling they’ve sheared one of the bolts off holding the water pump on. They said it was not assembled correctly when built and corrosion on the bolt was caused by not putting protective lubricant on them . They told me that the next day a specialist would come to drill it out. We went in to a hotel for one night. We arrived at the garage the next morning at 11 30 to find the problem had escalated, we are not sure if the specialist had turned up or they had tried to get it out themselves but it is well mullered now and they say that the complete engine has to come out at a cost of a estimated 2500 euros. I have photos of after but not just as the bolt was sheared clean. I have contacted Fiat and that is on going but it’s 6 years and 3months old now. Overdue for cambelt change I know this was the first opportunity to get it done since lockdown. Any thoughts and advice would be appreciated. 2015 Autotrail 2.3 150 x290 . Regards Tringy.

[stevec176]

Access might be the problem with the engine in situ. They will need to drill the old bolt out and then tap a new thread. If there's part of the bolt still showing then heat and cold is often a way to break the stick but if you say it's now all chewed up then that option is probably out. Think you're going to have to pay up and argue later, good luck.

[747]

stevec176 - 2021-09-18 11:10 AM

 

Access might be the problem with the engine in situ. They will need to drill the old bolt out and then tap a new thread. If there's part of the bolt still showing then heat and cold is often a way to break the stick but if you say it's now all chewed up then that option is probably out. Think you're going to have to pay up and argue later, good luck.

 

They don't need to tap a new thread. There are numerous ways to address the problem. Drilling the stud, followed by a bit of gentle heat (to neutralise the effect of any thread locking fluid used in assembly) and a stud extractor will solve the problem

 

The Fiat garage must stand the cost as it is their negligence. The bolt was possibly treated with Loctite (other brands are available) on the threads and some clown has either used an impact wrench or suddenly applied weight too heavily. Any mechanical tradesman worth his salt would know that will potentially do damage. The trouble is there is a shortage of good tradesmen around, plenty of spanner monkeys though. *-)

[Tracker]

If you have a breakdown provider or AA/RAC membership or similar now might be a good time to talk to them?

Failing that someone on your side with a good grasp of Spanish might help make your position more effectively known?

[tringy]

Thanks for your reply, I went to the extra expense to have it done at a fiat professional garage thinking it’s their experience I am paying for but it seems not to be the case. Before I retired I worked in engineering and that’s why I am so angry about it and the language barrier is a problem and seems to being used as an excuse. I am not sure where we will end up.

[weldted]

customerservicesengland@customercare.fcagroup.com Marco Verpilo. Fiat do have a system where they may help with unforeseen problems up to 6 years, as long as the van has been serviced at their set intervals.

 

During the build the bolts are not installed with a thread lock just a light oiling. There have been reported cases where this has happened as the bolt being steel has corroded in the aluminium block.

 

Make sure you ask the garage for both parts of the offending bolt as you may well have to provide an independent engineers report.

 

Hope this helps.

[tringy]

Yes, we are using the AA and they have been very helpful in fixing accommodations and taxis and hire car but that’s as far as they can go as it’s not been a accident or a road breakdown.

[Tracker]

tringy - 2021-09-18 2:24 PM

 

Yes,we are using the AA and they have been very helpful in fixing accommodations and taxis and hire car but that’s as far as they can go as it’s not been a accident or a road brake down.

 

I hear what you say - but it could be classed as 'accidental' damage?

[weldted]

One of the conditions of most breakdown/recovery firms, is you must have the vehicle serviced as according to the makers spec. That’s what you were doing, you might argue that it is a breakdown owing to a component failing?/

[John52]

747 - 2021-09-18 11:41 AM

 

stevec176 - 2021-09-18 11:10 AM

 

Access might be the problem with the engine in situ. They will need to drill the old bolt out and then tap a new thread. If there's part of the bolt still showing then heat and cold is often a way to break the stick but if you say it's now all chewed up then that option is probably out. Think you're going to have to pay up and argue later, good luck.

 

They don't need to tap a new thread. There are numerous ways to address the problem. Drilling the stud, followed by a bit of gentle heat (to neutralise the effect of any thread locking fluid used in assembly) and a stud extractor will solve the problem

 

The Fiat garage must stand the cost as it is their negligence. The bolt was possibly treated with Loctite (other brands are available) on the threads and some clown has either used an impact wrench or suddenly applied weight too heavily. Any mechanical tradesman worth his salt would know that will potentially do damage. The trouble is there is a shortage of good tradesmen around, plenty of spanner monkeys though. *-)

 

I disagree

Anybody can snap a stud untightening the nut on an old(ish) engine

If you had done many you would know that

(or tried to drill a hardened stud thats snapped at an angle - especially when you can't get to it)

[Tracker]

If a bolt has never been removed from new and it seems too tight to release an experienced mechanic would stop trying to force it and apply some heat to the area prior to another go, preferably the casing if accessible, especially if this is a known problem as this does appear to be.

Many of us untrained but experienced diyers know this, it being common sense.

There is little doubt in my mind that the garage is culpable, if not 100% then at least as far as labour cost is concerned. It could be argued that they would pay the mechanic whatever he was doing and in that respect it would actually cost them nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Bolts rarely shear flat and smooth and drilling it out into an aluminium casing in situ is not something I would fancy trying - but then I am but an amateur!

[tonyishuk]

Similar problem with our Fiat X250 cam belt change, luckily the broken stud was get- at-able but still pricy to fix.

 

Maybe a common unreported problem here.

 

Rgds

[747]

John52 - 2021-09-18 5:19 PM

 

747 - 2021-09-18 11:41 AM

 

stevec176 - 2021-09-18 11:10 AM

 

Access might be the problem with the engine in situ. They will need to drill the old bolt out and then tap a new thread. If there's part of the bolt still showing then heat and cold is often a way to break the stick but if you say it's now all chewed up then that option is probably out. Think you're going to have to pay up and argue later, good luck.

 

They don't need to tap a new thread. There are numerous ways to address the problem. Drilling the stud, followed by a bit of gentle heat (to neutralise the effect of any thread locking fluid used in assembly) and a stud extractor will solve the problem

 

The Fiat garage must stand the cost as it is their negligence. The bolt was possibly treated with Loctite (other brands are available) on the threads and some clown has either used an impact wrench or suddenly applied weight too heavily. Any mechanical tradesman worth his salt would know that will potentially do damage. The trouble is there is a shortage of good tradesmen around, plenty of spanner monkeys though. *-)

 

I disagree

Anybody can snap a stud untightening the nut on an old(ish) engine

If you had done many you would know that

(or tried to drill a hardened stud thats snapped at an angle - especially when you can't get to it)

 

I did it a few times over my 50 year career in engineering. ;-)

 

It is not a high tensile hardened steel stud either. Stick to what you know best.

[John52]

747

 

I don't know what you were doing but you certainly didn't dismantle many used engines if you have never snapped a stud.

I have had them snap under even light torque

Do you know anything that you could stick to?

[747]

John52 - 2021-09-19 7:32 AM

 

747

 

I don't know what you were doing but you certainly didn't dismantle many used engines if you have never snapped a stud.

I have had them snap under even light torque

Do you know anything that you could stick to?

 

This is not chatterbox, stop trolling and baiting.

[Brian Kirby]

747 - 2021-09-19 8:35 AM

John52 - 2021-09-19 7:32 AM

747

I don't know what you were doing but you certainly didn't dismantle many used engines if you have never snapped a stud.

I have had them snap under even light torque

Do you know anything that you could stick to?

This is not chatterbox, stop trolling and baiting.

Agreed, or at least try to disagree respectfully. No-one knows everything.

[Tracker]

tonyishuk - 2021-09-18 9:42 PM

 

Similar problem with our Fiat X250 cam belt change, luckily the broken stud was get- at-able but still pricy to fix.

 

Maybe a common unreported problem here.

 

Rgds

 

I agree, these are Fiat appointed PROFESSIONALS and they should be aware of the risks and the known issues and how to overcome them?

I would be surprised if Fiat were unaware of the problem, although they might well claim so?

I was never a professional mechanic but even as an amateur working on car and boat (think salt water corrosion) engines I was aware of the potential for bolts/studs to shear.

That said it does happen to the best of us but the individual mechanic and his employer should shoulder some of the responsibility and not blame it entirely on the owner.

[Bulletguy]

tringy - 2021-09-18 2:24 PM

 

Yes, we are using the AA and they have been very helpful in fixing accommodations and taxis and hire car but that’s as far as they can go as it’s not been a accident or a road breakdown.

They should also be able to help with an interpreter. All AA breakdown calls in Europe are dealt with by their centre in Lyon and they will certainly have Spanish speakers among their operatives. I know your situation isn't technically a breakdown as such, or wasn't when your van first went in, but have you asked if they will repatriate your van back to UK? They probably won't as it can be repaired in Spain at the Fiat garage, but it's worth asking, though explain the reason why.

 

You need someone capable of mediating which means getting an interpreter who will empathise with your situation and help get it over to the Fiat garage. At least they might be able to lessen the blow of a 2500 euro bill and perhaps get the garage to reach some middle ground with you. So far i'm afraid it's looking likely to be a case of paying up to get the job done and mark it down as a bad experience you want to forget about.

[John52]

747 - 2021-09-19 8:35 AM

 

John52 - 2021-09-19 7:32 AM

 

747

 

I don't know what you were doing but you certainly didn't dismantle many used engines if you have never snapped a stud.

I have had them snap under even light torque

Do you know anything that you could stick to?

 

This is not chatterbox, stop trolling and baiting.

 

You started it telling me to stick to something else

And you shouldn't blame the mechanic for a snapped stud as it is unlikely to be his fault.

Thats trolling and baiting too.

Anybody with experience of stripping down used engines would tell you that.

I've done it myself - put a spanner on a nut, turned it as normal and it snapped just like that

If it was a nuclear submarine, instead of a van, the studs etc would have gone through far more rigorous quality control.

[747]

Tracker - 2021-09-19 12:54 PM

 

tonyishuk - 2021-09-18 9:42 PM

 

Similar problem with our Fiat X250 cam belt change, luckily the broken stud was get- at-able but still pricy to fix.

 

Maybe a common unreported problem here.

 

Rgds

 

I agree, these are Fiat appointed PROFESSIONALS and they should be aware of the risks and the known issues and how to overcome them?

I would be surprised if Fiat were unaware of the problem, although they might well claim so?

I was never a professional mechanic but even as an amateur working on car and boat (think salt water corrosion) engines I was aware of the potential for bolts/studs to shear.

That said it does happen to the best of us but the individual mechanic and his employer should shoulder some of the responsibility and not blame it entirely on the owner.

 

I totally agree with that.

 

With computerised systems any problems should be swiftly relayed to the Technical Department, issues carefully looked into and instructions passed back to Service Managers. It will of course be a number of years for this particular problem to become apparent but the word should have been out long before now.

[tringy]

Thanks very much for all your reply’s, its great to have a wealth of knowledge and support and it’s certainly helped me get my head around my situation. What ever the outcome, I will NOT buy another Fiat. I now have had quite a bit of trouble over 3 Fiat powered motorhomes and 1 car and that’s it , I have had enough.

Thanks again. Regards Tringy.

[John52]

Well I have undone thousands of nuts on used engines, no problem at all. Then undone another in exactly the same way as all the others but the stud snapped. :-S

I am sure that anyone with experience of stripping used engines would tell you the same.

So I don't think the mechanic is to blame

If it was still under guarantee I would say its Fiat's responsibility

But the longer its outside the guarantee the more blurred it becomes :-S

[Tracker]

tringy - 2021-09-20 1:59 PM

 

Thanks very much for all your reply’s, its great to have a wealth of knowledge and support and it’s certainly helped me get my head around my situation. What ever the outcome, I will NOT buy another Fiat. I now have had quite a bit of trouble over 3 Fiat powered motorhomes and 1 car and that’s it , I have had enough.

Thanks again. Regards Tringy.

 

You have been unlucky mainly perhaps with your chosen garage (no criticism of yourself).

I have had a few Fiat/Peugeot powered vans over 30 or so years and covered a lot of miles home and abroad.

Maybe I have been lucky but never a moment's problems that could not easily be resolved with any of 'em.

Never anything newer than 2011 and perhaps therein lies a tale of under tested development of new technology in the name of cost cutting and political expedience and not as a direct result of engineering progress?

I hope to buy another van soon and it will probably be a Sevel type Fiat/Peugeot - but it will not be a Euro 6 as we have little interest in going into towns and cities and I distrust the technology in use.

I don't believe your present issue to be unique to Fiat - it could happen with any make and any garage.

[Brian Kirby]

I have now been able to consult a (very experienced and knowledgeable contact, with detailed knowledge of the Fiat engines), regarding this issue. He has looked at this post, and has offered the following comments:

 

"The first thing I have to do is question the competence of the workshop in question. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY replaces the water pump on a Ducato 2.3 without good reason. A good reason might be a 250,000 mile vehicle that is demonstrably leaking coolant from behind the pump. It is an expensive item and is designed to last the lifetime of the engine. This is not to be confused with the plastic nonsense fitted to other vehicles; it is a large aluminium casting with high quality parts inside.

 

Anyway. ....

 

They did decide to remove it, and a bolt has sheared off. This should not be a huge surprise because steel bolts into aluminium is always a stupid idea, and the inevitable corrosion is always likely to be a problem.

 

The screws securing the cam cover often break. As one reader commented though, bolts do not just suddenly snap. The technician should have noticed the tightness and considered applying freeing agents or heat before just winding it off!

 

However...

 

To an experienced and competent mechanic; this should still not be a major issue. The engine mount has already been removed and with the rear mount also undone and the engine supported appropriately, the motor can be lifted up or dropped by a surprising amount to gain better access. I had a number of issues with the old 2.8 Sofim engine which had a history of broken cam belt tensioner screws and I purchased a right angled drill that 'just' fitted in the gap available and this sort of thing will be necessary here.

 

I strongly recommend that Fiat UK are involved so that the language problem can be addressed and so that the workshop cannot get away with any more preposterous scare tactics. I mean, even the engine being pulled out, repaired and put back in is a far more plausible suggestion than a new engine!"

 

(My bold and italics above for clarity as to author)

 

I have followed up his comments with a couple of further questions, and will update if/when he is able to reply.

 

I appreciate that under present circumstances there is not really time for continued debate, but if you haven't, I strongly suggest you take up his urging to engage Fiat UK on your behalf.

 

I would also suggest that you redouble your efforts with your breakdown insurer to give you assistance. It is true the vehicle did not actually break down on the road, but the Fiat approved garage to which you took the vehicle has now converted it from a vehicle performing normally to one that is completely undriveable and inoperable, so even if it didn't technically break down, it is now incapable of being moved under its own motive power, which should rate as pretty well broken down. One does not need a "fourth emergency service" that falls back a narrow technicality to re-define "emergency" in their favour! I think they owe you better than that.

[747]

My background is in engineering. The vehicles I have owned have not been bought because they are flashy, fast or babe magnets. They have been what I considered the best option to get me from A to B without problems. That is the reason I have never owned a post 2007 Fiat Ducato based motorhome .... and I never will. I will admit that the Fiat 2.8 jtd was not a bad engine, such a pity that the 5 speed gearbox had poor gear ratios.

 

I am just in the process of selling my Burstner. I will miss the 3.0 Nissan Z series engine that never missed a beat in 7 years and the 6 speed box that was a pleasure to drive. As far as I know, nobody has taken a spanner to the engine, apart from changing oil and air filters etc.

 

Fiat is a budget brand so don't complain if you have problems. :D