BGD Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 I wanted to ask in anyone knows whether I can easily change the Truma water heater control panel in our 2001 Benimar MH for a later/different model, as our simple one doesn't have a light to indicate that the boiler is on. It just has one red light in the centre, that illuminates if whilst on, there's a fault (eg runs out of gas). It's a controller that's about the size of a packet of 10 ciggies, and has just a 3 position rocker switch that if off when centred, 50 degree water heat when "up" and 70 degree water heat when "down". At the bottom of the controller is written "Kaminkappe abnehmen". Maybe if I can't change the actual controller, there's some simple way to add a little green LED light to show that the thing is on? In edit: Third try at trying to add a photo of the controller, using the damn stupid upload system on this site that still, in year 2012, can't cope with file sizes larger than a ridiculously small 100kb........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted December 11, 2012 Author Share Posted December 11, 2012 Nope. Damn website still won't accept the photo....................even at only 86kb size. >:-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Your control-panel says it's for a "Truma Boiler" and the "Kaminkappe abnehmen" (Remove the cowl cap) must indicate that it's appropriate for a gas-fuelled boiler. However, when Truma's "Equipment Survey" webpage http://dealer.truma.com/_anweisungen/Truma-Katalog/index_gb.html?&language=en_gb&dataLanguage=en_gb is selected and the operating instructions documentation for gas boilers is studied, I can't find any sign of this design of control-panel. Truma gas-boiler production began in 1983 and - no matter the model of boiler and how old it is - none SEEM to have been marketed with your control-panel. The control-panel of a Truma gas boiler (even the earliest) normally has an ON/OFF switch, a switch allowing a water-temperature of 30°C to 70°C to be selected, a green 'in operation' light, and a red 'fault' light. There's advice about the Benimar "Truma Water Heater" on this file: http://www.benimarownersclub.org.uk/Hints%20&%20Tips/hints_and_tips.htm#WATER%20SYSTEM but (sadly) there are no pictures at that point in the file and I don't understand the references to "knob B" and "switch B". However, continuing to scroll down that file will eventually reveal a section titled "19. WATER HEATER (BOILER)" that describes the types of water heatter fitted to Benimar motorhomes. This section has a picture of a control-panel similar in principle to yours that includes a 3-way switch allowing a water-temperature choice of just 50°C or 70°C, plus a red 'failure' light. (There still seems to be no 'in operation' indicator though.) I'm pretty sure you could directly replace your control-panel with this neater, later design of panel, but this would not meet your objective to have an 'in operation' indicator-light. As your boiler control-panel has no means of selecting a graduated water temperature, no discrete ON/OFF switch and no 'in operation' light, it's very unlikely that attempting to replace it with the more sophisticated panel (that seems to be the norm for a Truma gas boiler and includes an 'in operation' indicator) would work. Adding an LED to show that the boiler has been switched on should be practicable I guess, but how best to do it would require an understanding of how your control-panel is wired. The two visible screw-heads suggest it should be straightforward to dismantle the control-panel and, once you can get at the guts of it, a multimeter should reveal where you could connect an LED (or LEDs) to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted December 12, 2012 Author Share Posted December 12, 2012 Derek - Many thanks for your reply............the Truma water heater controller fitted in our year 2001 Benimar 6000SL does indeed seem to be a bit of a mystery. I'd done a bit of research before I posted and couldn't find it anywhere on the Truma website, or in any google pictures of such things. The actual water heater sits under the rear seat of the double dinette, and is a Truma 10 litre capacity, gas-only ( ie without the mains electric water heating) one; but I'm also a little confused as to exactly which model it is. The yellow information sticker on it says: Type: BS10 Fabrication number: BS103-2081053 But I had thought from looking at the Truma website that their 201 vintage 10 litre capacity model numbers were simply "B10" (gas only) or "BN10" (gas and mains electric function)...........they make no mention of a model type called "BS10". So now I'm unsure as to whether mine is a standard "B10" even though it says the type is "BS10" on it's info label. Methinks an email to the Truma techies at their German HQ is on the cards, to determine exactly what kit I've actually got, why I've got a "wierd" controller, and whether I can swap it for the different, far more common, Truma water heater controller with the green "run" light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Truma B10 and B14 boilers have a control panel with the more complex specification I mentioned above, namely: "... an ON/OFF switch, a switch allowing a water-temperature of 30°C to 70°C to be selected, a green 'in operation' light, and a red 'fault' light.." However, I managed to find Truma documentation for a BS10/BS14 boiler here: http://ebookbrowse.com/truma-bs10-14-pdf-d229595870 This shows the control-panel pictured in the Benimar Owners' Club file and will presumably relate to a later-version boiler than yours. Perhaps more significant though are these non-Truma French operating instructions for a BS10/BS14 boiler that do depict your control-panel. http://abnice.free.fr/Telechargement/emploi%20Truma%20B10-14.pdf These suggest that the single light on the panel should illuminate green when the boiler is operating normally, turning to red if the boiler goes into 'fault mode'. (I provided Pilote with an English-language version of their Owners' handbook years ago and, when I checked, there's a drawing in the handbook of 'your' control-panel with the same explanation for the indicator-light - green=boiler working normally or red=fault.) Have you checked that the light actually functions? Does it illuminate red if you force the boiler into fault-mode? If it doesn't, then it's logical to assume the light itself has failed. (GOOGLE-ing on "Truma BS10" reveals that this model of boiler is not uncommon and I suspect it's a 'budget' version of the B10 with less sophisticated electronics.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted December 12, 2012 Author Share Posted December 12, 2012 Derek - many thanks again for your kind help. Curiouser and curiouser...........the controller is indeed as per the BS10 operating instructions that you've located. But on our controller there is no green light. The single bulb does glow red in Fault mode (I have forced it into that mode by turning off the gas supply to check that it illuminates) but in Run mode, it definitely doesn't illuminate at all. This is consistent with the Benimar 6000 owners manual, which makes no mention of any light for Running, but refers only to a red light if a fault is detected. So I don't think there is a green light option - the LED on our controller seems to be a single bulb unit; thus would only operate in a single colour. Seems we're stuck in our Benimar with no light on our water heater for "Running", unless the techies at Truma get back to me with an additional LED bulb workaround, or an easy substitution of my controller for a dual-light one. Not the end of the world, but a bit of a bugger if we keep forgetting to turn the water heater off when we no longer need hot water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 We had a 2002 Hobby caravan with the Truma Ultrastore water heater it had the same switch panel as yours and as you say only a red light to indicate a fault condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 I finally found (buried in a French forum) a copy of official Truma documentation for a BS10/BS14 with your design of control-panel http://www.aidecampingcar.com/forumO/viewtopic.php?p=837298 and there's no reference to the green/red indicator-light I suggested there might be earlier - just a red 'failure' light. (It's possible that the green/red light advice came from a confusion between the B10 and BS10 boilers, but I think we can now forget it.) It will be interesting to see what Truma says, but, if you want an 'in operation' light, I think you'll have to DIY it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted December 13, 2012 Author Share Posted December 13, 2012 Emails now sent to technical support at Truma German HQ, and also to Truma UK this morning, to ask: 1. What is the difference between what they label as a "B10" and BS10" water heater....because from looking at the two user manuals, installation manuals and technical specifications I can't see any. 2. Which (if any) of the more usual "two-light" Truma controllers could I install with my BS10 water heater, in place of the "one-light" controller presently in place. Response awaited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Based on the design of the different control-panels, a BS10 boiler will probably have two simple thermal switches on its water jacket, one operating at 50°C and the other at 70°C. This would match the set-up of Truma C-series 'combi' heaters. A B10 boiler, on the other hand, will have a more complex arrangement with a temperature sensor/switch able to control water heating across a graduated 30°C to 70°C range. It should be possible to identify such potential differences by comparing a complete parts-list for each of the boiler types, or even by comparing detailed technical drawings, but the differences won't be apparent from installation/operating manuals. A clue as to whether a B10 control-panel might work with a BS10 boiler would be to compare the electrical connections at the control-panel end. If a BS10 wiring-plug will connect directly to a B10 control-panel, there's a chance the latter might work. If a BS10 plug won't connect to a B10 panel, it's very doubtful the panel would function correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted December 13, 2012 Author Share Posted December 13, 2012 Truma UK have replied saying that one of their "modern" controllers can indeed be fitted in lieu of my "now obsolete" contoller, and it will drive my BS10 water heater; and the modern controller does indeed have a "two-light" run/fault indication system. I just need to fork out 42 quid to them for the actual little controller box, plus another 25 quid each for two runs of 5 metres of their special cabling with special connectors to the new controller, and then running to the pcb board at the actual heater. So, about 100 quid to get a little green LED light to tell us when the water heater is running. >:-( Well thanks but no thanks. Methinks it's instead time to find a tame electrician who can wire me in a little green LED bulb to the "live feed to heater after switch cable of our basic, red-light-only "obsolete" controller, in exchange for a few beers. Anyone from the Cold Country want to nip across to the Costa Blanca for a day to do the job for us? Failing that I think I might get the test-lamp out and have a stab at it myself............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 BGD - 2012-12-13 10:57 PM Truma UK have replied saying that one of their "modern" controllers can indeed be fitted in lieu of my "now obsolete" contoller, and it will drive my BS10 water heater; and the modern controller does indeed have a "two-light" run/fault indication system. I just need to fork out 42 quid to them for the actual little controller box, plus another 25 quid each for two runs of 5 metres of their special cabling with special connectors to the new controller, and then running to the pcb board at the actual heater. So, about 100 quid to get a little green LED light to tell us when the water heater is running. >:-( Well thanks but no thanks. Methinks it's instead time to find a tame electrician who can wire me in a little green LED bulb to the "live feed to heater after switch cable of our basic, red-light-only "obsolete" controller, in exchange for a few beers. Anyone from the Cold Country want to nip across to the Costa Blanca for a day to do the job for us? Failing that I think I might get the test-lamp out and have a stab at it myself............ Depending on whether you can get into the control panel itself, a double-illuminated on-off-on automotive rocker switch to fit the cut-out and replacing the existing switch may be an option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted December 14, 2012 Author Share Posted December 14, 2012 Robinhood - 2012-12-14 10:08 AM BGD - 2012-12-13 10:57 PM Truma UK have replied saying that one of their "modern" controllers can indeed be fitted in lieu of my "now obsolete" contoller, and it will drive my BS10 water heater; and the modern controller does indeed have a "two-light" run/fault indication system. I just need to fork out 42 quid to them for the actual little controller box, plus another 25 quid each for two runs of 5 metres of their special cabling with special connectors to the new controller, and then running to the pcb board at the actual heater. So, about 100 quid to get a little green LED light to tell us when the water heater is running. >:-( Well thanks but no thanks. Methinks it's instead time to find a tame electrician who can wire me in a little green LED bulb to the "live feed to heater after switch cable of our basic, red-light-only "obsolete" controller, in exchange for a few beers. Anyone from the Cold Country want to nip across to the Costa Blanca for a day to do the job for us? Failing that I think I might get the test-lamp out and have a stab at it myself............ Depending on whether you can get into the control panel itself, a double-illuminated on-off-on automotive rocker switch to fit the cut-out and replacing the existing switch may be an option. Many Thanks - that could be quite a neat solution! So I just mount a separate illuminated 12 volt switch on the wall of the conduit right next to the Truma water heater controller, with the live feed from the leisure battery going through that before it gets to the Controller. Then leave the controllers' inbuilt switch "On" all the time, but use the "upstream" illuminated rocker switch next to it to control whether power gets to the controller or not. As the controller is mounted on a section of "false wall" above the habitation door, which is really a sort of conduit for all the cables that drive all the systems around the MH and thus you can get into it, it'd be easy to install the extra switch neatly. Like it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 BGD - 2012-12-14 10:03 AM Robinhood - 2012-12-14 10:08 AM BGD - 2012-12-13 10:57 PM Truma UK have replied saying that one of their "modern" controllers can indeed be fitted in lieu of my "now obsolete" contoller, and it will drive my BS10 water heater; and the modern controller does indeed have a "two-light" run/fault indication system. I just need to fork out 42 quid to them for the actual little controller box, plus another 25 quid each for two runs of 5 metres of their special cabling with special connectors to the new controller, and then running to the pcb board at the actual heater. So, about 100 quid to get a little green LED light to tell us when the water heater is running. >:-( Well thanks but no thanks. Methinks it's instead time to find a tame electrician who can wire me in a little green LED bulb to the "live feed to heater after switch cable of our basic, red-light-only "obsolete" controller, in exchange for a few beers. Anyone from the Cold Country want to nip across to the Costa Blanca for a day to do the job for us? Failing that I think I might get the test-lamp out and have a stab at it myself............ Depending on whether you can get into the control panel itself, a double-illuminated on-off-on automotive rocker switch to fit the cut-out and replacing the existing switch may be an option. Many Thanks - that could be quite a neat solution! So I just mount a separate illuminated 12 volt switch on the wall of the conduit right next to the Truma water heater controller, with the live feed from the leisure battery going through that before it gets to the Controller. Then leave the controllers' inbuilt switch "On" all the time, but use the "upstream" illuminated rocker switch next to it to control whether power gets to the controller or not. As the controller is mounted on a section of "false wall" above the habitation door, which is really a sort of conduit for all the cables that drive all the systems around the MH and thus you can get into it, it'd be easy to install the extra switch neatly. Like it! If you are going direct to LB, remember an in-line fuse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 BGD - 2012-12-14 10:03 AM Robinhood - 2012-12-14 10:08 AM BGD - 2012-12-13 10:57 PM Truma UK have replied saying that one of their "modern" controllers can indeed be fitted in lieu of my "now obsolete" contoller, and it will drive my BS10 water heater; and the modern controller does indeed have a "two-light" run/fault indication system. I just need to fork out 42 quid to them for the actual little controller box, plus another 25 quid each for two runs of 5 metres of their special cabling with special connectors to the new controller, and then running to the pcb board at the actual heater. So, about 100 quid to get a little green LED light to tell us when the water heater is running. >:-( Well thanks but no thanks. Methinks it's instead time to find a tame electrician who can wire me in a little green LED bulb to the "live feed to heater after switch cable of our basic, red-light-only "obsolete" controller, in exchange for a few beers. Anyone from the Cold Country want to nip across to the Costa Blanca for a day to do the job for us? Failing that I think I might get the test-lamp out and have a stab at it myself............ Depending on whether you can get into the control panel itself, a double-illuminated on-off-on automotive rocker switch to fit the cut-out and replacing the existing switch may be an option. Many Thanks - that could be quite a neat solution! So I just mount a separate illuminated 12 volt switch on the wall of the conduit right next to the Truma water heater controller, with the live feed from the leisure battery going through that before it gets to the Controller. Then leave the controllers' inbuilt switch "On" all the time, but use the "upstream" illuminated rocker switch next to it to control whether power gets to the controller or not. As the controller is mounted on a section of "false wall" above the habitation door, which is really a sort of conduit for all the cables that drive all the systems around the MH and thus you can get into it, it'd be easy to install the extra switch neatly. Like it! ....well, I was talking about replacing the existing rocker switch, but your extension of that idea would work pretty well, if you can find the/a live feed easily. (my concern would be how the 12v supply reaches the panel, as I think it probably comes from the boiler up the control cable, which may make it difficult to identify, and/or "jump"). If you can, however, "interrupt" it, then an additional simple on/off illuminated rocker placed in circuit should do the trick, and be much easier to source than my previous suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Robinhood - 2012-12-14 11:50 AM ...my concern would be how the 12v supply reaches the panel, as I think it probably comes from the boiler up the control cable.... A Truma B-Series boiler's 12V power-supply cable is connected to terminals beneath a small cover on the top of the boiler. Also under the cover is a pcb that controls the boiler's operation and into which is plugged the boiler-end connector of the wiring harness that, at its other end, plugs into the control panel. Simplistically speaking, 12V power is fed to the boiler first and the control panel defines what the boiler does with that power. If it were wished to introduce a supplementary illuminated On/Off switch into the boiler's circuitry, the switch would need to go into the 12V power-supply before it reaches the boiler, so BGD's proposal is a non-starter I did wonder early on whether Truma had aimed the BS10/BS14 at leisure-vehicle manufacturers who used a main control panel carrying a discrete illuminated On/Off switch for boiler operation, but rejected that notion because it just seemed wrong. Frankly, I'm surprised the BS10 exists at all, as it surely can't have been much more expensive to produce the B10 and it's totally predictable that users will want an 'in operation' indicator light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted December 14, 2012 Author Share Posted December 14, 2012 Derek Uzzell - 2012-12-14 5:10 PM Robinhood - 2012-12-14 11:50 AM ...my concern would be how the 12v supply reaches the panel, as I think it probably comes from the boiler up the control cable.... A Truma B-Series boiler's 12V power-supply cable is connected to terminals beneath a small cover on the top of the boiler. Also under the cover is a pcb that controls the boiler's operation and into which is plugged the boiler-end connector of the wiring harness that, at its other end, plugs into the control panel. Simplistically speaking, 12V power is fed to the boiler first and the control panel defines what the boiler does with that power. If it were wished to introduce a supplementary illuminated On/Off switch into the boiler's circuitry, the switch would need to go into the 12V power-supply before it reaches the boiler, so BGD's proposal is a non-starter I did wonder early on whether Truma had aimed the BS10/BS14 at leisure-vehicle manufacturers who used a main control panel carrying a discrete illuminated On/Off switch for boiler operation, but rejected that notion because it just seemed wrong. Frankly, I'm surprised the BS10 exists at all, as it surely can't have been much more expensive to produce the B10 and it's totally predictable that users will want an 'in operation' indicator light. I haven't had the chance to start taking stuff to bits yet to check, but assuming you are right (and on reflection I reckon you may well be) and the 12 volt supply goes to the boiler first, and then just a signal from that goes up the boiler-controller cables to the controller; surely the additional illuminated switch is still an option. I'm thinking that all I would need to do is trace the live 12 volt supply cable back "upstream" from the boiler itself, towards the main power supply control panel for the whole MH, and put my cheapo illuminated rocker switch somewhere convenient in that cable run. Not as elegant as locating the illuminated switch right next to the boiler control panel, (unless God is REALLY on my side and the live feed from the big main MH control panel with fuses, to the boiler actually passes along behind the false wall/conduit that the little boiler control panel is screwed onto!) but a solution nonetheless.....or am I missing something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 I'd check the internals of the control panel, as I think some of the earlier ones were wired to screw terminals at that end, rather than using a "plug-in" control wire. Assuming you can determine which feed is the live 12v one (which is presumably interrupted when the switch is in the central position) then a supplemental switch near the panel may still be a possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 BGD - 2012-12-14 5:16 PM I haven't had the chance to start taking stuff to bits yet to check, but assuming you are right (and on reflection I reckon you may well be) and the 12 volt supply goes to the boiler first, and then just a signal from that goes up the boiler-controller cables to the controller; surely the additional illuminated switch is still an option. I'm thinking that all I would need to do is trace the live 12 volt supply cable back "upstream" from the boiler itself, towards the main power supply control panel for the whole MH, and put my cheapo illuminated rocker switch somewhere convenient in that cable run. Not as elegant as locating the illuminated switch right next to the boiler control panel, (unless God is REALLY on my side and the live feed from the big main MH control panel with fuses, to the boiler actually passes along behind the false wall/conduit that the little boiler control panel is screwed onto!) but a solution nonetheless.....or am I missing something? Yes, but isn't that what I said? That, if you wanted to put an extra illuminated On/Off switch into the boiler's wiring it would need to be in the boiler's power-supply cable before the cable reaches the boiler itself. Your proposal was based on the idea that the boiler's 12V power-supply goes intially to the control panel and then on to the boiler, but it doesn't. Hence that proposal won't work. Much neater though (and avoiding an extra switch) would be to explore adding a light by hacking into what's behind the front of the control panel (which goes right back to Square One) or seeing if Robin's replacement switch idea would be practicable. Whatcha mean "assuming you are right"? You should know by now that I'm infallible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted December 14, 2012 Author Share Posted December 14, 2012 I'm in Spain. Where on Earth is Fallible Derek? Is it near to Continent, or Hibition, or Bred or Sert? ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 BGD - 2012-12-14 6:29 PM I'm in Spain. Where on Earth is Fallible Derek? Is it near to Continent, or Hibition, or Bred or Sert? ;-) Fallible is a village in south-west England, close to the small town of Telligent. They are twinned (respectively) with Falible and Teligente in Spain, though I've been told (by UK A-framers) that these off-the-beaten-track Spanish communities can be difficult to find on a map and that the number of inhabitants in each is tiny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Dave Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 We have a Truma BS10 or BS14 in the Chausson and the control panel which may be aesthetically different still has the same functions a rocker switch . Up for 50c down for 70c and the middle position off with only a red fault light. No power on light / indicator at all. but this boiler talk got me thinking (i know and it hurts) i am going to fit a one shot timer relay in the 12 Volt supply to the boiler which will turn the boiler on for 1 hour and then automatically turn it off as we find an hour is just right for a couple of showers and no more forgetting to turn the boiler off. I suppose you could even fit a mechanical type microwave timer or similar in the supply so the boiler switch could be left in the desired temperature mode and the time could be adjusted as required and the added bonus of a ping when it switches off. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 I note that the 'timer' idea for a Truma BS10 boiler has come up before: http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-659075.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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