Shell and refillable gas bottles

[747]

I spoke to Shell UK today and it is their policy that refillable gas bottles (Gaslow, Alugas etc.) cannot be filled at their forecourts.

 

This came about when I was refused a refill at my local Shell garage in September. The Autogas pump has a notice with restrictions to service and a bottle is shown on it. My email was ignored, so I rang them today when we got back from our trip. After doing some checking, the person at Shell UK complaints department affirmed that bottles cannot be refilled.

 

I must say that I have filled my bottle there numerous times over the last couple of years. This problem came about because the pump would not start when I attached the nozzle to my fill point and needed the attendant.

 

Before anyone says that they have had no problem filling Autogas at Shell garages, I never had either when I did it myself. It came to light when an attendant was involved and confirmed today by Shell Customer Service at their headquarters.

 

So, if your bottle is shaped like a bottle then you should not be filling it at a Shell outlet. It is a pity as my local Shell garage is convenient for Autogas (and fairly cheap). There are alternatives to them and I will not now be buying their diesel either.

[pepe63xnotuse]

I'll ask the obvious...Do you have a remote fill point,mounted on the outside of the vehicle?...or is it within the gas locker?...

[747]

pepe63 - 2012-10-03 4:32 PM

 

I'll ask the obvious...Do you have a remote fill point,mounted on the outside of the vehicle?...or is it within the gas locker?...

 

What has that got to do with anything?

 

Check the reply from Shell in the following link and you will see that filkling bottles WHATEVER THE SETUP is illegal.

 

http://www.touringandtenting.com/forums/index.php?/topic/41014-the-gas-issue-self-filling/

[pepe63xnotuse]

747 - 2012-10-03 4:43 PM

 

pepe63 - 2012-10-03 4:32 PM

 

I'll ask the obvious...Do you have a remote fill point,mounted on the outside of the vehicle?...or is it within the gas locker?...

 

What has that got to do with anything?

 

Well...for all I/we knew,you could've been fumbling about with a loose bottle and filling it via a cheapie ebay "adaptor"!...THAT was why I asked the question! *-)

 

 

[Guest JudgeMental]

but if you have remote filling and dont draw attention to yourself? they are probably to busy to even notice *-)

 

Pepe :-D reply actually says if compliant lpg system in camper, it is OK to fill :D

 

some idiot waving a bottle around..what do they expect

[crinklystarfish]

So it seems:

Vessels which are attached to a vehicle for heating or cooking (on camper
vans or similar) present similar risks on filling to those for propulsion
purposes and may be permitted to be re-filled at autogas refuelling sites
provided they:
• remain in-situ for refilling; and
• are fitted with a device to physically prevent filling beyond 80%; and
• are connected to a fixed filling connector which is not part of the
vessel.

So what's new?

The question regarding setup / position of filling point is entirely appropriate.

[Mel B]

747 - 2012-10-03 4:43 PM

 

pepe63 - 2012-10-03 4:32 PM

 

I'll ask the obvious...Do you have a remote fill point,mounted on the outside of the vehicle?...or is it within the gas locker?...

 

What has that got to do with anything?

 

Check the reply from Shell in the following link and you will see that filkling bottles WHATEVER THE SETUP is illegal.

 

http://www.touringandtenting.com/forums/index.php?/topic/41014-the-gas-issue-self-filling/

I actually read it differently (unless I've missed a bit somewhere!), as it says:

 

"Formerly LPGA Information Sheet 24 – June 2007

FILLING OF USER OWNED, PORTABLE REFILLABLE LPG CYLINDERS AT AUTOGAS REFUELLING SITES

 

It is our advice that user owned, portable LPG cylinders should not be refilled at autogas refuelling sites.

 

Vessels which are attached to a vehicle for heating or cooking (on camper vans or similar) present similar risks on filling to those for propulsion purposes and may be permitted to be re-filled at autogas refuelling sites provided they:

• remain in-situ for refilling; and

• are fitted with a device to physically prevent filling beyond 80%; and

• are connected to a fixed filling connector which is not part of the vessel.

As the above is 'advice' I suggest that it is ultimately down to the individual stations to decide if they will permit it or not anyway.

 

However, as my Gaslow is attached (ie secured in the locker and is connected physically to the van by the hose), has an 80% cut-off device, and is filled by a fixed filling connector I don't see how is DOESN'T conform ... :-S

[spartacus]

747 - 2012-10-03 4:43 PM

 

pepe63 - 2012-10-03 4:32 PM

 

I'll ask the obvious...Do you have a remote fill point,mounted on the outside of the vehicle?...or is it within the gas locker?...

 

What has that got to do with anything?

 

Check the reply from Shell in the following link and you will see that filkling bottles WHATEVER THE SETUP is illegal.

 

http://www.touringandtenting.com/forums/index.php?/topic/41014-the-gas-issue-self-filling/

 

Surely It cannot be illegal as parliament haven't passed a law prohibiting it, although it MAY be contrary to Shells H&S policy. What's the difference in a car with an LPG conversion filling up?

 

Reading the link it appears that it is permitted if the vehicle in question and it's equipment comply with the following conditions:

 

• remain in-situ for refilling; and

• are fitted with a device to physically prevent filling beyond 80%; and

• are connected to a fixed filling connector which is not part of the vessel.

 

An EU compliant cylinder fixed in the gas locker, with an 80% cut-off and plumbed to an external fill point would seem to fit the above criteria.

 

Looks to me like another example of poorly informed staff imposing rules that they are not fully briefed on.

 

[747]

Mine is a professionally fitted Alugas bottle (I should have made that clear, sorry).

 

It is however retained in the locker with a strap (like every other bottle on a m/home and therefore illegal in that respect alone).

 

Whether there is an externaly fitted filling point or not makes no difference whatsoever. It is illegal (according to Shell) to fill a BOTTLE. I am not shouting BTW, there is no 'bold' option to emphasise a point.

 

I am not stopping anyone from carrying on as normal but you need to be aware that you can be refused service and there is no comeback. I was extremely annoyed with Shell but as I have said, I have other options.

 

This is a strange situation because Autogas is a joint venture with Shell and Calor. A few miles from me is a Calor outlet where I can legally fill up with Calor Gas from a pump and only pay 5% VAT as it is for heating and cooking only.

 

The included paragraph is not confusing to me.

 

Quote.

 

Safe filling of LPG cylinders requires appropriate expertise and/or equipment. Staff at

autogas refuelling sites cannot fulfil statutory obligations as they have neither.

Were there to be any accident the site operator could be liable to prosecution.

This view has been confirmed in the Minutes of the HSE Petroleum Enforcement

Liaison Group meeting of 7

th

July 2005 which states “PLAs should consider

issuing a prohibition notice if their inspectors discover a site which allows

members of the public to refill gas cylinders”.

 

[crinklystarfish]

That quote is preceded by the exemption regarding fixed cylinders etc.

You have been speaking to an idiot.

[Guest JudgeMental]

also the quote is about filling "cylinders" presumably loose? as they have already said a fixed system is allowed *-) 8-)

 

 

some crinkley porn :-D

 

Tischer demountable at Lake Trasimeno

[fairweather camper]

747 - 2012-10-03 5:14 PM

 

Mine is a professionally fitted Alugas bottle (I should have made that clear, sorry).

 

It is however retained in the locker with a strap (like every other bottle on a m/home and therefore illegal in that respect alone).

 

Whether there is an externaly fitted filling point or not makes no difference whatsoever. It is illegal (according to Shell) to fill a BOTTLE. I am not shouting BTW, there is no 'bold' option to emphasise a point.

 

I am not stopping anyone from carrying on as normal but you need to be aware that you can be refused service and there is no comeback. I was extremely annoyed with Shell but as I have said, I have other options.

 

This is a strange situation because Autogas is a joint venture with Shell and Calor. A few miles from me is a Calor outlet where I can legally fill up with Calor Gas from a pump and only pay 5% VAT as it is for heating and cooking only.

 

The included paragraph is not confusing to me.

 

Quote.

 

Safe filling of LPG cylinders requires appropriate expertise and/or equipment. Staff at

autogas refuelling sites cannot fulfil statutory obligations as they have neither.

Were there to be any accident the site operator could be liable to prosecution.

This view has been confirmed in the Minutes of the HSE Petroleum Enforcement

Liaison Group meeting of 7

th

July 2005 which states “PLAs should consider

issuing a prohibition notice if their inspectors discover a site which allows

members of the public to refill gas cylinders”.

I spoke to Shell today and I think this quote relates to ordinary bottles, NOT refillable ones, the person I spoke to said that if you have an external filler there should be no problem

[Guest JudgeMental]

storm in tea cup :D

[Mel B]

747 - 2012-10-03 5:14 PM

 

Whether there is an externaly fitted filling point or not makes no difference whatsoever. It is illegal (according to Shell) to fill a BOTTLE. I am not shouting BTW, there is no 'bold' option to emphasise a point.

 

Oh yes there is!!! and underlined and italics ...

 

but you have to do it manually:

 

Bold: put the following at the front of the first word you want to make bold [ b ] but remove the spaces between the brackets, at the end of the word/words put [ /b ] but again remove the spaces

 

Underline: as above but put [ u ] (don't forget to remove the spaces) and at the end of the word/words put [ /u ]

 

Italics: as above but put [ i ] (remove spaces) and at the end of the word/words put [ /i ]

 

[747]

crinklystarfish - 2012-10-03 5:28 PM

That quote is preceded by the exemption regarding fixed cylinders etc.

You have been speaking to an idiot.

Regarding the exemption, please define 'fixed cylinders'. Bottles held in place by straps do not seem to fit the description according to Shell. At least that is the impression I got while speaking to Shell Customer services.I have been considering an underslung gas tank anyway and this fiasco may push me into doing it. The previous owner fitted an underslung secondary fresh water tank complete with filling point at the rear of my van. Fitting a tank and utilising the still fitted (but redundant) filling point makes this an easy job. Problem solved. *-)

[lennyhb]

747 - 2012-10-03 7:18 PM

 

 

Regarding the exemption, please define 'fixed cylinders'. Bottles held in place by straps do not seem to fit the description according to Shell. At least that is the impression I got while speaking to Shell Customer services.

 

If you are that worried about it why not just replace the straps with steels ones that are bolted in - simple :D

[crinklystarfish]

747 - 2012-10-03 7:18 PM

crinklystarfish - 2012-10-03 5:28 PM

That quote is preceded by the exemption regarding fixed cylinders etc.

You have been speaking to an idiot.

Regarding the exemption, please define 'fixed cylinders'. Bottles held in place by straps do not seem to fit the description according to Shell. At least that is the impression I got while speaking to Shell Customer services.

Lamentably many who work in customer service departments are not destined for greatness. Please refer to earlier assertion that you have been speaking to an idiot. Refer them to the documentation to which you drew attention and tell them to read it really carefully, aloud, while tracing the words with their finger.

If it turns out there is indeed more documentation regarding means of fixing then perhaps there is more substance to this. If not, there isn't.

Nice demountable Your Honour. One day they will hopefully receive the recognition they deserve. Obviate the need for most A-Frame applications at a stroke. And you really can properly explore in the turd, sorry toad.

[Brambles]

lennyhb - 2012-10-03 8:04 PM

 

747 - 2012-10-03 7:18 PM

 

 

Regarding the exemption, please define 'fixed cylinders'. Bottles held in place by straps do not seem to fit the description according to Shell. At least that is the impression I got while speaking to Shell Customer services.

 

If you are that worried about it why not just replace the straps with steels ones that are bolted in - simple :D

 

Or better still, add and external fill point!

 

[Derek Uzzell]

The "Touring and Tenting" thread (that 747's 2nd posting provides a link to) relates to refilling a "Safefill" gas container. The latter's pressure-vessel (like the MTHA container marketed some years ago) is made of composite (plastic) materials and, in the Safefill's case, is sourced from the Composite Scandanavia company:

 

http://www.compositescandinavia.se/products

 

This bottle (like the MTHA one) was not originally purpose-designed for user-refilling. Although (unlike the MTHA canister) it now has an 80% cut-off valve, it's still a 'one-hole' bottle and (unlike 2-hole or 4-hole 'genuine' user-refillable bottles with dedicated filling inlets) refilling cannot be carried out while the Safefill bottle remains connected to a gas system. Consequently, although a Safefill LPG container can be refilled in-situ and has an 80% cut-off valve, it's difficult to see how it can meet the "connected to a fixed filling connector..." criterion.

 

Although Gaslow, Alugas, etc. canisters may all be described as "bottles", they can meet the three refilling 'permission' requirements. Also, when such containers are securely installed anf 'plumbed in' to a leisure-vehicle's gas system, they can't logically be described as "portable LPG cylinders".

 

I can't see why there should be doubt about the meaning of the following requirements:

 

• remain in-situ for refilling; and

• are fitted with a device to physically prevent filling beyond 80%; and

• are connected to a fixed filling connector which is not part of the vessel.

 

If a motorhome's gas system fails to meet all of those requirements and a LPG filling-station operator refuses to allow refilling, then tough luck.

[rupert123]

You lot do worry about nothing. As Brambles states, fit an external filling point and no one will bother to look. In five years of filling Gaslow bottles with an external filler no one has ever questioned me about filling it. Why would they, it just looks as if I am filling a tank up. If you open a locker and connect direct to a bottle inside sooner or later someone will question you, do the only sensible thing fit an external filler.

[pepe63xnotuse]

rupert123 - 2012-10-04 11:20 AM

 

You lot do worry about nothing....

 

I think if you read the thread correctly,you'll find that "us lot" weren't worried about it all... *-)

 

..it was only the OP(747),who had seemed to have got wound up over it.....

[747]

pepe63 - 2012-10-04 11:25 AM

 

rupert123 - 2012-10-04 11:20 AM

 

You lot do worry about nothing....

 

I think if you read the thread correctly,you'll find that "us lot" weren't worried about it all... *-)

 

..it was only the OP(747),who had seemed to have got wound up over it.....

 

I certainly was wound up at the time pepe but not any more. :D

 

The various replies have been interesting but are only opinions unless you are well versed in Elf and Safety or are a qualified legal expert in this field.

 

Another motorhomer contacted H & S who directed him to LPG UK who emailed the following statement. It contains more specific grounds why what we have been doing is falling foul of regulations. It will not stop me refilling bottles (nor anyone else) but at least you will all be aware of your position if refused and your liabilities for prosecution if you burn down the fuel station. *-) I suppose prison food is not as bad as it used to be. :D

 

UKLPG • the trade association for the LPG industry in the UK• P a g e 1 of 2

A Camden House •Warwick Road• Kenilworth• Warwickshire• CV8 1TH•

E mail@uklpg.org

User Information Sheet 026

August 2011

Replaces UKLPG Information Sheet 24 – June 2007

FILLING OF USER OWNED, PORTABLE REFILLABLE LPG

CYLINDERS AT AUTOGAS REFUELLING SITES

It is the advice from UKLPG that user owned, portable LPG cylinders should not be

refilled at self service autogas refuelling sites.

Containers which are attached to a vehicle for heating or cooking (on camper vans or

similar) present similar risks on filling to those for propulsion purposes and may be

permitted to be re-filled at autogas refuelling sites provided they:

? are not removed for refilling; and

? are secured in a suitable enclosure; and

? are fitted with an internal device to physically prevent filling beyond 80%; and

? are connected to a fixed filling connector which is not part of the container.

UK Health and Safety Regulations, made under the Health and Safety at Work Act,

including the:

? Dangerous Substances and Explosive Atmospheres Regulations

? Carriage of Dangerous Goods and Use of Transportable Pressure Equipment

Regulations

? Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations

? Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regulations

? Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order

impose significant duties on the site operator to ensure safety. Autogas refuelling sites

are places of work and their personnel have responsibility for safety to everyone on the

site, including the general public. They authorise the flow of gas from the dispenser and

they may be considered, in law, to be the filler.

Safe filling of LPG cylinders requires appropriate expertise and/or equipment. Staff at

self fill autogas refuelling sites cannot fulfil statutory obligations, as they have neither.

Were there to be any accident the site operator could be liable to prosecution.

This view has been confirmed in the Minutes of the HSE Petroleum Enforcement Liaison

Group meeting of 7th July 2005, which states “PLAs should consider issuing a prohibition

notice if their inspectors discover a site which allows members of the public to refill gas

cylinders”.

Should a site decide to fill user owned, portable LPG cylinders they need to provide

trained personnel to carry out the filling.

UKLPG • the trade association for the LPG industry in the UK• P a g e 2 of 2

A Camden House •Warwick Road• Kenilworth• Warwickshire• CV8 1TH•

E mail@uklpg.org

To ensure safe and satisfactory operations they must consider:

? legal implications under the Health and Safety at Work etc Act and supporting

legislation, notably the Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations,

the Carriage of Dangerous Goods and Use of Transportable Pressure

Equipment Regulations and the Dangerous Substances and Explosive

Atmospheres Regulations;

? their planning and local authority consents;

? their position with regard to weights and measures and consumer legislation;

? their Insurance position both with regard to on site activities and responsibilities

and subsequent use of the cylinder by the customer.

Their operating procedures should ensure that:

? any cylinder to be filled is confirmed to be p marked;

(Note: this is a requirement in the UK to show compliance with the Transportable

Pressure Equipment Directive.)

? the staff only fill customer owned cylinders which they are competent to fill and

for which instructions for filling are available;

(Note: Most cylinders in service in the UK are owned by LPG companies and can

only be filled by them.)

? smoking and naked lights are prohibited;

? any cylinder to be filled and the member of staff filling it are protected from

vehicle movement on the site;

? suitable personal protective equipment is worn by the staff carrying out the filling;

? there is a method of ensuring there is no static build up;

? before any fill the condition of the cylinder is checked against a written procedure

to confirm the cylinder is safe to fill and that the cylinder is “in test”;

(Note: Customer owned composite cylinders have to be re-qualified every 5

years, steel cylinders have to be re-qualified every 10 years.)

? ensure that the cylinder is held upright during the filling process;

? the cylinder can be confirmed not to be overfilled and there is a procedure on

making safe in the event of an overfill;

? the cylinder valve is checked on completion of filling and there is a procedure on

making can be safe in the event of the valve not sealing.

Note: A customer must not be allowed to leave site with an overfilled

or leaking cylinder

UKLPG Code of Practice 12 gives more details to the Regulations and procedures that

apply to cylinder filling operations.

 

[Tony Jones]

Of course, I wouldn't dream of suggesting that Shell's motives are anything other than a genuine concern for our safety, but couldn't there just be a teeny-weeny clue in this sentence, from their reply to the tent forum member?

 

"Autogas Limited is a joint venture company between Calor Gas and Shell Retail."

 

I don't suppose anyone can think of a company which just POSSIBLY might not want to see lots of motorhomers and caravanners switching to Gaslow??? :D

[Mel B]

Sorry 747, the info doesn't support your assertion that you can't do it any more than your other postings have ... otherwise why would it say:

 

? ensure that the cylinder is held upright during the filling process

 

If a petrol station refused to let you do it, that's their prerogative, otherwise don't worry.

[747]

Mel B - 2012-10-04 1:53 PM

 

Sorry 747, the info doesn't support your assertion that you can't do it any more than your other postings have ... otherwise why would it say:

 

? ensure that the cylinder is held upright during the filling process

 

If a petrol station refused to let you do it, that's their prerogative, otherwise don't worry.

 

As I previously said Mel, after the initial shock of being refused I quickly decided to air this on forums to bring this mess out into the open. It is a typical 21st Century Elf & Safety/Politically correct/Cover your A*se from Litigation situation. They are getting more common.

 

Consider that Shell employees would need special training and protective safety equipment (personal protection like gloves, safety goggles or glasses, flameproof clothing etc.) if they were to fill LPG on forecourts themselves. It says so in the H & S document. Joe Public can turn up in shorts and flipflops to fill his vehicle with Petrol, Diesel or LPG even though his presence on the premises puts the onus on his safety on Shell (I know this about H & S from working as a Site Manager on large construction jobs). It is a completely farcical situation and nobody can be certain of any outcome until there is a test case in the High Court because the waters are just too muddy to navigate.

 

On another forum, someone spoke to Shell customer services today and was told that this has come about because of people filling non-refillable bottles without the 80% cutoff, using adaptors bought on ebay. It was the Wildcamping forum and you probably already know this as you signed up as a Member not too long ago. OOPS, did you not want the Colonel Blimps on here to know that. :$

 

If you go back through some of the posts I have made on here Mel, you will soon discover I am not the worrying kind. Don't get mad, get even is closer to the mark. Depending on how many people contact and complain to Shell might clarify the situation for the future. Me...... I am fitting a bulk tank and getting my LPG from a different supplier (open 24/7) which does not involve squeezing my 8.2 metre van through a busy forecourt on to an awkwardly situated Autogas pump. :D