Shocking Ride! (Ducato 230)

[neillking]

I have a SWB Ducato based Hymer, the 3.5t to-04 230 version 80K. Both ride and cornering stability are pretty poor as is well known but I feel it has worsened over the last year or so. The UK offside rear in particular seems a bit 'wallowy' and when coming to a stop that final small rock seems more diagonal than balanced. I've done all the usual stuff with tyre presures etc and now suspect shock absorbers but am not really sure how to confirm that. All sorts of suggestions as to cause have been made but it would be good to be able to come up with the right diagnosis rather than spend money on pure guesswork. Rear shocks aren't too dear but trying to find out which are the right aftermarket replacements seems to be near impossible - even Bilstein seem rather vague about it.  On getting underneath to see if there are any visible part numbers (there aren't) I also notice that the bump stops are starting to break up so now wonder if they might be involved too - they're certainly long enough to come into play as anti-roll assistance. The offside one doesn't seem to be worse than the nearside - and the van looks level side to side when parked.

Any comments and, even better, real experience please? Also has anyone solved the replacement part number mystery - refining the two payload and various van, flatbed, minibus and 'camping' versions?  My Ducato-Hymer by the way is fitted with the 'camping-car suspension'.

Thanks - I hope!   Neill.

[rolandrat]

Is it built on a Fiat chassis or Alko?

[neillking]

Fiat

[Guest JudgeMental]

I only had a Ford based coachbuilt and that was OK but pretty soft handling. Our new Ducato based panel van was very hard ride when new, it has loosened up a bit and very car like..Great on roundabouts etc...

 

If everything else OK, maybe air ride suspension on the back would sort yours out?

[Dave Newell]

At 80k miles it is almost certainly due to failed/failing dampers. Rears are a simple enough job to replace but fronts are more involved. If fronts are being replaced consider upgrading to heavy duty springs as well and the strut top mountings would also benefit from replacement. All in not a cheap job but well worth it for the improvement in ride comfort and road holding.

 

D.

[neillking]

Thanks Dave. Front strut bearings already done - the symptoms were a relucutance to centre after a sharp turn, the nearside was shot but I did both. Any ideas on the shocks grade for the rears? Bilstein for example list one for up to 1400 Kg payload another for 1800Kg (Maxi presumably) and a third for up to 1800Kg 'Camping', I'm tempted to think the latter is the one for the 'camping-car suspension' but can't get them to do anything but offer the three and leave me to make the decision! Being half minded to uprate a little anyway maybe I should go for those. Also do you think the bump stops are important?  I've heard of people cutting them off but their height and the higher quality PU material makes me think they are also spring assisters?

[Guest Tracker]

Tyre pressures are the other cause of awful ride.

 

Has the van been serviced recently - in which case did someone over inflate the tyres for you?

 

Lots of previous threads on here about tyres and pressures to have a read through

[flicka]

neillking - 2011-11-11 7:12 PM

Thanks Dave. Front strut bearings already done - the symptoms were a relucutance to centre after a sharp turn, the nearside was shot but I did both. Any ideas on the shocks grade for the rears? Bilstein for example list one for up to 1400 Kg payload another for 1800Kg (Maxi presumably) and a third for up to 1800Kg 'Camping', I'm tempted to think the latter is the one for the 'camping-car suspension' but can't get them to do anything but offer the three and leave me to make the decision! Being half minded to uprate a little anyway maybe I should go for those. Also do you think the bump stops are important?  I've heard of people cutting them off but their height and the higher quality PU material makes me think they are also spring assisters?

Hi NeilI can not see that the 1400kg payload Shockers will be applicable for a 3.5tonne MGVW vehicle, as the rear axle capacity normally exceeds that of the front axle. (A check of your Weight Plate should confirm this)So even if both axles are the same that would only give a "paper" MGVW of 2800kg.(Although the 1800kg rear axle capacity still appears low (to me) for a 3.5tonne MGVW.)If correct, you are left with the choice of 1800kg standard or 1800kg "Camping". It may be prudent to ask Bilstein what is the difference between those.

[Dave Newell]

neillking - 2011-11-11 7:12 PM

Thanks Dave. Front strut bearings already done - the symptoms were a relucutance to centre after a sharp turn, the nearside was shot but I did both. Any ideas on the shocks grade for the rears? Bilstein for example list one for up to 1400 Kg payload another for 1800Kg (Maxi presumably) and a third for up to 1800Kg 'Camping', I'm tempted to think the latter is the one for the 'camping-car suspension' but can't get them to do anything but offer the three and leave me to make the decision! Being half minded to uprate a little anyway maybe I should go for those. Also do you think the bump stops are important?  I've heard of people cutting them off but their height and the higher quality PU material makes me think they are also spring assisters?

Personally I'd go for the "camper" spec rear dampers. As for the rear pu "bump stops" I'd replace them with aair bags, adjustable to suit your needs and much more forgiving ride quality.D.

[Brambles]

Rear Shocks will be the camping ones as you have the camping car package. Basically you need the heaviest duty ones you can get and gas filled ones at that.

Next the bump stops wil; be spring assistors so wil get shot over time and yours havbe now got shot so need replacing.

 

Lets hope your springs are still doing their job and not been excessively stressed by additional bouncing about as shockers are gone. Cross the bridge if you still have a problem after replacing shocks and assistors.

 

I might be able to find the Fiat part number for the shocks etc. I will post back if I find as most shock absorber suppliers will cross reference their numbers to originals.

 

 

[Brambles]

Agree with Dave - air bags/spring assistiors will improve ride a lot.

[rolandrat]

There used to be a shock absorber called Munro which was a normal shocker with a coil spring compensater on the outside, I used them on my estate cars when I towed caravans. The stability was brilliant, no roll or pitching, I dont know if they are still available but If i had a ride problem then I would consider this type of shocker.

[Derek Uzzell]

rolandrat - 2011-11-12 8:24 AM

 

There used to be a shock absorber called Munro which was a normal shocker with a coil spring compensater on the outside, I used them on my estate cars when I towed caravans. The stability was brilliant, no roll or pitching, I dont know if they are still available but If i had a ride problem then I would consider this type of shocker.

 

I think you are referring to "Monroe" and their website is

 

http://www.monroe.com/

[sandya]

I fitted Dunlop air suspension supplied by Marcle Leisure to my 2005 model Boxer based Pilote Aventura as bump stops were resting on leaf spring not exactly a cheap fix but worth every penny for improvement in stability also allowed an upgrade to 3700 kg

Sandy

[Derek Uzzell]

Neill

 

I don't think you've ever said exactly which Hymer model you own but (having trawled through some of your previous postings) I believe it's an over-cab design built around 1999/2000 with a 'chipped' 2.8idTD motor.

 

As Dave advises, after 80k miles (and 11 or so years) it should be expected that the vehicle's rear dampers will be shot. It might be wise to remove one of the existing dampers to confirm its dimensions contracted and extended as, if you get those figuress wrong when sourcing replacements, the units' design load-carrying capability will be largely academic.

[Rayjsj]

rolandrat - 2011-11-12 8:24 AM

 

There used to be a shock absorber called Munro which was a normal shocker with a coil spring compensater on the outside, I used them on my estate cars when I towed caravans. The stability was brilliant, no roll or pitching, I dont know if they are still available but If i had a ride problem then I would consider this type of shocker.

 

 

The name is 'Monroe' and they have a UK outlet, this is the webpage for the Fiat Ducato :

 

http://www.monroeshop.co.uk/info-monroe-what-fits-my-car?make=Fiat&model=Ducato&engine=2.3000&year=2011&search=Part+Number

 

can't see a 'Camping' the equivalent is probably 'Magnum'.

 

i fitted a set to the rear of my Toyota Rav4 which spent a lot of time on muddy fields and tracks, and towing a Trailer and a Caravan. Much better 'spec' than the standard 'Shocks'.

 

;-) Ray

PS, as a Cheaper alternative to 'Air suspension' you could try 'Mad' spring assistors , they replace the Bump stops (which are 'part of' the suspension on Sevels). and are about half the price. They 'Transformed' (for the better) the handling on my Talbot Autosleeper talisman, when the rear suspension got 'Tired'.

[neillking]

Thanks again for recent input. The Hymer body (CS544K) doesn't seem to be of much importance re the suspension since it's built on a full Fiat chassis. The Monroe pages for the right chassis & year, engine, rears, etc present a similar dilemma to the Bilstein - three Magnum choices eventually and no real info there as to what the differences are and how relevant they might be to my vehicle - V2506/7/9 are offered. Bilstein haven't been able to help with how to choose theirs, nor have a number of specialist retailers, I'll try Munroe but expect the same really - the expertise on motorhome chassis seems decidedly lacking and 'camping car suspension' throws them completely! Could be something of a guess in the end. I know the MAD springs well having used them myself on a Talbot with a sagging rear, and although very good at reducing the sag that's not quite what we're looking at here. I'm convinced now that shocks are the important first step, probably along with the bump stops, all I have to do is get to the bottom of these multiple choices so I can move on. I'll keep airides etc on the back burner for the time being.

[Robinhood]

If you want to find the OE (Fiat) part numbers fitted to your 'van, you may well be able to get details via the ePER system on the Fiat Forum site. (the version there covers vehicles up to 2005).

 

There is a good chance it will pull up the details for your particular vehicle (though beware the fact that there are sometimes options, and that some converters have made aftermarket changes).

 

Use:

 

http://www.fiatforum.com/ducato/

 

then select ePER from the menu near the top; Accept "Go" on the next screen; Click on "Spare Parts" and select "Fiat Commerciali".

 

If you then enter your VIN in the appropriate box, all following use is tailored to your specific vehicle. You will first get basic vehicle details in response, and then, by selecting "next", be able to "drill down" through parts breakdowns (by category) which should be relevant to your particular vehicle.

 

Just click on the required category, and then on down through each structure to get diagrams and part numbers.

 

If you can get the OE part number, you can then check aftermarket suppliers for an equivalent.

 

HTH

[Brian Kirby]

However, although not the same vintage, the standard MAM of our 2005 LWB Burstner Ducato based van was 3,400kg, and to get to 3,500kg a Goldschmied suspension upgrade was required. Hymer also used a similar upgrade for a number of their chassis. I wonder if the rear shocks and suspension are part of such an upgrade, and that is why the shocks are difficult to identify?

 

I'd definitely endorse the idea of air assisters: they work, and they are adjustable, which, IMO, is their advantage over other suspension aids. Since your PU assisters are shot, the extra cost won't be excessive, as the PU units have to be removed to fit the air assisters.

 

I also wonder if you would be wise to weigh your van in full touring trim, just to verify that the rear axle is within limits. The mileage is relatively high for a van, but it seems to have taken quite a battering, and overload is one possible contributory factor.

[neillking]

Thanks both. Followed the parts search and guess what - three different shocks have been used! It may be that I just need the latest mod but again not clear which one that is. I've asked Monroe for their advice might ask Grays of Warwick too. The van has seen some real work but isn't overloaded and yes we do weigh it. One of the reasons we went for it originally was its high payload which is quite adequate for us. The interior layout does tend to load the O/S rear slightly in preference to N/S and that's also the unit that takes the repetitive passenger in-out via the rear door & step so it has probably seen most work and certainly now seems weak - but not sagging when static. It was originally plated at the Hymer 3400Kg no mods have been made. The various catalogues and on-line offerings aren't too interested in MTPLM but go on year & chassis & engine mostly. 

[ronecc]

Your van will not sag at the rear unless your spring is weak. The shock absorber will not affect the ride height, it is there to do the job it's name suggests, ie absorb the shock of riding over bumps and so stop the spring bouncing up and down. If your van is bouncing it is obviously the shocker. If it rolling in corners, the shocker would help resist this to a degree, but could also be anti roll bar bushes or low tyre pressure. Conversely a harsh ride could be too high a tyre pressure. If your bump stop is breaking up, it sounds like your spring could have been bottoming and hitting it, so there again the shocker should have helped reduce that effect.

Normally, if the shock has burst you should see signs of oil running down the side, but not always. If the seal has stayed intact it will not leak, it could just be the internal valves. Try removing the shock and testing it manually. If you can push it up and down, it is shot, buy new. Be sure to buy two though, no good replacing just one at this age.

[Brambles]

Neill,

 

Using EPER if you click on three available shock absorbers they have bneen replaced with 1327748080.

Doing a search further this is the same as the ones used on the 2002/06 model 244. 11Q and 15Q fitted with reinforced camping car springs. As far as I can make out this shock absorber is stil specific to camping car varients. beginning to look like the aftermarket do not have a direct equivalent. However I have found afternarket suppliers who do have teh fiat code listed as an equivalent, but suspect it is just their offering is a close match will do the job type selection.

 

There is one more thing which might be the tripper upper here. It appears the reinforced dual leaf spring suspension may use a shock absorber with an extension spacer between the main body of the shocker and the mounting bush/eyelet. Presumambly to clear the springs or maybe to extend the length a bit as bottom mounting is slighly lower. I don't really know, but suggest you take a look at yours and see if teh botton mount is welded directly to the body of teh shocker, or has a welded in spacer. If it has a spacer is it needed for clearance or more likely to extend the length.

 

But, jumping to the chase, I have found some equivalent numbers for you which should make it much easier for you and these are a direct equivalents to the Fiat part 1327748080 camping car shocker.

 

Monroe V2507 and Sachs 280 989.

The Sachs definetly has the extension spacer. The other have not searched for a picture or specifications yet.

 

I hope this helps you. I also have a link below which will give you a guide to replacements. I am sorry I cannot give link to my info as it is a subscription tech info site. The info seems to match the website and suspect their data comes from same source I am using. I have copied my data below as text best I can.

 

http://www.autopiter.ru/PriceList.aspx?NumDetail=1327748080&IsAnalog=1&id=6754306

 

Fiat Ducato

Citroen Jumper (1.4 t.) 94-

Peugeot Boxer 94> 1000/1400kg

MONROE V2507

CAMPING MONROE V2507

FIAT DUCATO,PEUGEOT BOXER 94> 1000/1400KG

MONROE V2507

SACHS 280989

BOGE 32-H13-0

BOGE 32-H13-0

SACHS 280989

Shock absorber Supertouring / Automatic FIAT/LANCIA/ALFA ROMEO DUCATO 230

BOGE 32-H13-0 FIAT/LANCIA/ALFA ROMEO

SACHS 280989 Fiat Ducato 02 1.8 T 07

BOGE 32-H13-0 Citroen Jumper 1.9D,2.0,2.5D,2.8HDi 94-02//Fiat Ducato 94-02//Peugeot Boxer

German MONROE V2507 VAN-MAGNUM PEUG., FIAT

ITALY Alfa/Fiat/Lancia 1327748080 1351062080 ( edit - note this is the Tropical weather part number 2nd)

German MONROE V2507 VAN-MAGNUM

German MONROE V2507 VAN-MAGNUM HA PEUG., FIAT, CIT.

German MONROE V2507 VAN-MAGNUM HA PEUG., FIAT, CIT.

German SACHS 280989 SACHS 4930

German SACHS 280989 SACHS 5113

German SACHS 280989 SUPERTOURING HA CIT., FIAT

German SACHS 280989 SUPERTOURING HA CIT., FIAT 5424

German SACHS 280 989 SUPERTOURING HA CIT., FIAT,

German SACHS 280 989 SUPERTOURING HA CIT., FIAT, BJ.94-02

German Alfa/Fiat/Lancia 1327748080

Austria Alfa/Fiat/Lancia 1327748080

German Alfa/Fiat/Lancia 1327748080

Austria Alfa/Fiat/Lancia 1327748080 1351062080

 

So the above should help you assumning I have the Fiat part number correct. What gives me faith is in the list above you will see one entry actually says 'Camping'.

 

Over to you now!!!!!

Jon.

edit..ps. sorry my post is all very messy .

 

 

 

[Robinhood]

Doing a generic search on ePER for the year and type, rather than one by VIN number, (and checking for Camping-Car chassis) I'd agree that the p/number quoted by Jon is tagged with the latest substitution date, and also as a direct replacement for the others fitted previously.

 

It may be worth checking with a Fiat dealer, as this is the system that they use to research parts (and they are therefore more used to its interpretation). They also should be able to quote you for OE parts so you can compare prices.

[Brambles]

on this link http://www.zf.com/brands/content/en/boge/products_boge/catalog_boge/print_boge_1/catalogs-print-pdf-boge.html you can download the Boge catalogue as a pdf. It lists the Boge 32-H13-0 as the correct shock absorber.

The point is it shows some aftermarket catalogs do identify the camper model. Gosh, that was a long route I took to get there.

[Brian Kirby]

neillking - 2011-11-12 4:02 PM.......................... It was originally plated at the Hymer 3400Kg no mods have been made. The various catalogues and on-line offerings aren't too interested in MTPLM but go on year & chassis & engine mostly. 

 

Neill

 

Sorry, but your original post stated it to be "3.5t". You say, as above, originally plated "3400Kg no mods". That implies someone has carried out a "desk" re-plating to gain only 100Kg MAM, which is entirely possible - but just strikes me as a little odd. This could have been achieved by adding the front and rear axle maxima, but that would leave the rear axle highly prone to overload, especially if running near, or over, 3,400kg.

 

So, if no modification has been carried out, and the van has been re-plated to 3,500kg, is it possible the rear axle has been/is overloaded? I recognise that you have weighed the van, but have the axles been checked individually?

 

My reason for asking is that if there is a mod somewhere that has not been spotted, it may have involved uprated rear shocks. However, if there is no mod and the MAM has been uprated from 3,400kg to 3,500kg, rear axle overload may be playing a part in the characteristics you are experiencing. If that is true, then the new shocks will only give a part cure, and air assisters won't, of themselves, give any greater rear axle load carrying capacity. Hope this helps.