Stays in Schengen area post Brexit

[Brian Kirby]

Obviously, this is only relevant to Brexit if it happens! :-) I would also add that this is not an invitation to discuss Brexit (yet again!), but a genuine attempt to understand what it might mean for our travel arrangements.

 

For this purpose I'm assuming that the date of Brexit with a transition period will be 31/12/2020, and without transition would be 29/3/2019. In view of the continuing uncertainty, it seems 29/3/2019 must be considered a possibility.

 

I have therefore been trying to work out whether our usual pattern of travel on the mainland will be possible post Brexit, and it seems it may not.

 

Our usual pattern of travel has been two trips, one spring and one autumn. To date the spring trips have varied up to 81 days, and the autumn trips up to 69 days.

 

If we Brexit, we shall cease to be EU members, and so no longer entitled to free movement, but we shall also lose the right, once in the Schengen area, to travel around it unhindered.

 

The UK has not signed up to Schengen, instead obtaining an "opt-out". Travel within Schengen (22 EU countries plus 4 non EU countries) for third countries (i.e. post Brexit UK) is limited to "90 days within any 180 day period".

 

Some third countries require Schengen visas to travel within the area; others do not, but must, nevertheless, respect the 90 days maximum stay within any 180 day period. It has not yet been decided whether UK will be in the visa group or the non-visa group, though it is apparently expected that it will be in the non-visa group.

 

For non visa visitors, the period of time spent in Schengen will be recorded when they enter and when they leave (not entirely sure, but apparently recorded electronically, but not stamped on the passport). If we need visas, the visa will run from the date of entry (which must be stated in the application) to a fixed future date a maximum of 90 days from the entry date.

 

The visa is personal, so one per person is required: current cost €60 per person. Alternative durations are offered, which I have not yet explored as the strings attaching are more complicated than the already less than clear 90 day variety. If anyone else wants to chase these down - feel free! :-D

 

The catch lies in the definition of "any 180 day period". The implication of this is that it extends from the date of entry for 180 days, within which a maximum of 90 days may be spent in Schengen, whether on one 90 day stay, or on 90 individual one day stays. This means that, assuming we do not require visas, but still being obliged to comply with the 90 days within 180 days limit, we would have to return to UK for 90 days from, at best, our date of return, before being entitled to re-enter.

 

So, taking one trip as an example, we left on 2 April, returning to UK on 22 June: 81 days in total. We should then have to remain in UK for 90 days, either from our return date, which would be 20 September, or worst case, 29 September, before the next 180 day period began.

 

There is a calculator available here: http://tinyurl.com/yaopfx98 with which I have played around looking for answers. It is not particularly user friendly (neither is the downloadable manual!) but it appears to confirm that in the above case the earliest we could re-enter the Schengen area would be 29 September - leaving far too little time for a decent autumn trip before the weather "cracks".

 

The implication of what I have read is that one's travel record will be reviewed by the border guards on arrival at the point of entry, and if that calculation results in a total stay duration (past + present trips) within the current 180 day period of more than 90 days, one would be refused entry, or possibly (but not stated) sent away to change one's return ticket date to an earlier, compliant, one. There is a (unstated) penalty for over-staying.

 

Because the UK has not been involved in this hitherto, although the guidance and explanations of the regulation are reasonably clear, they are not sufficiently clear to be certain exactly what is intended in all cases, particularly around the meaning of "any", in the reference to "any 180 day period".

 

So, does anyone know different, please, or can anyone point to a clear explanation of exactly what is meant by "within any 180 day period"? It looks as though it should be a floating period around one's visits, but the explanations, and the calculator, seem to point to it being fixed to commence at the date of entry of the preceding trip.

[colin]

Brian Kirby - 2018-12-09 6:39 PM

 

 

it appears to confirm that in the above case the earliest we could re-enter the Schengen area would be 29 September - leaving far too little time for a decent autumn trip before the weather "cracks".

 

 

 

We spent most of October in Germany, it was pretty hot most of the time.

[Guest pelmetman]

Brian Kirby - 2018-12-09 6:39 PM

 

Obviously, this is only relevant to Brexit if it happens! :-) I would also add that this is not an invitation to discuss Brexit (yet again!), but a genuine attempt to understand what it might mean for our travel arrangements.

 

For this purpose I'm assuming that the date of Brexit with a transition period will be 31/12/2020, and without transition would be 29/3/2019. In view of the continuing uncertainty, it seems 29/3/2019 must be considered a possibility.

 

I have therefore been trying to work out whether our usual pattern of travel on the mainland will be possible post Brexit, and it seems it may not.

 

Our usual pattern of travel has been two trips, one spring and one autumn. To date the spring trips have varied up to 81 days, and the autumn trips up to 69 days.

 

If we Brexit, we shall cease to be EU members, and so no longer entitled to free movement, but we shall also lose the right, once in the Schengen area, to travel around it unhindered.

 

The UK has not signed up to Schengen, instead obtaining an "opt-out". Travel within Schengen (22 EU countries plus 4 non EU countries) for third countries (i.e. post Brexit UK) is limited to "90 days within any 180 day period".

 

Some third countries require Schengen visas to travel within the area; others do not, but must, nevertheless, respect the 90 days maximum stay within any 180 day period. It has not yet been decided whether UK will be in the visa group or the non-visa group, though it is apparently expected that it will be in the non-visa group.

 

For non visa visitors, the period of time spent in Schengen will be recorded when they enter and when they leave (not entirely sure, but apparently recorded electronically, but not stamped on the passport). If we need visas, the visa will run from the date of entry (which must be stated in the application) to a fixed future date a maximum of 90 days from the entry date.

 

The visa is personal, so one per person is required: current cost €60 per person. Alternative durations are offered, which I have not yet explored as the strings attaching are more complicated than the already less than clear 90 day variety. If anyone else wants to chase these down - feel free! :-D

 

The catch lies in the definition of "any 180 day period". The implication of this is that it extends from the date of entry for 180 days, within which a maximum of 90 days may be spent in Schengen, whether on one 90 day stay, or on 90 individual one day stays. This means that, assuming we do not require visas, but still being obliged to comply with the 90 days within 180 days limit, we would have to return to UK for 90 days from, at best, our date of return, before being entitled to re-enter.

 

So, taking one trip as an example, we left on 2 April, returning to UK on 22 June: 81 days in total. We should then have to remain in UK for 90 days, either from our return date, which would be 20 September, or worst case, 29 September, before the next 180 day period began.

 

There is a calculator available here: http://tinyurl.com/yaopfx98 with which I have played around looking for answers. It is not particularly user friendly (neither is the downloadable manual!) but it appears to confirm that in the above case the earliest we could re-enter the Schengen area would be 29 September - leaving far too little time for a decent autumn trip before the weather "cracks".

 

The implication of what I have read is that one's travel record will be reviewed by the border guards on arrival at the point of entry, and if that calculation results in a total stay duration (past + present trips) within the current 180 day period of more than 90 days, one would be refused entry, or possibly (but not stated) sent away to change one's return ticket date to an earlier, compliant, one. There is a (unstated) penalty for over-staying.

 

Because the UK has not been involved in this hitherto, although the guidance and explanations of the regulation are reasonably clear, they are not sufficiently clear to be certain exactly what is intended in all cases, particularly around the meaning of "any", in the reference to "any 180 day period".

 

So, does anyone know different, please, or can anyone point to a clear explanation of exactly what is meant by "within any 180 day period"? It looks as though it should be a floating period around one's visits, but the explanations, and the calculator, seem to point to it being fixed to commence at the date of entry of the preceding trip.

 

Best you stay at home Brian ;-) .........and leave Europe to us folk who aren't scared of the EU :D .........

 

 

[PJay]

Interesting scenario

Guess that has kept Brian busy , in the dark evenings

How will affect UK persons who live say in France/Spain ? If they keep their Uk citizenship, i.e Passports, will they also have to leave after the time period?

 

Another scenario what about the above persons, pension payments? If they decide to give up UK passports, should our government stop paying the pension? After all they will become foreign citizens ?

 

 

Will be interesting to see, what really happens to the Uk citizens, living in the EU, when we we come out!! .

 

Holidays should not be a problem, as long as you don't outstay your time!

What ever happens, a lot will change in the near future , whether we stay in or out! We have upset BRUSSELS , to much , to ever be forgiven. SO best to come out, ASAP

 

PJay

[Adiebt]

All the uncertainty and even the more dire predictions is but a small price to pay to leave this dastardly union .

[Barryd999]

I see twenty years of Mail and Express brain washing still hasn't worn off. :(

 

As far as I know Brian its Max 90 days in 180. No exceptions. Ive only really considered it in terms of our trips which are generally four to six months but no longer after Brexit assuming it goes ahead of course which is looking increasingly unlikely.

[snowie]

As an interim measure Brian, I would restructure my year to two or possibly three 60 day trips over a 365 day period. I think it would be more flexible, and maybe three different areas would be a good change?

I appreciate that the extra channel crossing would be a nuisance, but what’s a couple of hundred quid?

Maybe not how we’d prefer to spend it, but worth it I think.

Snowie

[TeamRienza]

I suspect the best plan is either to book for an early spring trip with the hope that things will clarify to something which allows you to continue your routine, or simply book a 90 day trip at a time of your choosing and make that your ‘European’ trip for 2019 until the dust settles and you can plan properly for 2020.

Whatever the date of exit both of these scenarios presumably would work in 2019 and possibly beyond.

 

Davy

[TheFrenchConnection]

Of course you could always be like Pelmetman and stick your head firmly in the sand. However wiser councils might consider that there will certainly be changes when UK citizens are no longer EU citizens. I have a Carte de Séjour which specifically states that I have the right to 'sejour permenant' in France but am still concerned about my ability to move around the Shengen zone post-Brexit - as are all of use who are actually concerned about legality.

As I said in a post in a previous thread waving a blue passport won't work in an age of ANPR cameras and electronic passport checks.

Unfortunately no one has the faintest idea of what will actually happen - especially Brexiteers

 

Being out of the country on 29 March doesn't seem like a good idea though - we plan to be safely home in France a couple of weeks beforehand despite our French registration camouflage.

[spirou]

I'm still stuck on 80+ days trip... :-D haven't been anywhere for more than 20 days at a time *-)

 

 

[Geeco]

Brian, can I offer you a solution. Spend one period in a schengen country and the other in Croatia. The coast of Croatia as I am sure you know is beautiful and parking up for a period in somewhere like the area from Rovinj and further south would be very pleasant. The food is good and it is price competitive with say the north of Italy.

We travel to Europe most years for around 6 weeks each trip. I suspect you will be treated like the rest of us foreigners. The wait at the border crossing will be no worse that the non EU line at LHR.

Cheers, Gary.

 

[BKen1]

Easy solution ..Another referendum vote stay ..problem solved .

[Derek Uzzell]

I’m going to ask Daniel Attwood to give me carte blanche to allow me - if I spot any posting with the word “Brexit” in it - to move the complete thread to the Chatterbox forum.

 

(Brian - you should be ashamed of yourself ;-) ;-) ;-) )

[StuartO]

I've also aimed at two longish tripsabroad in Spring and Autumn and in recent years I've abandonned booking return ferry crossings in favour of booking a return trip on line when we have decided on our return date. I've decided not to book anything at all for 2019 at this stage, to keep my options open for touring on the continent as ususal or staying in UK if necessary.

 

It will become clearer in due course whether and how strictly France applies any time limits on stays in the Schengen Area and if they do, then I'll try to comply. The risk will presumably be getting baned from re-entry if you get picked up as having over-stayed as you leave France to re-enter UK - but is it going to be practical or worthwhile for French border control people in Calais to check everyone for what will only ever be retrospective checks on overstaying as they leave France, when there will be such limited value for them in doing so?

 

I'm certainly not starting to panic about this just yet although I will admit that I wish I could apply for an Irish Passport, which seems to offer a way of having the best of both worlds.

[Guest pelmetman]

TheFrenchConnection - 2018-12-09 9:34 PM

 

Of course you could always be like Pelmetman and stick your head firmly in the sand. However wiser councils might consider that there will certainly be changes when UK citizens are no longer EU citizens. I have a Carte de Séjour which specifically states that I have the right to 'sejour permenant' in France but am still concerned about my ability to move around the Shengen zone post-Brexit - as are all of use who are actually concerned about legality.

As I said in a post in a previous thread waving a blue passport won't work in an age of ANPR cameras and electronic passport checks.

Unfortunately no one has the faintest idea of what will actually happen - especially Brexiteers

 

Being out of the country on 29 March doesn't seem like a good idea though - we plan to be safely home in France a couple of weeks beforehand despite our French registration camouflage.

 

Once you cross the ditch how often do you have your passport checked? ;-) ..........and how do they know I've not been in Spain were my padron allows me to stay for more than 6 months? :-| ........

 

 

 

 

[Guest pelmetman]

Geeco - 2018-12-10 1:26 AM

 

Brian, can I offer you a solution. Spend one period in a schengen country and the other in Croatia. The coast of Croatia as I am sure you know is beautiful and parking up for a period in somewhere like the area from Rovinj and further south would be very pleasant. The food is good and it is price competitive with say the north of Italy.

We travel to Europe most years for around 6 weeks each trip. I suspect you will be treated like the rest of us foreigners. The wait at the border crossing will be no worse that the non EU line at LHR.

Cheers, Gary.

 

Don't tell the Remoaner's that Gary ;-) ..........

 

They're want to be hunted down and deported :D .........

 

 

[starvin marvin]

As you say, it ain’t done yet. Don’t dispair it not over till the fat lady sings, and she hasn’t even got her knickers on yet.

 

[colin]

pelmetman - 2018-12-10 9:24 AM

 

TheFrenchConnection - 2018-12-09 9:34 PM

 

Of course you could always be like Pelmetman and stick your head firmly in the sand. However wiser councils might consider that there will certainly be changes when UK citizens are no longer EU citizens. I have a Carte de Séjour which specifically states that I have the right to 'sejour permenant' in France but am still concerned about my ability to move around the Shengen zone post-Brexit - as are all of use who are actually concerned about legality.

As I said in a post in a previous thread waving a blue passport won't work in an age of ANPR cameras and electronic passport checks.

Unfortunately no one has the faintest idea of what will actually happen - especially Brexiteers

 

Being out of the country on 29 March doesn't seem like a good idea though - we plan to be safely home in France a couple of weeks beforehand despite our French registration camouflage.

 

Once you cross the ditch how often do you have your passport checked? ;-) ..........and how do they know I've not been in Spain were my padron allows me to stay for more than 6 months? :-| ........

 

 

 

 

 

Your Padron is only valid for 90 days.

[colin]

Well looking into it, it seems your 'ace up the sleeve' is from the wrong pack. You better start planning on spending more time in the UK.

[aandy]

Brian Kirby - 2018-12-09 6:39 PM

 

 

So, does anyone know different, please, or can anyone point to a clear explanation of exactly what is meant by "within any 180 day period"? It looks as though it should be a floating period around one's visits, but the explanations, and the calculator, seem to point to it being fixed to commence at the date of entry of the preceding trip.

 

The key point is, as you have said, how the relevant regulation defines the 180 day period. Many years ago I worked for the Department of Transport, where I was involved with EU legislation on HGV drivers hours. Various limits were expressed in terms of 'x hours rest must be taken in any period of y hours', and 'driving limited to x hours in any period of y'. While the intention was clearly that the rest period should be taken between two periods of work, and that once the maximum driving period had been reached the driver's working day would end, the courts interpreted things differently.

 

I cannot recall the precise details but, in effect, they ruled that it was permissible to 'back to back' the driving or rest periods, effectively allowing the individual to nominate 'y' in a way that suited him. The effect of those rulings, if applied to this scenario, would be to allow you to stay for 180 days by deeming the first 90 as days 91 to 180 of the first 180 day period and the second as days 1 to 89 of the next. The problem is, of course, that some brave (and wealthy) soul would have to do go through the courts to get a determination.

[Cattwg]

The timing and length of our Continental trips are very similar to yours Brian. Other than the possibility of requiring visas I’d given very little thought as to the effect of Brexit on our travel arrangements.

If we do leave the EU then, when ‘the dust has settled’ perhaps the MMM Team, or a question to one of the ‘Clubs’ could provide a definitive answer?

John :-D

[aandy]

Barryd999 - 2018-12-09 8:49 PM

 

I see twenty years of Mail and Express brain washing still hasn't worn off. :(

 

 

I really didn't want to get drawn into a pointless squabble about the merits or otherwise of leaving, but cannot let this pass. I voted out, and would do so again, but I understand there are valid arguments on both sides and I respect the (sensibly expressed) views of those who disagree. However, to assert that anyone who does not subscribe to a particular view has been brainwashed - the clear implication being that they are incapable of thinking for themselves - is arrogant in the extreme and perfectly illustrates the difference between a remainer and a remoaner. The simple fact is that nobody knows how things will pan out when we leave and the best anyone can hope for is an educated guess.

[Guest pelmetman]

colin - 2018-12-10 9:41 AM

 

pelmetman - 2018-12-10 9:24 AM

 

TheFrenchConnection - 2018-12-09 9:34 PM

 

Of course you could always be like Pelmetman and stick your head firmly in the sand. However wiser councils might consider that there will certainly be changes when UK citizens are no longer EU citizens. I have a Carte de Séjour which specifically states that I have the right to 'sejour permenant' in France but am still concerned about my ability to move around the Shengen zone post-Brexit - as are all of use who are actually concerned about legality.

As I said in a post in a previous thread waving a blue passport won't work in an age of ANPR cameras and electronic passport checks.

Unfortunately no one has the faintest idea of what will actually happen - especially Brexiteers

 

Being out of the country on 29 March doesn't seem like a good idea though - we plan to be safely home in France a couple of weeks beforehand despite our French registration camouflage.

 

Once you cross the ditch how often do you have your passport checked? ;-) ..........and how do they know I've not been in Spain were my padron allows me to stay for more than 6 months? :-| ........

 

 

 

 

 

Your Padron is only valid for 90 days.

 

Correct ;-) ........But the benefits aren't :D .......

 

https://www.calp.es/en/content/sign-padron-or-renew-your-entry

 

"Calp, the town you have chose to live in, ***needs you***. Sign on to the Padron! or renew your entry.

 

 

WHAT IS THE PADRON?

It’s the administrative record of all residents of the town. Each person that lives in Spain is obliged to sign on to the padron in the town where they habitually live.

 

It is complying with a legal obligation and allows you to exercise and demand your rights.

The larger the numbers on the padron, the greater the economic help the Town Hall receives to better provide local services. With a lower number of people on the padron, there is a risk to the provision and quality of such services.

 

RENEW YOUR ENTRY

As a foreigner and inhabitant of Calp you need to know that you must renew your entry periodically, normally every 2 to 5 years depending on your residential status. You just need to bring your passport and NIE to renew."

 

It's nice to be wanted :D ........

[colin]

pelmetman - 2018-12-10 11:11 AM

 

colin - 2018-12-10 9:41 AM

 

pelmetman - 2018-12-10 9:24 AM

 

TheFrenchConnection - 2018-12-09 9:34 PM

 

Of course you could always be like Pelmetman and stick your head firmly in the sand. However wiser councils might consider that there will certainly be changes when UK citizens are no longer EU citizens. I have a Carte de Séjour which specifically states that I have the right to 'sejour permenant' in France but am still concerned about my ability to move around the Shengen zone post-Brexit - as are all of use who are actually concerned about legality.

As I said in a post in a previous thread waving a blue passport won't work in an age of ANPR cameras and electronic passport checks.

Unfortunately no one has the faintest idea of what will actually happen - especially Brexiteers

 

Being out of the country on 29 March doesn't seem like a good idea though - we plan to be safely home in France a couple of weeks beforehand despite our French registration camouflage.

 

Once you cross the ditch how often do you have your passport checked? ;-) ..........and how do they know I've not been in Spain were my padron allows me to stay for more than 6 months? :-| ........

 

 

 

 

 

Your Padron is only valid for 90 days.

 

Correct ;-) ........But the benefits aren't :D .......

 

https://www.calp.es/en/content/sign-padron-or-renew-your-entry

 

"Calp, the town you have chose to live in, ***needs you***. Sign on to the Padron! or renew your entry.

 

 

WHAT IS THE PADRON?

It’s the administrative record of all residents of the town. Each person that lives in Spain is obliged to sign on to the padron in the town where they habitually live.

 

It is complying with a legal obligation and allows you to exercise and demand your rights.

The larger the numbers on the padron, the greater the economic help the Town Hall receives to better provide local services. With a lower number of people on the padron, there is a risk to the provision and quality of such services.

 

RENEW YOUR ENTRY

As a foreigner and inhabitant of Calp you need to know that you must renew your entry periodically, normally every 2 to 5 years depending on your residential status. You just need to bring your passport and NIE to renew."

 

It's nice to be wanted :D ........

 

 

Still doesn't allow you to stay post Brexit, for that you will need to look into getting a green card.

[colin]

I'm not sure how well integrated Schengen controls are, I seem to recall Gary staying overtime? but I've got an image of Dave waving his padron at French customs saying "But I've got this!"