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Trojan T105's as replacements for failed banners ??


ajpepe72

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The Trojan's are a good, reliable Brand that can handle Deep discharges and still give reasonable lifetime.

 

But they are not hi tech and the advances made by the inclusion of new technology, like Powerframe and EFB, High Carbon, etc into more modern batteries means the best newer stuff keeps up better than they used to without the huge expense.

 

The other many disadvantages of the older technology, like slower charging, higher self discharge, poor tolerance to long term charge (like Solar and EHU), lower efficiency, enormous load on the Alternator, high fluid loss, etc are too big a factor against them, IMO.

 

 

If you really need to Deep Discharge an Exide Gel is a better proposition, but again charges half as fast as a Yuasa L36-EFB.

 

The L36-EFB has almost zero fluid loss, fast charging +170% greater, low self discharge, higher than average long term Solar, etc.

Used above 50% DOD it will deliver 230'ish cycles for only £119.

 

 

The Trojans are best left on Boats which is a very different environment to a modern motorhome.

 

 

 

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We had an industrial pedestrian floor sweeper/ vacuum cleaner at work that used two of those in series to power the fan/traction motor. They survived deep discharging & rapid recharging from a 3 stage 20A industrial charger for several years before loosing capacity.

 

They were rather thirsty used in this application & required regular top-ups. They also suffered more terminal corrosion than any other batteries I have experienced - I don't recall them having a facility for an external breather & the batteries were in an enclosed housing, so I guess the batteries were venting through the caps & the fumes did the damage to the cable connectors. Regular applications of battery terminal grease helped, but didn't erradicate the corrosion issues entirely and I replaced the terminal connectors at least twice that I can recall, and the interconnecting cable at least once, due to corrosion. As the batteries have recently gone to the scrapman, I can't check to see if there was a blanked off breather port.

 

So I don't think they are hyped-up but, being industrial traction batteries, they are not "fit & forget". I would suggest investigating the breather arrangements further before deciding to fit them to a motorhome.

 

HTH

 

Nigel B

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ah ok, may not be ideal then for my situation.

 

they quote 1600 charge cycles @ 50% discharge and 1000 cycles @ 80% which I thought was very high.

 

as for my charging regime, the camper is not used every weekend, infact maybe 10 - 15 weekends a year and only around 5 of those weekends would be without hook up.

Charging sources are via the alternator, I also have a 20amp mains charger which operates when I hook up, this has a charge profile of 14.8v bulk and 13.6v float.

I also have 100w solar with mppt controller which has profile of 14.3v bulk and 13.2v float, this is obviously on the van full time so is always putting in some charge during the day, which can range from 0 to 7 amps.

 

based on the above would your recommendations still be as above ?

 

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Old technology Trojan's really won't like higher voltage charging. Corrosion and gassing will be a major shortener to life time.

I would guess at maybe half the life lost and big reductions in Capacity.

 

They don't like Solar either, if you go for these, only activate the Solar when it is required, don't leave it on all the time or life may be exceedingly short. Fit a switch/Fuse.

 

 

I know some batteries have very high rated cycle lives, but in a motorhome it is rarely the using up of those cycles that brings them to End Of Life, it is the corrosion, Antimony Poisoning, Sulphation, etc. that dictates their EOL, not because they have 'failed' but because Capacity has dropped so low.

Usually long before the cycles are used up.

 

 

The Yuasa L36-EFB is a new breed of battery, optimised for a motorhome environment in every way. The cycle life may not be mega, but everything else about them is optimised to actually keep the battery optimum so they can last much longer than the cycle life might suggest.

The Varta LFD90 is older but in the same category, and that has shown how a £89 pip squeak (when we first started promoting Powerframe technology) can take on Goliath.

 

 

It is ok to talk about deep cycling down to 80% but how the heck do you get that 180amps charge back into a slow reacting battery from an Alternator?

 

 

Don't get too hung up on cycle life, it is actually one of the least important characteristics in a modern motorhome battery.

For example at 10 weekends a year it would take a theoretical 20 years to use up even a £120 Yuasa's 230 cycles, so are you sure you really need the slow charging of a old tech battery?

 

With your charger set-up, you may get the best life out of a pair of Varta LFD90's as it's Silver technology is slightly better at resisting higher charge voltages and 'overcharge' from Solar.

 

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Not just the Solar, your mains charger has a higher than ideal rate for most Wet batteries, they will annihilate a Banner Energy Bulls at 50 paces. Bear in mind the Trojans I have cut open use the same old technology as the old Energy Bull, which gives you a little clue as to which way the Trojan's might go?

 

 

Sorry, I automatically say two batteries because two batteries will, generally, charge faster than one, not because they are always necessary.

 

I assumed that you occasionally had a requirement for deeper discharging and that would be better shared across two batteries.

Two Varta's shallow charged to under 25% DOD could give a 1,000 cycles, versus the 200+ at 50% DOD.

 

If you buy the Varta's/Yuasa's from Alpha, ask for a discount and mention us. It isn't much or guaranteed, it is more of a guide for their own purposes to gauge support for their new Ethical business model. But they are competitive with Tayna anyway.

 

 

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Sorry Andy, what I mean is I want two batteries, the banners were a matched pair and I want to buy as close to that capacity as I can so am looking for two.

 

Funny you should mention about the charge rate. the failure of my banners is pretty much my fault, at the end of the first year I checked them and all was good with the levels, they hadn't really lost any electrolyte so the second year I did not check them, ive just checked them this week and in all the cells the electrolyte levels were about an inch below the top of the plates !

ive topped up and recharged which they do fine and hold a steady 12.7 volts but a 4amp load has them down to 12.1 volts (on load) within 90 minutes so they are toast.

 

I never take them down below 12.1 volts (again on load) so new ones would never get taken below 50% unless I really needed to.

 

Like you have mentioned the 200 cycles although sounding low to say another quoting 500 isn't really a factor. your comment of lasting 20 years at 10 weekends a year puts that well and truly into perspective.

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ajpepe72 - 2018-09-05 8:56 PM

 

Sorry Allan,

Funny you should mention about the charge rate. The failure of my Banners is pretty much my fault, at the end of the first year I checked them and all was good with the levels, they hadn't really lost any electrolyte so the second year I did not check them, I've just checked them this week and in all the cells the electrolyte levels were about an inch below the top of the plates !

 

Like you have mentioned the 200 cycles although sounding low to say another quoting 500 isn't really a factor. your comment of lasting 20 years at 10 weekends a year puts that well and truly into perspective.

 

 

I would just like to say you have reinforced my point that Deep Cycling batteries that focus too much on that one single element, are prone to never achieving that goal.

 

I assume your Banners (which although 'fragile' and need lots of TLC, can be capable of 200 + tough cycles) actually only achieved two years worth of 15 weekends, equivalent to about 30 cycles before soon going on to a new life on a Church Roof?

The Banner Energy Bull's 200 cycle life (and potential 20 year life) came to nought all because they are one of the most prone to Internal Corrosion and resultant high fluid loss.

 

 

A motorhome environment is so complex in the way the 12v battery gets hammered, it is the way the best batteries look after themselves that sets them apart from the worst that need you to look after them.

It is the 'Deep Cyclers' that are usually the worst at that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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so, im on the fence now so am going to take your advise:

If you were me, would you opt for a pair of the Yausas or the vartas or is there nothing in it?

 

Also do either have the option to check fluid level, I know you mentioned the yuasa having next to zero loss but this episode with the banners has made me very wary to the point I want to be over the top with maintenance from now on.

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It is a decision for you to make.

 

However, I had a similar question this morning about charge rate and fluid loss so will reprint that here :

 

Hello K, The Yuasa L36-EFB uses advanced, high Carbon Calcium, low fluid loss technology so should be close to zero fluid loss, but it's a new battery so how it actually performs is an unknown.

 

We know the Varta LFD90 doesn't gas at all, even at slightly higher voltages, and I think the Yuasa will be close, but can't say it definitely will.

 

So you need to make a decision, but bear in mind that the AGM batteries that the retailers say don't gas, actually do, it's low amounts but they lose fluid, contrary to myth.

 

My guess is that even if the Yuasa L36-EFB does lose some fluid, it will still be less than the 'usual' AGM.

Allan.

 

 

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Then maybe my 'generic' reply above gives an indication of just how common this issue is and how many still struggle with the concept that the best of modern Wet Batteries just don't lose fluid?

 

The Energy Bull high water loss rate fiasco really has set Wet Battery technology perception backwards, yet the developments under the EFB umbrella has advanced them massively in the last few years and becoming the best for use in Motorhomes.

 

 

The Banner Energy Bull fiasco has just been going on far too long, we first raised it with Banners Head Lee williams, in 2014. he sent us loads of charts explaining we didn't know what we were talking about. Which, even given the huge amount of additional knowledge we have acquired since, wasn't quite fair.

 

 

It is 04:00 in the morning and I am too uncomfortable to sleep, this second dose of Chemo has reacted badly. So apologies for the below, but I have already had two emails disagreeing with my above

comments on Trojans so I am going to use this reply as 'my therapy' to take my mind off the pain.

 

Just ignore it and read a decent post from someone else.

 

 

One of the emails takes me to task saying the Banner Energy Bull doesn't lose fluid they just get misused, even quoting the CURRENT Roadpro Banner FAQ web page which still says they don't gas off fluid, it says -

 

"Q) Do I need to put a venting tube on my battery?

A) A vent pipe is used to clear gases away from a battery so that they vent externally. “Energy Bull”

batteries don’t need to do this as they are “recombination batteries” and gas internally.

A normally operated battery has no need to be vented under normal circumstances. If however

there is an electrical fault or an imbalance on the charging system some manufacturers prefer to

have the battery ' vented ' as an extra safety feature and vent pipes are available from RoadPro to

fit the “Energy Bull” range. The boiling / gassing point of a Banner Energy Bull battery is 14.5V".

 

 

 

So even now there is info out there saying they are maintenance free - Don't use a vent pipe with the highest gassing battery on the market? The Roadpro's 14.5v gassing voltage is a little bit different to Banners own charts which say it is 13.8v!!!! See a chart below that was sent to me when we first spoke to Banner about the problems we were seeing with premature Energy Bull battery failures. I lists the different gassing voltages of the different battery technologies quite clearly and Roadpros 14.5v isn't one of them.

 

 

 

The first time I can find our publicly documented concern on the unsuitability of Energy Bull's in the UK market, was back in 2015, here :

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Banner-Batteries-Knackered-After-6-Months/40167/

 

If you bother to read the Post, start at 1 December 2015 11:05 PM as the previous section relates to premature failure of Banner AGM Running Bull 'Leisure' batteries that history also has since shown were an inapproriate fitment'.

 

The comment after mine on the thread quoted that Bailey were also saying the Energy Bull were maintenance free and rolling them out as such.

 

If you did read the above thread, it sees me campaigning for change, and improvements to the NCC Verified battery scheme in 2015!!! Must be in my Blood.

 

 

We made our aware our concerns to Banner batteries. A protracted email exchange with the UK head, Lee Williams, in March 2014 in which they sent us the graphic below, which actually shows how high their fluid loss rate is compared to modern battery technology.

You will note that the similar construction BFB starts to gas off fluid at a very low 13.8v, so being held at a 'Trickle' on EHU will be bit of a disaster for such a battery in the UK market.

Note how the Silver technology battery (primitive version of that used by Varta) doesn't gas until 14.4v? The higher technology Varta' LFD90's don't even gas at 15v.

 

The Banner chart is quite good as it actually depicts the level of gassing and fluid loss in the technologies being used in the batteries. A high 2.7g for an Energy Bull compared to 0.3g fluid loss for a Silver technology Banner is huge.

 

When you consider a Varta with it's Silver and Powerframe low gassing/corrosion technology is worlds ahead of the Banner Silver, you can see why they claim no loss of fluid

 

 

 

So not only does Powerframe technology address the primary forms of battery failure, like Corrosion, Fluid Loss, etc but endows it with efficiency streets ahead of anything else. Efficiency that lasts right to EOL.

 

Bosch web page twice states "100% Maintenance Free" and "evaporated liquid remains in the battery".

 

This battery is safer to use inside the habitation area of a Motorhome/Caravan than even a Gel battery.

 

 

Our Summary of the benefits of a Varta Bosch Powerframe battery

 

 

Low self discharge : Stays highly charged up for 6 months +. Varta claim a 12 month shelf life.

 

High efficiency : Up to 70% better current flow over a similar age older battery.

 

Very Low internal corrosion : This makes it more efficient than the opposition, especially after 2 years +.

 

Long life and strong performance right to End Of Life.

 

Maintenance free : Zero fluid loss (so as safe inside the MH as Gel/AGM battery, see evidence below), actually safer, as the LFD is less likely to explode than either Gel or AGM.

 

Low cost : It's production uses 20% less energy, so it costs less than it's technology would normal merit.,

 

Faster charge up : Upto twice that of a budget 110Ah battery.

 

Lightest load on a charger of any battery technology : Significant from our point of view, they place a lighter load on the battery charging systems, both Mains 230v and the Alternator.

 

Exceptional high/low temperature operation range

 

 

 

Our Battery recommendations for various different challenges would be :-

 

The Varta LFD/Bosch L range is our "Best Budget Buy".

 

The Yuasa L36-EFB is our "Best Mid range" battery.

 

Our "Best Buy Top range" battery is the Gel Exide ES900 but this battery, like all Gel's has several issues, one of which is double the cost. It is very good at Deep Cycling and has a high number of cycles but they can take twice as long to charge up. They also need a special charge profile.

 

Gel batteries won't reach anywhere near their expected life if operated at higher temperatures (above 20 degrees) or at higher discharge current. A Gel will be a very poor match when paired with Inverters for example. We think they are too compromised for modern motorhome use, but where a special Deep Discharge need is required, little can beat them.

 

 

Well it is now 07:27 and my two little ones are awake, Adam (7) and Sophie (6) so time to pack up. Finding all the old links, charts has helped the morning go.

 

 

952396344_BannerBuffaloBullFluidlosschartsmall.jpg.86286d8e3647fbe516814f3427af14d9.jpg

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Great post Allan

So even with my mains chargers fairy high bulk voltage of 14.8 volts I should see next to no if not zero gassing compared to the banners which have obviously gassed lots for every cell to have lost at least an inch of fluid.

 

My solar regulator bulks at 14.3 volts , once I have obtained new batteries would you advise that my mains charger at 14.8 is ok or would you advise one more inline with my Solar charger (14.3v)

Removing the solar charge when batteries are full and van is laid up also sounds like very good practise rather than them constantly charging every day.

 

With my Solar, even if battery is full the voltage drops enough during the dark for it to trigger charging again during day.

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The charger voltage at 14.8v on 'Boost/'bulk' is a bit high (check it is on a Wet setting, not AGM) but I think in your case, which is slightly different to many, it will be OK because you only have it running for short periods while in the vehicle

Because you are using the vehicle at those times there will be some draw which will prevent an overcharge. Just having the display above the door turned on when you are inside is often enough to take off the edge of a potential overcharge. But in anycase, we are only talking short duration.

 

So your particular issue is primarily only about long term 'Float' charging rather than 'Bulk'/'boost'.

If you now plan on 'disabling' the Solar when the batteries are full and only reconnecting every 3 weeks or so then that won't be a issue either.

 

 

I would also guess that because your batteries have suffered damage the existing chargers behaviour, both Solar and Mains, may not be usual. Once you get good batteries in there maybe the 14.8v will reduce.

 

 

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my mains charger is a generic Chinese one ive had for few years

its the one in this link an RT10-12200

http://docplayer.me/docs-images/40/10989284/images/page_11.jpg

 

would I benefit from using say a Victron multistage charger :

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/d959f6_50b016ac649d4603af1d542629954975.pdf

 

Obviously I want to give whichever new batteries I buy the best chance in life.

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To balance the argument I have had a paur of Trojan TE 35s in use for nearly nine years in the motorhome

Charged 365 days a year by 80 watt solar

Batteries last a full 3 to 4 months every year whilst doing the race season on the isle of man without hook up

If and when we are on sites with hook up the rest of the year they are charged by a Victron inverter/charger

 

Trojans are the battery of choice on the inland waterways the ones on my own boat being eight years old 4 x Trogan T1275s they withstand constant abuse when out of the marina with chargung up to and over 120 amps showing on the battery monitor

When in the marina they are left on float again charged by a Victron inverter charger

The above is my own experience of Trojan batteries in constant use as when we are not in the van we are on the boat

With regard to water use I would say the van twice a year with the boat three times a year

Trojans may not be for every one but they are my choice for my use

Regards Ray

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That is clearly a Car battery charger, not a Motorhome one, so I have just pasted below a section from our webpage on how a Motorhome specific charger works and why : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/how-does-a-charger-work.php

Might be worth you reading the whole page as, although the difference between the two is subtle, the resulting battery state can be very different.

 

 

Everyone knows that a Motorhome/Caravan mains Charger starts off charging a Battery at 14.4v, then once the battery is fully charged, it drops down to 13.8v Trickle/Float, right?

 

It doesn't, that is usually the way Car battery chargers operate.

The best Motorhome or Caravan chargers, do not always function in that way. Although the operation may be only subtly different, the implications can be major, which we will explain below.

 

A Car battery style charger will 'boost' charge at 14.4v and when the current being drawn by the battery drops below a few amps, it switches to 'Float/Trickle' mode.

The problem with this style of operation in a Motorhome/Caravan, is that the chargers can be left active unattended for days, even months, so if the battery gets tired it may continually draw power at the 'Boost' voltage, never dropping down to the Float/Trickle charge rate. Obviously charging indefinitely at 14.4v is not only damaging to the battery but a gassing risk with potentially serious consequences, even fire or battery explosion if thermal runaway occurs.

 

Therefore the best/safest Motorhome/Caravan chargers use a timer mechanism for the 'Boost' voltage and drop down to a 'Float' charge after so many hours, regardless of whether the battery is fully charged or not.

 

 

So long as you understand the limitations and safety, then with your specific short interval use and longer term management of the batteries via Solar and EHU use, I don't think I would change my advice.

 

 

 

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Allan.

 

the Victron charger I linked to is 15amp. is this suitable for two batteries that give a bank total of 200ah capacity, or am I better with my current 20amp charger.

 

the typical scenario as far as the mains charger is concerned is I leave home with full batteries, get to my destination and then plug the van into hook up, as the batteries are full the chargers green light comes on (indicating its in float mode) the charger will then power on the full mode (fan runs) periodically as I use power. so the batteries actually never loose any real capacity when on hook up.

 

I notice the Victron charger also lists that it acts as a power supply once battery is charged, what this means I don't know ?

 

 

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There's another potential issue to consider. The Trojan 105 is a 225Ah battery, whilst the charger outputs 20A. Not terrible but still slightly on the weak side for such a massive battery isn't it? Also doubtful it manages the 20A for any significant amount of time. The same consideration would apply for dual Yuasa/Varta @ 180-210Ah combined, although obviously less so and especially if not discharged much.

 

Not sure it would be ideal or worthwhile for you but a 30A Victron would be a better option also because of the manual charging parameter adjustments.

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That was kind of my thinking, to be honest the biggest draw when we are 'off grid' with no hook up is the compressor fridge which uses between 1.5 and 1.7amps per hour, and to be fair in the summer months my 100w solar panel keeps up with that during the day, the battery voltage drops slightly over night but is normally back to full or near full at around midday on a good day. when its sunny it seems to put between 4.5 and 7 amps into the battery during the prime hours.

 

we are normally at least a couple of hours away from home so when we get back the alternator has done a fair bit of the charging so again the mains charger has not exactly got loads of work to do, and when we are away on hook up the mains charger is not having to recharge a discharged battery as it keeps the battery topped up while on location.

 

I have had a clamp meter on the charger and it seems to put 20 amps in until the voltage is in the mid 13’s I think then it always drops down to around 7 amps, not sure if it does this gradually or is a switch of current at a set voltage.

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If you were spending several days off grid then go to a campsite to charge the batteries back up from low then matching the charger to the battery bank size would be important. As it would if you were using a Generator.

 

But you said your use is almost all on EHU where the batteries will never actually discharge.

 

Even off EHU, the Alternator is picking up the load for 2 hours before you get home, where you probably plug in? By the time you do go on EHU the batteries will at such a state they won't draw much mains charge.

 

 

As I say above, in your specific position, I would leave the charger as it is, 20a is double at least 50% of all Caravans and Motorhomes in the UK.

 

It will drop into Power Supply mode automatically, all that means is when you need a bit of extra power for the Water pump, the charger/Power Supply picks up the load. The battery doesn't actually do any work at all while the mains charger is connected.

 

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Exactly Allan

 

there is never any combination of the two, we are either away without hook up and a decent drive home then onto the mains charger or we are on a campsite where we have hook up from the get go.

 

as regards my current charger which as far as I know does not have power supply mode. is it best for the batteries to keep it plugged in when away for say a weekend on hook up and let it kick in when it requires which is little and often as battery voltage drops slightly or would it be better to turn it off and let battery voltage drop to say 20-30% discharged then power it on to top up or does it not make much difference.

 

an upgrade to the Victron with power supply mode would not be worth it for that benefit alone?

 

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