Spare wheel removal (wind Down)

[Earthmover]

Hi Again.

When I brought the van new, i was told that it came with a puncture repair kit and compressor, only when I got home I found out, it had a full size spare wheel underneath and all the kit that goes with it in a case under the passenger seat. To access the wheel you have to wind it down to the floor and pull it out, the problem is with 16" wheels fitted the the place where you have to insert brace?/tool to wind the wheel down looks to partly obscured. Although it may be ok when the van is jacked up. Anybody had the envisaged problem.

Regards Em.

[colin]

I'm guessing you have a LWB van, this has been discussed before, I don't recall the outcome, I do know on the XLWB van all the gear is slightly further back and access is fine.

[Derek Uzzell]

Evidently Em’s motorhome is an Elddis panel-van conversion, bought new quite recently (No details of the particular Elddis PVC model Em bought have been provided so far!)

 

Potential wheel-changing problems with Ducato X290 models with 16” wheels were mentioned here back in 2014

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/16-inch-wheels-fitted-on-Fiat-and-Peugeot-Van-conversions/36477/

 

As I understand it, the potential problem arises when a Ducato X290 PVC is on a ‘light’ chassis (where the exterior bodywork around the rear wheel-arch was originally designed for the standard 15”-diameter road-wheel) and is fitted with the 16”-diameter wheel option. As a Ducato X290 PVC on a ‘heavy’ (Maxi) chassis has 16” wheels as standard (and bodywork to match) there’s more clearance at the wheel-arch position.

 

Anyway, that’s the theory... ;-)

[Don636]

To follow on from Dereks point I have no problem accessing the spare wheel lowering point on my 6.36m Maxi Chassis PVC.

[ColinM50]

As a member of AA and Green Flag, IF I ever get a puncture and need to change a wheel it'll be their job to work out how to get the spare out. Made more difficult 'cos my wind down mechanism is a bit crap and comes down every so often so the wheel's now double secured with stainless steel cable ties that would need to be cut off. But hey ho, just part of life's rich tapestry or is it travesty :-S

[Earthmover]

Thankyou, Colin,Derek,ColinM50And Don636,

Fiat don't make it easy .or enhance their reputation with things such as this. Although, I was told it only came with a puncture repair kit!. I can't imagine how the dealership did not spot the spare wheel underneath, after going in to great detail, Re their Pre-delivery procedures. But I am happier with a spare wheel!.

Regards Em

[Derek Uzzell]

Earthmover - 2020-06-30 4:30 PM

 

...Fiat don't make it easy .or enhance their reputation...

 

Reputation ???

 

https://www.cartalk.com/radio/letter/our-favorite-fiat-jokes

 

http://www.jokes4us.com/miscellaneousjokes/corporatejokes/fiatjokes.html

[paul2]

Hi

 

I looked at the Elddis camper van range before buying my Sunliving. The cv20, cv40 & cv60 camper vans are all on the 5.99m chassis and they all came with a spare wheel and NOT one sales person told me they had a puncture repair kit.

 

I have removed the spare from my 6.36 Sunliving without any problems (fitted my Busbiker bike rack) and then refitted the spare wheel again without any problems. I just used Fiat kit my normal hand tools . OK i have not tried this with a flat rear tyre.

 

Paul

 

[Derek Uzzell]

But is your Sun Living V65SL built on a ‘light’ Ducato panel-van base with 16” wheels or on a ‘heavy’ Ducato base, as it’s the former combination that appears to be producing access/clearance problems?

 

(The norm is for Ducato X290 panel-vans to be provided as standard with a spare-wheel, though it’s quite possible that a motorhome converter’s catalogue might refer to the Fix&Go kit.)

 

 

[paul2]

Derek Uzzell - 2020-07-01 7:13 AM

 

But is your Sun Living V65SL built on a ‘light’ Ducato panel-van base with 16” wheels or on a ‘heavy’ Ducato base, as it’s the former combination that appears to be producing access/clearance problems?

 

 

My van is on the light chassis the 16" alloy wheels have a 5×118 PCD with M14 bolts,

 

Paul

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Thanks.

 

In principle, as your motorhome and Earthmover’s appear to have a similar specification, one might reasonably expect spare-wheel access/removal/replacement to be similarly easy or difficult.

 

Perhaps there’s a technique you’ve used (like jacking up the vehicle to allow the spare-wheel winder to be reached) that Earthmover can benefit from?

[paul2]

I just looked again put my bit of foam on the floor lay down and the winder in in front of you., with a flat tyre looks like you would need to jack up first to remove the spare.

 

May be it's all those years working as a vehicle tech!

 

Paul

[Derek Uzzell]

It’s perhaps understandable that, if a Ducato’s right rear wheel has a completely flat tyre, there will consequentially be insufficient vertical space under the spare wheel when it has been lowered for it to be pulled out from under the vehicle. In such circumstances, the Ducato would need to be jacked up first to allow the spare wheel to be pulled out, but that's not what Earthmover seems to be having trouble with...

 

For a recent Ducato panel-van spare-wheel removal is reasonably well covered in the Owner Handbook, with the initial part of the process as described in the attached image below. Earthmover’s problem (as I understand it) is that, with the right-hand rear wheel in place, he cannot easily access “Screw A” to insert “Extension B”. In his original posting he said

 

“...the problem is with 16" wheels fitted the the place where you have to insert brace?/tool to wind the wheel down looks to partly obscured.”

 

It may be that the weight that a particular panel-van conversion places on the vehicle’s rear springs (or even the springs that a converter might have chosen from the several available in the Fiat’s parts-list) may be a critical factor, so that in some cases Screw A is not obscured with the vehicle unjacked and in other cases it is. But that’s just theorising... I’m also a mite concerned after rereading Earthmover’s original posting whether this is actually a problem with his Elddis PVC, as the statement I’ve quoted above suggests that he had not attempted to access Screw A, but just believed that doing so might prove difficult.

 

(I bought a Hobby T-600FC coachbuilt motorhome in 2005. This was based on a FWD Ford Transit and had a spare-wheel as standard with a windlass lowering/raising mechanism similar to a Ducato PVC’s. The access point (similar to the Ducato’s Screw A) was on the side of the Hobby’s platform-cab chassis and accessed (in theory!) through the right rear wheel-arch and, due to the coachbuilt design, well in from the body’s side. The Hobby also had rear mud-flaps to get in the way. The Ford handbook explained that turning the windlass involved sticking the screwdriver-end of the wheel-brace into Screw A: no extension tools were supplied and using the advised method was, literally, impossible. I DIY-ed a metre-long extensoin from square-section steel bar that I could turn with a socket-spanner and, when I sold the Hobby I forgot to pass this on.)

[paul2]

Derek

 

The picture from the hand book you have posted is not a 6.36m van. If earthmover has a New Elddis panel van with 16" alloy wheels then it's on the 5.99m chassis Elddis do not use the 6.36m chassis at the moment all of they three panel van models are on the 5.99m meaning the picture you posted would be right for Earthmover's van and I can see the problem with removing the spare wheel.

 

Paul

[Derek Uzzell]

The image I provided was a screen shot from a Ducato Owner Handbook with a publication-date of July 2017.

 

The image was extracted from the Handbook’s “CHANGING A WHEEL” section and the guidance does not discriminate between body-length, wheelbase-length or ‘light’ or ‘heavy’ chassis.

 

In principle the owner of a Ducato panel-van, whether that vehicle be a ‘light’ or ‘heavy’ chassis variant with any body or wheelbase length, or with 15” or 16” wheels should be able to operate the spare-wheel lowering/raising mechanism simply by following the Handbook’s instructions. In practice, that may not be so (which, frankly, does not in the least surprise me).

[Earthmover]

Hi Derek,

Paul is correct the van is 5.999 long and you ae correct when saying , that I may have not tried to wind the wheel down . I originally looked in the Fiat manual, then looked under the Van but could not see where the winding gear was, it is that obscured due to the 16" rims and the larger tyres as opposed to 15" rims and tyres!. The diagram you have posted is not a true representation of the position as per my van, and merely typical. I can't see it being a weight issue as I have a 11cwt pay load allowance and there's nothing in the van at present. (confirmed by the weighbridge ticket). I think once the rear of the van is jacked up it will be ok to wind the wheel down. I posted the question because someone may know of a gismo to over come the issue.

Cheers Em.

[Derek Uzzell]

This YouTube video showing removing/replacing the spare-wheel of a recent Peugeot Boxer panel van

 

 

As far as I can make out, the vehicle is a non-Maxi version and (presumably) has standard 15” wheels with 215/70 R15C tyres. There seems to be plenty of room to the rear of the tyre to allow the extension tool and wheel-brace to be connected easily and directly to the windlass mechanism’s operating point.

 

Assuming that the Boxer on the YouTube video has the standard 15” wheels/tyres, there’s no doubt that fitting 16” wheels and 225/75 R16 tyres would reduce the ‘space’ to the rear of the tyre’s tread. It’s also the case that loading the Boxer would depress its rear springs, and the heavier the load the lower to the ground the windlass mechanism’s operating point would come and the more the tyre would potentially get in the way. So, a completely empty Boxer/Ducato ‘white van’ should have more space behind the right rear-wheel's tyre than any equivalent motorhome panel-van conversion (PVC). It should also be self-evident that jacking up the Boxer via the right-rear jacking-point would cause the wheel-arch to rise above the right rear wheel and the windlass mechanism’s operating point would become more exposed as a result..

 

I’d guess that the potential difficulty you've identified with your Elddis 5.99m-long motorhome will also apply to similar Ducato-‘light'-based PVCs from other converters when the 16”-wheel option is present. As motorcaravanners don’t habitually change wheels themselves, it may be that nobody else has noticed this (or perhaps, if it has been noticed, that it’s just accepted that jacking up the vehicle will be necessary to operate the windlass). I can’t find any similar complaints on-line, and - if preparatory jacking-up is needed - I can’t think of any simple ‘gismo’ way to avoid this.

[colin]

Had a closer look at the WildAx today, it's built on a 66plate LWB Relay.

On the photo the red arrow points to winding mech which is behind the wheel arch next to spare wheel similar to on our XLWB Ducato, the green arrows point to the only 'features' at back of wheel arch, a hole in chassis member and the rear shock mounting bolt.

[Derek Uzzell]

Which raises the question as to whether Earthmover has correctly identified where the extension tool needs to be inserted in order to operate the spare-wheel windlass mechanism.

 

There are really just two possibilities - either the right rear tyre of EM’s Elddis does obstruct the extension tool from connecting to the windlass, or EM hasn’t spotted the windlass’s connection point.

[slowdriver]

Spare wheel wind down and jacking point

 

I attach a photo of the wind-down mechanism on my 2020 Fiat Ducato Maxi PVC (6.4m).

It is towards the rear of the vehicle, well behind the rear wheel and wheel arch themselves. The winding mechanism is easily accessible from the side. This is not, as established above, where the Ducato manual says it is. Whether Fiat move it there prior to shipping to the convertor, or whether the convertor (La Strada in this instance) move it I do not know.

Neither do I know why the upload function has rotated the image.

[Earthmover]

Thanh you Slowdriver,

My vans rear end is different to your photo, ( 5.999 long ) and I think I would have spotted the winding gear if it was the same. My spare is up horizontal to the U/side of the vans floor and out of sight unless you kneel down. Is your spare wheel shown in your photo partly wound down, or as Is?.

I will do has Derek suggested have an other look and check I have been looking in the right place .

Cheers Em.

[slowdriver]

The photo shows the wheel position , "as is" - i.e. fully retracted.

 

[Derek Uzzell]

I’ve rotated (and tweaked) your earlier photo.

 

(I don’t know why it was 90 degrees out originally, but I’ve seen other similar examples here recently and I’m doubtful that it’s the forum’s attachment procedure that does it.)

 

It’s not unheard of for a motorhome converter to relocate a spare-wheel’s windlass mechanism when the mechanism’s ‘normal’ position would interfere with whatever stuff (eg. water tanks) that the converter wants to install beneath the vehicle’s chassis. Hobby did this with my 2005 coachbuilt motorhome and the result was that it was virtually impossible to lower/raise the spare-wheel.

 

Consequently, it may be unprofitable for Earthmover to seek feedback from owners of PVCs from different converters or with a different specification. He really needs to find owners of the same Elddis PVC as his and ask them if they have the access problem he enquired about in his original posting.

[colin]

Earthmover - 2020-07-16 11:00 PM

 

Thanh you Slowdriver,

My vans rear end is different to your photo, ( 5.999 long ) and I think I would have spotted the winding gear if it was the same. My spare is up horizontal to the U/side of the vans floor and out of sight unless you kneel down. Is your spare wheel shown in your photo partly wound down, or as Is?.

I will do has Derek suggested have an other look and check I have been looking in the right place .

Cheers Em.

 

THe wheel on slowdriver's (and mine on the thread Derek highlighted) can only be seen from kneeling low down. The same with the x290 LWB photo I've posted above, the winding mech on both is on the drivers (righthand) side.

[Gerry McG]

I've a 5.99m Globecar 600L revolution on a x290 light chassis ducato with 16" alloy wheels, and can easily access / have had no issues winding down the underslung windlass for the spare wheel.

 

One thing to be aware of is that if you have alloy wheels, the spare is on a steel rim.

I read the alloy bolts are longer than the alloy steel bolts and could protrude though the hub and foul the disk. This was not the case for me and I was able to correctly torque the wheel bolts without fouling the rotor.and could foul the rotor.. Worth confirming before you need to change in Ernest. I believe you can buy a set of shorter steel rim specific bolts? Might be worth considering?

 

Also, if you are to undersling your alloy wheel, you sling it with the outer face downward. Make sure you place some cardboard / old carpet / floor mats or a rug on the ground under the wheel as you will scratch the outer face of the alloy wheel on the ground as you hoist it up under the van.

 

I also wouldn't trust the supplied fiat tyre wrench to loosen the bolts. I bent mine the first time I needed to use it. I would recommend you get a proper breaker bar and deep socket and loosen the bolts In the comfort of your driveway and retorque correctly to make sure they can be undone when required.

 

(Corrected alloy to steel - Keithl)