Taxation Idiocy

[bobalobs]

In recent months many have been upset by the increase of vehicle taxation for motorhomes over £40000 in value. I now read in January MMM that the £70000+ Dethleffs Globeline is not subject to the VED increase as it is a rearwheel drive Mercedes . Why are they exempt? If I buy a rearwheel drive PVC will that be exempt? There are a few rearwheel drive vans other than Mercedes and are they exempt?

[Derek Uzzell]

You'd need to ask Peter Vaughan (author of the MMM article) to explain the statement you've referred to.

 

I believe the fact that the Dethleffs Globeline T 6613 EB that was reviewed is rear-wheel drive and/or Mercedes-based Is irrelevant and, if its motor meets the Euro 6d standard as the review states and there is a CO2 value on the motorhome's final-stage Certificate of Conformity (CoC), I can't see why it should avoid the taxation rules that the DVLA has recently advertised.

[Keithl]

I read that article as well and was also puzzled by his comment, specifically about it being Mercedes and rear wheel drive.

 

The only reasoning I could think of was that its COC did not carry a CO2 figure and hence it had been registered in the old PHGV class at £165 per year.

 

Keith.

[stevec176]

Surely if it's just a case that if there is no CO2 figure on the COC then you pay the lower figure then none of the companies will put a CO2 figure on their COC or am I being naive?

[colin]

I suspect that the rear wheel drive version being sold at the moment isn't euro6d and therefore at the moment isn't subject to the newer VED.

[colin]

Looking at the sprinter info online, they appear to all be euro6b.

[bobalobs]

I am glad I am not the only one confused. The article suggests the tax advantage may not apply in all of Europe.

Are we saying that new vans that are not fitted with the latest technology (ie 6d ) are exempt? The " second opinion" quote by Rachel Stothert talks of the Mercedes having the latest tech.

I am just as confused but lets hope next months MMM clarifies the position.

[Derek Uzzell]

colin - 2019-12-22 12:52 PM

 

Looking at the sprinter info online, they appear to all be euro6b.

 

On Page 106 of the magazine, in the FACTS AND FIGURES section of the article, the Globeline's engine is described as being "2.1-litre, Euro 6d, 143bhp".

 

There is the possibility that, because the test-vehicle had a 4100kg gross weight, it was believed that it should not be placed in a Graduated Emissions VED category. This would have been so until fairly recently, but the DVLA has revised the Graduated Emissions categories so that a vehicle's gross weight is now ignored.

 

It's also the case that MMM staff are not infallible. ;-) ;-)

[Deneb]

Leaving the CO2 figure off of the CoCs for Euro 6d vehicles is not an option, hence the tax "increase". There has been no "new" tax. Put simply, the legal requirement for a CO2 figure to be stated on the CoC for vehicles subject to the newest worldwide harmonised light vehicle testing procedure (WLTP) means that they are taxed according to the existing tax rates for Diesel Cars or Petrol Cars, which also carry an additional "luxury car tax" element according to purchase price of the vehicle. Any motorhome which might previously have had a CO2 figure stated would also have been subject to the same tax rates, but due to a previous exemption for multi-stage built vehicles, the final stage converter could issue a CoC without that figure being stated. That is no longer allowed.

 

I can't comment on the article, but I suspect as has already been said, that the base vehicle for that particular conversion is an older type (non WLTP) vehicle. It is also of course correct that taxation of new vehicles will differ across Europe, because each country has their own legislation in that respect. In France for instance, there can be an additional penalty of up to 10,000 euros to be paid in addition to the purchase price for the highest polluting vehicles, although I'm told that motorhomes may currently be exempt from that tax. Any annual taxation charges will also differ from the UK rates, as they will be subject to French legislation. The same will apply for vehicles registered in other countries, so it is really stating the obvious that taxation may differ across Europe!

 

I also understand that there is a time limited derogation under which new vehicles not conforming to the WLTP standard can continue to be newly registered in European countries.

[weldted]

As far as I am aware Motorhomes over 3500kg do not come under this rule yet!!

[colin]

weldted - 2019-12-22 6:49 PM

 

As far as I am aware Motorhomes over 3500kg do not come under this rule yet!!

 

The van in question as tested is under 3.5t. https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/motorhomes/buyers-guide/motorhomes/details/motorhome-review-dethleffs-globeline-t-6613-eb-motorhome/143099

 

Looking at the specs on p23 of the Sprinter Brochure it says euro6b, link is near bottom of this page. https://www.mercedes-benz.co.uk/vans/en/sprinter-chassis

[everhopeful]

Can someone explain in very simple terms why the latest and cleanest Euro6d vehicles attracts more taxation than older and dirtier ones. Surely having paid more for more technology to be super clean, that should be rewarded with less taxation.

Am I missing something or is the system upside down?

[Billggski]

It's the same logic that taxes mohos over 3500kg less than lighter ones.

[Deneb]

everhopeful - 2019-12-22 7:36 PM

 

Can someone explain in very simple terms why the latest and cleanest Euro6d vehicles attracts more taxation than older and dirtier ones. Surely having paid more for more technology to be super clean, that should be rewarded with less taxation.

Am I missing something or is the system upside down?

 

They are taxed at lower rates than previous generation vehicles that were also subject to emissions related taxation.

 

But due to a loophole in the previous legislation motorhomes specifically were able to be registered without a final stage CO2 figure and therefore could not be subjected to the current (since 2001) emissions related tax bands.

 

They were therefore taxed according to older tax bands that were only meant to apply to vehicles registered before 2001, because the legal loophole prevented them being taxed in accordance with other similar vehicles.

 

Rather than now being heavily penalised (when in fact they are now being treated no differently to other similar vehicles) you need to realise that motorhomes had been specifically subject to favourable treatment in relation to other similar vehicles prior to the introduction of WLTP, because of the previous loophole in the legislation.

 

Having now fallen into line with other vehicles, they are also subject to the additional luxury car tax according to purchase price.

 

Despite having what you refer to as "super clean" engines, their CO2 output is still at the relatively high end of the scale and in fact almost double the latest European target for average vehicle emissions. That is likely to always be the nature of relatively heavy motor cars with larger than average IC engines.

 

Although I also think it would be wonderful if the government decided to exempt motorhomes from compatible tax treatment with other similar vehicles, I can't see that in the current climate with ever more stringent environmental targets that there will be many people in the general population who would agree that what most consider to be a non-essential recreational vehicle should be given advantageous treatment in comparison to similar vehicles used for delivering goods, transporting tradesmen's tools and equipment, or other essential services.

 

[everhopeful]

Thanks Deneb. A very good explanation.

[Derek Uzzell]

colin - 2019-12-22 7:22 PM

 

weldted - 2019-12-22 6:49 PM

 

As far as I am aware Motorhomes over 3500kg do not come under this rule yet!!

 

The van in question as tested is under 3.5t. https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/motorhomes/buyers-guide/motorhomes/details/motorhome-review-dethleffs-globeline-t-6613-eb-motorhome/143099

 

Looking at the specs on p23 of the Sprinter Brochure it says euro6b, link is near bottom of this page. https://www.mercedes-benz.co.uk/vans/en/sprinter-chassis

 

As I said in my posting of 22 December 2019 1:43 PM above, the particular Globeline model reviewed by Peter Vaughan was stated as having a 4100kg gross weight, and not the standard 3499kg. There’s little doubt that the 4100kg datum was right, as the test-vehicle’s payload was given as ”446kg standard spec, 98kg of options fitted, 949kg as tested” and that arithmetical calculation is correct.

 

How VED would apply to motorhomes in future was discussed here in some depth last August, and the relevance (or not) of a 3500kg gross weight threshold was referred to in the final four postings of that thread’s 3rd page.

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Huge-tax-increase-for-new-motorhomes-/52889/61/

 

For forum-members who do not read MMM magazine, Peter Vaughan’s article included the following

 

You also might not have expected Dethleffs to have opted for the rear-wheel drive Sprinter, when several rivals have gone for the front-drive version. But it seems that the company has benefited here, in the UK at least, as the rear-wheel drive Merc is not subject to the new higher rates of VED (road tax) applied to other motorhomes...

 

I’m not omniscient and I’m certain Peter Vaughan is not either - so the question to be asked is “How did Peter come by that information?” And the likelihood is that he was told this by the supplier of the test vehicle, which his article says was Travelworld.

 

Peter’s statement is ambiguous to say the least and I’m unconvinced that it is correct, but the accuracy or otherwise of his statement won’t be established by guesswork.

 

Peter Vaughan’s email address is

 

peterv@warnersgroup.co.uk

 

and Travelworld’s contact details are

 

enquiries@motorhomes.co.uk

 

Tel: 01785 878787

 

Regarding motorhomes being treated more favourably than cars in future at the UK registration stage, the government response to this recent-ish petition suggests that this is unlikely.

 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/268246

 

 

[Robinhood]

My suspicion is that there has been some "over-interpretation" here.

 

Colin has already posted above that the Sprinter is not yet Euro6d compliant, the information on MB's UK website implies this is correct, and perusal of the web throws up several references to the fact that Euro6d engines for the Sprinter are not expected in the UK until June 2020.

 

Given this is true, then the 'van in question will not currently be subject to the new VED regime.

 

(It is apparent that the same Dethleffs model being advertised for sale in Germany does have the Euro6d engine, but it would appear that RHD Sprinters destined for the UK market are not yet so equipped - either because the chassis is built without it, as above, or because the converter is using "run-out" stock. It is also interesting to note that all Hymer Sprinter based models, with the exception of the MLT, are specifically not equipped with Euro6d engines in either of the current English or German listings).

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

This June 2019 German webpage may be relevant to the MMM article

 

https://www.ace.de/nc/reisen/reiseberichte/reiseberichte-artikel/artikel/abgasstufe-euro-6d-temp-fuer-reisemobile/

 

and, for convenience, I have copied the webpage’s GOOGLE-translated text below

 

Camping:

 

Emission level Euro 6d-TEMP for motorhomes

 

From September, the Euro 6d-TEMP emissions standard also applies to motorhomes - but not to every one. And what's the difference between Euro 6 and Euro VI?

 

Not only do they drive a little sluggishly on the road, they are also a little slower when it comes to exhaust emissions: vans and therefore motorhome base vehicles are subject to the same emissions levels as cars, but with a delay. See Euro 6d-TEMP: Introduced last autumn for cars, it will apply to light commercial vehicles from September 1 this year, including motorhomes. With this step the measurement procedure changes. The current WLTP cycle is considerably more demanding than the previous NEDC cycle. That means higher and more realistic consumption figures and thus also higher CO2 emissions. They are directly related to consumption.

 

Clean on the go thanks to Adblue

 

From Euro 6d-TEMP, the nitrogen oxide limit values ??can only be achieved with SCR technology. Here artificial urea - trade name Adblue - is injected into the exhaust gas flow. It breaks down harmful nitrogen oxides into harmless components in a downstream catalytic converter. Almost all van manufacturers have already used SCR technology. The most important basic motorhome vehicle, the Fiat Ducato, was rejected. This will change from autumn, with the result of a slightly higher empty weight and a noticeably higher price, rumored to be a surcharge of 1000 euros.

 

A transition period still allows Euro 6c vehicles

 

One question shows: whether Fiat, Citroën and Peugeot, whether Ford, Iveco, Renault or VW, all switch to Euro 6d-TEMP. The big exception is Mercedes with the Sprinter and the commercial vehicle variants of the Vito. Mercedes officially refuses to testify, but industry experts and van salesmen know: These models continue to run according to the Euro 6c emissions standard. That is still possible for a year, because the introduction of Euro 6d-TEMP refers only to new type approvals. The Sprinter, of all people, will be represented at the caravan salon this year, but not the best possible emissions standard.

 

Special regulations also apply to 6b vehicles that have not yet been registered

 

But even those who now buy a motorhome with Euro 6b do not look into the tube. Jost Krüger, head of the Technology and Environment unit of the CIVD manufacturers association: “EU law provides for an 18-month transition period for motorhomes with multi-stage approval so that motorhomes that have already been produced but not yet approved can still be put on the market for a certain time . “That makes sense, because a chassis or panel van does not become a built, sold and approved motorhome overnight.

 

Motorhome manufacturers are not yet obliged to state consumption values

 

Something else is new: for the first time, there will be consumption data for motorhomes that are not approved as cars by VW California. There, consumption and therefore CO2 information has long been mandatory. Manufacturers of basic vehicles have to provide the builders with calculation models that incorporate both the front surface of the entire vehicle and the rolling resistance and weight. From this, consumption values ??can be determined. Motorhome manufacturers are not obliged to enter this data in their catalogs. However, it will be a matter of time before this changes under pressure from consumers.

 

Euro 6 or Euro VI - From Arabs and Romans

 

Confusing: Light and heavy commercial vehicles are subject to different emissions levels, but they have identical names. The distinction: Light commercial vehicles are based on car legislation and have Arabic numerals, currently Euro 6. Roman numerals apply to heavy commercial vehicles, currently Euro VI. In terms of content, the exhaust gas levels have nothing to do with each other: passenger cars and light commercial vehicles are measured on the roller test bench, and engines run on exhaust gas test benches for heavy commercial vehicles. Limit values ??and real emissions are not comparable. Where is the limit The roller test bench applies up to a reference mass of 2380 kg, and the engine test from 2840 kg. In between, manufacturers can choose the method. Reference mass means: empty weight of the ready-to-drive car plus 75 kilos for the driver and 90 percent full fuel tank. The weight of the individual model applies. Chassis and panel vans are weighed without assembly and disassembly. As a rule, they weigh around two tons, apart from very large calibers. Therefore, almost all motorhomes fall under the measurements on the roller test bench and under the exhaust gas regulations with Arabic numerals.

[Will86]

The road tax increase is another con to extract money nothing else. I recently considered another MH and read that the road tax has been disguised in a new lower price, presumably if one aims at negotiating this will include part of the road tax and VAT, I don't work like this and will not be buying.

 

https://www.bilbos.com/new-used-stock/

 

Like the TV series Dragons Den if all potential M/H investors voted 'out' the original tax desiders may make a better judgement

 

 

[Billggski]

I think you'll find that taxes are a way of raising money, that's the point of them.

The problem is what that money is spent on.

[Derek Uzzell]

Robinhood - 2019-12-23 11:21 AM

 

My suspicion is that there has been some "over-interpretation" here.

 

Colin has already posted above that the Sprinter is not yet Euro6d compliant, the information on MB's UK website implies this is correct, and perusal of the web throws up several references to the fact that Euro6d engines for the Sprinter are not expected in the UK until June 2020.

 

Given this is true, then the 'van in question will not currently be subject to the new VED regime.

 

(It is apparent that the same Dethleffs model being advertised for sale in Germany does have the Euro6d engine, but it would appear that RHD Sprinters destined for the UK market are not yet so equipped - either because the chassis is built without it, as above, or because the converter is using "run-out" stock. It is also interesting to note that all Hymer Sprinter based models, with the exception of the MLT, are specifically not equipped with Euro6d engines in either of the current English or German listings).

 

 

The Dethleffs 2020 GB/NZ/IRL brochure

 

https://www.dethleffs.co.uk/fileadmin/user_upload/dethleffs/uk/Downloads/Kataloge/2020/PL20_GB_Globeline.pdf

 

states on Page 46 that the Globeline T 6613 EB model has a “Euro VI D” motor. The brochure also indicates that a weight upgrade from 3499kg to 4100kg is an option.

 

Vahicle tax rate guidance relating to cars/motorhomes is here

 

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-tax-rate-tables

 

My understanding is that the DVLA has decided to apply those rules only to motorhomes with Euro 6d-TEMP motors, and (obviously) to permit such a motorhome to be assigned to a graduated VED class there would also need to be a CO2 emissions datum on the vehicle’s Certificate of Conformity.

 

MMM motorhome reviews seldom provide any indication of when the test was carried out, so it’s quite likely that the Globeline T 6613 EB Peter Vaughan wrote about was a 2019 model with Euro 6b motor and/or had no CO2 value on its CoC. If that were so, then that vehicle would indeed not be placed in a graduated VED class by the DVLA.

 

Logically, if the 2020 Dethleffs brochure is to be believed and 2020 model-year Globeline motorhomes start to arrive in the UK with their documentation stating that they have a Euro 6d-TEMP motor and their CoC carrying a CO2 value, it should be expected that the DVLA will assign them to a graduated VED class and charge the ‘higher rates of tax’.

[Robinhood]

Another view from an industry paper, potentially confirming Derek's German extract.

 

=====

 

What does Euro VI mean and is it the same as Euro 6?

 

Confusingly, Euro VI is something different, referring to the emissions testing regime for ‘heavy duty’ vehicles.

 

Vans that have a reference mass (the unladen weight plus 25kg) of 2,380kg can be made eligible for Euro VI emissions testing rather than Euro 6 testing, and are subsequently labelled heavy duty.

 

Those tested under Euro 6 are known as light duty.

 

Is there an advantage to Euro VI vans versus Euro 6 vans?

 

Heavy duty vehicles don’t have to go through WLTP testing (yet), but light duty ones do, which means heavy duty models may require less sophisticated emissions control technology.

 

This may reduce costs, improve fuel economy or even increase payload. But could make Euro VI vehicles subject to future restrictions that Euro 6 vehicles are not.

 

Confusingly, because of the cross over in weights, there are vehicles that could be eligible for either heavy-duty emissions testing or light-duty emissions testing.

 

The original buyer of the vehicle is the one that chooses, so going forward when looking at used vans you’ll have to check the documentation even more carefully to make sure you know exactly what you’re buying.

 

=======

 

It may well be, then, that MB are shipping at least some Sprinters (if not all) under the Euro VI emissions regime (rather than WLTP Euro 6d) and that this is, for the time being, negating the requirement for a CO2 figure on the final CoC. (or Dethleffs is choosing to have them delivered as heavy-duty, rather than light-duty, vehicles).

[Derek Uzzell]

When I read Peter Vaughan’s ‘VED-related’ comment in his MMM magazine review of the Dethleffs Globeline, I thought it was odd but (as I shan’t be buying a Globeline) it’s accuracy did not concern me. I’ll re-quote Peter’s statement

 

You also might not have expected Dethleffs to have opted for the rear-wheel drive Sprinter, when several rivals have gone for the front-drive version. But it seems that the company has benefited here, in the UK at least, as the rear-wheel drive Merc is not subject to the new higher rates of VED (road tax) applied to other motorhomes...

 

and there seems little doubt that the inference is that a new motorhome built on a rear-wheel drive (RWD) Mercedes Sprinter base would not be placed in the UK’s graduated VED classes, whereas a new motorhome built on a Mercedes Sprinter (FWD) front-wheel drive base would.

 

A cursory check shows that, for the 2020 model-year, at least nine Continental European manufacturers will be marketing motorhomes based on a Sprinter platform in either RWD or FWD format.

 

(I looked at the 2020 Rapido brochure where the latest M-series range uses a FWD Sprinter cowl-unit with AL-KO rear chassis and (just to further complicate matters) the motors are stated as being compliant with the “Euro 6c EVAP anti-pollution standard” which I thought normally related to petrol-fuelled engines.)

 

If, as Peter Vaughan’s comment suggests, the Dethleffs Globeline RWD Sprinter-based model would be UK-registered under the ‘old’ gross-weight-based VED regimen, but motorhomes using a FWD Sprinter chassis would be placed in the more expensive CO2 emissions-based graduated VED classes, presumably all new 2020 Sprinter-based Auto-Sleepers models - being RWD - would also be placed in the historic PLG or PHGV VED classes according to the model’s gross weight.

[colin]

I note that the online version of review I linked to above, still states 3499kg

[Derek Uzzell]

The listing in the “Tech Specs” section of the on-line review you provided a link to does indeed say Maximum weight (kg) 3499 but this summarised listing differs from the equivalent Facts and Figures section in the hard-copy magazine article.

 

If you look at the on-line review’s “Full Details” section (that is closer to the magazine article’s textual content) you’ll see that the 4th paragraph reads

 

But the Globeline T 6613 motorhome is not the leviathan you might anticipate. Indeed, at under 7m long it is a good deal more compact than many Mercedes-based motorhomes. And it’s available on a licence-friendly 3,499kg chassis, too, although the test vehicle was optionally upgraded to 4,100kg.

 

A Globeline model’s gross weight would only be relevant if the motothome were UK-registered under the ‘old’ system where the 3499kg version would be assigned to the PLG VED class and the 4100kg version to the PHGV VED class. If a Globeline were assigned to the graduated VED classes, its gross weight (apparently) would be ignored.