You are logged in as a guest. 
  Home Forums Home  Search our Forums Search our Forums    Log in to the Forums Log in to the Forums  register Register on the Forums  

 Forums ->  Motorhomes -> Motorhome Matters
Jump to page : First 1 2 3 NextLast
Format:  Go
That X2/50 engine/gearbox earth strap - again..
AuthorMessage
userSteve928
Posted: 4 November 2013 8:55 PM
Subject: That X2/50 engine/gearbox earth strap - again..
 


Epic contributor

Posts: 1164
10001002525
Location: Fife, Eura Mobil Profila T720EB


The van (Boxer 2.2 2008) had sat for 3 weeks which is rare for us. Went to start it and it started normally then stopped abruptly after 10 seconds or so. Thought I must have stalled it so retried with the same result. Then the immobiliser light (the padlock symbol) came on.

Disconnected and reconnected the battery and got 2 more tries with the same result until the immobiliser light was back on permanently this time. No glowplug light and no low pressure fuel pump running, radio unable to connect, no connection on the ODB diagnostics port.
Other odd symtoms like oil quantity reading varying wildy and the fuel gauge dropping to zero then recovering.

Ahh thinks me, this could be that earth strap problem higlighted by Nick/Euroserv. Took it off and cleaned everything up and refitted it but to no avail. Even tried backing it up with a jump lead between the engine and the earth point.

Saga breakdown assistance sent an AA patrolman who diagnosed (correctly) no power at the ECU and was able to make a temporary fix to power it up via the fusebox to get the engine to start and run, this because we needed to drive the van 300m or so to extricate it from our house and steep, narrow unmade lane to reach a point where the recovery lorry could get to it. We made about 50m before it stopped again.

ECU removed, all contacts cleaned and worked, ditto the fusebox, but no real improvement.

Second AA man came next day to try and arrange the recovery but left scratching his head saying he'd just have to leave it all to the recovery driver who would need to call up special assistance or something..
So while waiting for the recovery appointment I thought it worth a try to go and buy a shiny new earth strap. Fitted it and the van started and ran first time and seems so far to behave perfectly normally.

So not noticing Nick's advice that a new strap was always required and that cleaning up the old one was no good has cost me 2 days of hassle. As the man says, replace your earth straps every 4 years with a top quality new one folks. We had no warning whatsover of this problem before it bit in year 5 and visibly the old strap looked good with no corrosion evident.
usereuroserv
Posted: 5 November 2013 9:34 AM
Subject: RE: That X2/50 engine/gearbox earth strap - again..
 
Epic contributor

Posts: 1685
1000500100252525
Location: Leicester



That's the nearest emoticon i could find that looks slightly smug.
Seriously though; I am delighted that the word is getting out there and that it helped you. Thanks for spreading it further.

Nick
userBillggski
Posted: 5 November 2013 10:33 AM
Subject: RE: That X2/50 engine/gearbox earth strap - again..
 


Forum master

Posts: 2160
20001002525
Location: Dethleffs A5881 Staffordshire


Is this just a 2.2 puma engine issue? Or does the fiat engine have the same problem?
userSteve928
Posted: 5 November 2013 10:41 AM
Subject: RE: That X2/50 engine/gearbox earth strap - again..
 


Epic contributor

Posts: 1164
10001002525
Location: Fife, Eura Mobil Profila T720EB


It affects the Fiat-Iveco engines too in fact I don't believe that Nick runs any Puma-engined vans.
This is the original thread highlighting the issue: http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/X250-Engine-earth-fault/21815/

And this is the bit that I forgot about, to my cost...
We have removed and cleaned several of these earth straps and have not been able to improve things. The only solution has been to fit a new earth cable


Edited by Steve928 2013-11-05 10:41 AM
userBillggski
Posted: 6 November 2013 11:40 AM
Subject: RE: That X2/50 engine/gearbox earth strap - again..
 


Forum master

Posts: 2160
20001002525
Location: Dethleffs A5881 Staffordshire


Thanks for pointing me to that.
Should it be a sticky (without the ford v fiat bit)?
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 6 November 2013 2:46 PM
Subject: RE: That X2/50 engine/gearbox earth strap - again..
 


50005000500020001000500100100100
Location: MODERATOR - 2015 Rapido 640F LHD 2.3ltr 150bhp


Billggski - 2013-11-06 11:40 AM

Thanks for pointing me to that.
Should it be a sticky (without the ford v fiat bit)?


I guess it could be added to the "USEFULL TIPS" thread at the top of the Hints and Tips forum, but so could so many other useful caveats and pieces of advice. These forums are ineffective as databases, which is why there will inevitably be a lot of repetition.
userurbanracer
Posted: 6 November 2013 4:18 PM
Subject: RE: That X2/50 engine/gearbox earth strap - again..
 
Gets involved

Posts: 225
10010025


Do you buy the OE earth from your local Fiat/Peugeot dealer or is there a
spec for this cable so as to be able to buy from an Auto electrical dealer.
userSteve928
Posted: 6 November 2013 5:17 PM
Subject: RE: That X2/50 engine/gearbox earth strap - again..
 


Epic contributor

Posts: 1164
10001002525
Location: Fife, Eura Mobil Profila T720EB


I just went to the nearest auto electrician (actually the one that the van was due to be recovered to) and bought a stock braided and tinned copper strap with crimped ends. They only had the one type in stock, in different lengths and I had no time to shop around.

The OE part is similar but un-tinned. Why I'm not sure because un-tinned copper will degrade in a damp and salty atmosphere (all marine cable for example has tinned conductors). Of course the part on my van was made in 2008; the spec. may have change latterly.
usereuroserv
Posted: 6 November 2013 5:54 PM
Subject: RE: That X2/50 engine/gearbox earth strap - again..
 
Epic contributor

Posts: 1685
1000500100252525
Location: Leicester


The simplest thing to do is to get a piece of welding wire about 10 inches long. Get crimp terminals with 6mm holes added to each end. done. If it's too long for your vehicle just put a 'pig tail' loop in it. Attach it to the original earth point inside the chassis runner and attach the other end to under one of the screws on the gearbox end cover.
Done.
This should last considerably longer than the OE item and may well last the lifetime of the vehicle if the cable is correctly insulated and the terminals are galvanised.
userTracker
Posted: 6 November 2013 5:56 PM
Subject: RE: That X2/50 engine/gearbox earth strap - again..
 


500020002000
Location: Vanless in Evesham.


I fitted an 18" black battery cable with crimped ring terminal ends from Halfords for about a fiver.
userCorky 8
Posted: 6 November 2013 7:54 PM
Subject: RE: That X2/50 engine/gearbox earth strap - again..
 


Epic contributor

Posts: 1049
100025
Location: S/W Scotland. Lunar Landstar ews (sprinter)


Does anyone know why this happens ,an earthing cable is an earthing cable, if there is no break,s in the cable what,s going wrong, surely the continuity of the braid can be checked,? or is this a contact to chassis problem, I just cant get my head round an unbroken cable not functioning as it should. If it was carbon cored like some HT used to be I could understand its failure,
userPeter James
Posted: 6 November 2013 8:10 PM
Subject: RE: That X2/50 engine/gearbox earth strap - again..
 


Corky 8 - 2013-11-06 7:54 PM

Does anyone know why this happens ,an earthing cable is an earthing cable, if there is no break,s in the cable what,s going wrong, surely the continuity of the braid can be checked,? or is this a contact to chassis problem, I just cant get my head round an unbroken cable not functioning as it should. If it was carbon cored like some HT used to be I could understand its failure,


I think it must be a poor connection (i.e corrosion) between the cable and the metal connector crimped on the end of it. So cleaning the connection between the metal connector and the vehicle body doesn't help. (The lower the voltage, the less able it is to jump through a bad connection. Which is why very important low voltage contacts are gold plated )

Edited by Peter James 2013-11-06 8:16 PM
userPeter James
Posted: 6 November 2013 8:19 PM
Subject: RE: That X2/50 engine/gearbox earth strap - again..
 


Steve928 - 2013-11-04 8:55 PM
tried backing it up with a jump lead between the engine and the earth point.



Must have had a bad connection there as well?

Thanks for posting though, its all interesting and useful stuff.
userBrianBW
Posted: 6 November 2013 8:27 PM
Subject: RE: That X2/50 engine/gearbox earth strap - again..
 
Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 169
1002525


When I recommended this some time ago in this forum, I was ridiculed. Comments like, 'This is not in the handbook' So its nice to see others have found the advice useful.
userauntyjanet1
Posted: 6 November 2013 9:13 PM
Subject: RE: That X2/50 engine/gearbox earth strap - again..
 


10025
Location: Port Talbot Peugeot 2013 Autocruise Rythym Sport


BrianBW - 2013-11-06 8:27 PM

When I recommended this some time ago in this forum, I was ridiculed. Comments like, 'This is not in the handbook' So its nice to see others have found the advice useful.


Well said Brian , before having a go at your advice on earth straps some of the so called experts on this forum ,including one who contributes to the MMM magazine. (not Nick) should take a look at your website,for anyone who is interested have a look at www.ourwanderer.org you may find it interesting and informative!
userTracker
Posted: 6 November 2013 9:22 PM
Subject: RE: That X2/50 engine/gearbox earth strap - again..
 


500020002000
Location: Vanless in Evesham.


Having had similar earth strap issues on older cars over the years, on the day that Nick first told us about the problem on x2/50s I went out and bought a new lead.

Less than 10 minutes to fit - including washing hands and locking the van and garage up afterwards - simples - why wouldn't you do it?

For the low cost involved any precaution that may save grief abroad is worth taking in my view.
userBillggski
Posted: 7 November 2013 8:25 AM
Subject: RE: That X2/50 engine/gearbox earth strap - again..
 


Forum master

Posts: 2160
20001002525
Location: Dethleffs A5881 Staffordshire


OK then, I'll check mine.
But where is it?
The original thread said under the floor is the access point.
usercolin
Posted: 7 November 2013 8:40 AM
Subject: RE: That X2/50 engine/gearbox earth strap - again..
 


Legendary contributor

Posts: 8180
500020001000100252525
Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


Billggski - 2013-11-07 8:25 AM

OK then, I'll check mine.
But where is it?
The original thread said under the floor is the access point.


Checking doesn't realy tell you much, just replace with better item or add a second one before problems occur.
It's in engine bay, from gearbox to chassis, on righthand side as you look from the front.
userSteve928
Posted: 7 November 2013 9:24 AM
Subject: RE: That X2/50 engine/gearbox earth strap - again..
 


Epic contributor

Posts: 1164
10001002525
Location: Fife, Eura Mobil Profila T720EB


colin - 2013-11-07 8:40 AM

Billggski - 2013-11-07 8:25 AM

OK then, I'll check mine.
But where is it?
The original thread said under the floor is the access point.


Checking doesn't realy tell you much, just replace with better item or add a second one before problems occur.
.


+1. Just replace it and be wise like Tracker and not a numpty like me
This photo is the faulty part and it still looks fine to me!



(earth.JPG)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments earth.JPG (84KB - 1009 downloads)
userspospe
Posted: 7 November 2013 9:50 AM
Subject: RE: That X2/50 engine/gearbox earth strap - again..
 


Forum master

Posts: 2276
2000100100252525
Location: Stockport 2014 Autosleeper Warwick Duo 2.2 130bhp


The left-hand terminal looks quite corroded to me, or is this just an effect of the light?
userBillggski
Posted: 7 November 2013 1:47 PM
Subject: RE: That X2/50 engine/gearbox earth strap - again..
 


Forum master

Posts: 2160
20001002525
Location: Dethleffs A5881 Staffordshire


The original post says "access from above" I assume this means lifting the floor panel.
(Just to save me time poking about underneath)
userSteve928
Posted: 7 November 2013 1:55 PM
Subject: RE: That X2/50 engine/gearbox earth strap - again..
 


Epic contributor

Posts: 1164
10001002525
Location: Fife, Eura Mobil Profila T720EB


Just the light, spospe.

Under the bonnet, RH side, down behind the air filter and fusebox, Billggski.
userBillggski
Posted: 7 November 2013 2:37 PM
Subject: RE: That X2/50 engine/gearbox earth strap - again..
 


Forum master

Posts: 2160
20001002525
Location: Dethleffs A5881 Staffordshire


Ta
userSteve928
Posted: 2 December 2013 8:59 AM
Subject: RE: That X2/50 engine/gearbox earth strap - again..
 


Epic contributor

Posts: 1164
10001002525
Location: Fife, Eura Mobil Profila T720EB


Oh dear. It seems that the new earth strap was not the complete solution that it at first seemed to be.

3 weekends away and 600+ fault free miles in all conditions later we set out for a day away yesterday.
Started the van, reversed out onto the lane, pulled away and began crawling up our lane in 1st. gear. Then I turned the lights on and the engine died and will not restart and is now showing the exact same symptoms as it originally did in post #1.

I can't believe that it will be the earth strap again especially as I fitted an addtional one but clearly there is some kind of transient electical problem here. Fun and games.

usereuroserv
Posted: 2 December 2013 11:43 AM
Subject: RE: That X2/50 engine/gearbox earth strap - again..
 
Epic contributor

Posts: 1685
1000500100252525
Location: Leicester


Hello Steve,

I am sorry to hear that you are having problems again. You will first have to check that the new earth strap is clean and secure but if this is ok you more than likely have a wiring fault. These are far too common and are normally on one side or the other of the connector that joins the fuse box loom to the injection loom. The plug is blue in colour and resides underneath the fuse box. In order to access this and the other bundles of wiring you should remove the near side headlamp and then the fuse box cover. The fuse board will now pivot up towards the off side and you will see the connector underneath, or you can pull it out completely to examine it. There may be one or more corroded wires that more than likely will pull out of the connector. We have had to solder wires back together; missing out the connector on many occasions, and so have our local dealers.
Another thing to check; before you get into the wiring is the large CAL 5 fuse on the battery positive terminal under the passenger footwell. These have been known to blow and you can't start the engine without it. It may be intact but showing a high resistance; anything over about 15 ohms would indicate a problem. These fuses are not normally available from factors, you would probably have to get one from a Fiat, Citroen or Peugeot dealer. I don't know which other manufacturers use them.

The electrics on these vehicles are a bugger; but easy enough to repair when you know where to look!

Nick
userSteve928
Posted: 2 December 2013 12:37 PM
Subject: RE: That X2/50 engine/gearbox earth strap - again..
 


Epic contributor

Posts: 1164
10001002525
Location: Fife, Eura Mobil Profila T720EB


Thanks for your input Nick it is, as always, appreciated.

I have ordered yet another a new earth strap anyway, this time in flexible copper welding/starter cable as per your earlier advice. The one that I fitted came from the local auto-electrician and appears to be steel braid but is I guess still unlikely to be the problem this time around even so.

I'm also going to clean and remake the 3 earth points that are beneath the NS headlight: there are 3 wires from the loom going to earth here. Could be just for the lights, or even a fusebox earth perhaps - I don't know..

I did have the engine bay fusebox swivelled-up the last time and I removed the 2 or 3 large multi-plugs and gave them a cursory inspection, but I will go back in again with a fine-toothed comb and inspect each wire individually as you suggest. It was all clean and dry down there.

I'm pretty sure that no fuses are blown because the engine will start and run sometimes. Having dragged the van out of the lane yesterday behind the neighbour's Navara, I went down this morning and it started first time and I was able to drive it around the house to its normal parking spot whereupon the engine promptly cut out again after ticking-over for 20 seconds or so.

My initial thoughts (prompted by what the AA man found last time) is that the relay that supplies the ECU is sometimes not being energised or is dropping out. This is in that same fusebox so it seems that the culprit is in that area somewhere; bad contact, weak earth, broken wire etc. or even just a bad relay I guess.

Thanks again and I'll let you know how I get on.
Steve

Edited by Steve928 2013-12-02 12:38 PM
usercolin
Posted: 2 December 2013 3:42 PM
Subject: RE: That X2/50 engine/gearbox earth strap - again..
 


Legendary contributor

Posts: 8180
500020001000100252525
Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


Just be on the safe side I would take off top of air filter and check for mouse damage, I´m a bit paranoid about that after the problems I had.
userSteve928
Posted: 2 December 2013 3:51 PM
Subject: RE: That X2/50 engine/gearbox earth strap - again..
 


Epic contributor

Posts: 1164
10001002525
Location: Fife, Eura Mobil Profila T720EB


Well Nick it looks like you're going to be spot on in your diagnosis.
By the time that light stopped play today (having cleaned and checked every earth connection I could find) I've discovered that the fault can be cleared by pulling down hard on the wiring loom where it disappears into the underside of the fusebox.

- Ign. turned on, immobiliser light on, nothing running, dead as a dodo.
- pull down on the loom and the pumps start up. Immobiliser light clears, glowplug relay engages.
- release it and all goes dead again..

So tomorrow, weather permitting it will be out with the headlight and fusebox and the search for a broken wire etc. will begin in earnest.

We really don't deserve you on here!


(The air filter has just been changed, Colin. Thanks for the thought though.)
userspospe
Posted: 2 December 2013 7:27 PM
Subject: RE: That X2/50 engine/gearbox earth strap - again..
 


Forum master

Posts: 2276
2000100100252525
Location: Stockport 2014 Autosleeper Warwick Duo 2.2 130bhp


euroserv - 2013-12-02 11:43 AM

The electrics on these vehicles are a bugger; but easy enough to repair when you know where to look!

Nick


Nick,

Just curious, but are the problems linked to water ingress? I can easily understand corroded wires in the presence of water and obviously this water has to come from somewhere. I wonder if it could be due to the oft reported water ingress. Is the problem more acute in older, less well sealed vans, or is it across the board?
usereuroserv
Posted: 3 December 2013 10:53 AM
Subject: RE: That X2/50 engine/gearbox earth strap - again..
 
Epic contributor

Posts: 1685
1000500100252525
Location: Leicester


Hi Spospe,

The simple answer is no. The water ingress issue tends to have water running behind the windscreen scuttle and onto the engine or in the case of campers sometimes the water outlets at either end of the scuttle become over loaded with debris or the outlet pipes are not secure so excess water drains off where it is not supposed to but that is not what causes the wiring faults.

I have stripped many looms down while looking for faults and they are almost always caused by either moisture (that is a naturally occurring phenomenon under any vehicle bonnet) at a poorly sealed joint or cables that have become chaffed by rubbing together. Some of the worst ones I have seen have been covered with residue from muddy water, so I suspect that driving through deep standing water that does not kill the engine or gearbox gets it's revenge on the electrics down the line.

The national speciality of Italy is spaghetti and they sure know how to make a meal of it in an engine bay! The looms are not well made, the routing is not especially clever and the connectors are not well enough protected from the elements. The only positive thing that I can add to that is that at least the wiring is accessible. I have tried to solve electrical faults on Transits without success because it is hidden and illogical in the way that it is run in the engine bay. Many mechanics that I have spoken to have walked away from injection or glow plug wiring faults on Sprinters for similar reasons. The Fiat is not great but it is not the worst to work on.
Nick
Jump to page : First 1 2 3 NextLast
Printer friendly version
E-mail a link to this thread
Jump to forum :


(Delete all cookies set by this site)(Return to Homepage)

Any problems? Contact the administrator