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Tyre replacement-- age related.
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userMasterW
Posted: 27 June 2020 1:21 PM
Subject: Tyre replacement-- age related.
 
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Here's an old question with a new twist. My motorhome (Hymer MLT580), owned by me from new, was first registered in March 2015 and tyre age marks are all 15/14, therefore have passed their 6th birthday. Mileage is only 14,500. Vehicle has had good spread of local and Motorway miles. Tyres are Continental Vanco Four Season 2, 235/65 R16C M+S 118/116R dual rated. Van is plated at 3880kg. There is no signs of any damage/cracking and wear is uniform across the tread. Tyres look as new. Pressures always checked before use

Here's the twist. The van is fitted with hydraulic levelling jacks and whenever the van is parked, either in use or in store, the jacks are down, thus reducing the static load on each tyre. This must amount to >75% of the tyres life.

Should I follow the replace regardless rule, or is there room for further consideration..?
userrayc
Posted: 27 June 2020 1:25 PM
Subject: RE: Tyre replacement-- age related.
 
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MasterW - 2020-06-27 1:21 PM

Here's an old question with a new twist. My motorhome (Hymer MLT580), owned by me from new, was first registered in March 2015 and tyre age marks are all 15/14, therefore have passed their 6th birthday. Mileage is only 14,500. Vehicle has had good spread of local and Motorway miles. Tyres are Continental Vanco Four Season 2, 235/65 R16C M+S 118/116R dual rated. Van is plated at 3880kg. There is no signs of any damage/cracking and wear is uniform across the tread. Tyres look as new. Pressures always checked before use

Here's the twist. The van is fitted with hydraulic levelling jacks and whenever the van is parked, either in use or in store, the jacks are down, thus reducing the static load on each tyre. This must amount to >75% of the tyres life.

Should I follow the replace regardless rule, or is there room for further consideration..?


There's always room for further consideration. What do Continental recommend? What is the rule you refer to? Is it a recommendation, a guideline or a law? Michelin for example say "After five years or more in use, your tyres should be thoroughly inspected at least once per year by a professional up to 10 years maximum "

Edited by rayc 2020-06-27 1:28 PM
usersilverback
Posted: 27 June 2020 1:39 PM
Subject: RE: Tyre replacement-- age related.
 


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make sure you check inside edge of tyres , because they can split there and you would never know, happened on my car tyres picked up at mot, as for changing thats your personal choice
jonathan
userKeithl
Posted: 27 June 2020 1:42 PM
Subject: RE: Tyre replacement-- age related.
 


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MasterW - 2020-06-27 1:21 PM
Tyres are Continental Vanco Four Season 2...

Should I follow the replace regardless rule, or is there room for further consideration..?


Again, what 'replace regardless rule'?

Continental also advice annual inspections from five years and replace at maximum ten years.

"Tyre service life recommendation

Continental is unaware of any technical data that supports a specific tyre age for removal from service. However, as with other members of the tyre and automotive industries, Continental recommends that all tyres (including spare tyres) that were manufactured more than ten (10) years previous... be replaced with new tyres,even when tyres appear to be usable from their external appearance and if the tread depth may have not reached the minimum wear out depth.
"

Quoted from page 122 of Conti Technial databook here...

https://blobs.continental-tires.com/www8/servlet/blob/85806/e0854f2c7866c64da551474b998ef8b3/download-technical-databook-data.pdf

And I replace my tyres at nine years old and sell the part worns to White Van Man to offset the cost of the new tyres.

Keith.
userdawki
Posted: 27 June 2020 3:19 PM
Subject: RE: Tyre replacement-- age related.
 
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MasterW - 2020-06-27 1:21 PM

Here's an old question with a new twist. My motorhome (Hymer MLT580), owned by me from new, was first registered in March 2015 and tyre age marks are all 15/14, therefore have passed their 6th birthday. Mileage is only 14,500. Vehicle has had good spread of local and Motorway miles. Tyres are Continental Vanco Four Season 2, 235/65 R16C M+S 118/116R dual rated. Van is plated at 3880kg. There is no signs of any damage/cracking and wear is uniform across the tread. Tyres look as new. Pressures always checked before use

Here's the twist. The van is fitted with hydraulic levelling jacks and whenever the van is parked, either in use or in store, the jacks are down, thus reducing the static load on each tyre. This must amount to >75% of the tyres life.

Should I follow the replace regardless rule, or is there room for further consideration..?


Hi I had same tyres And size as you on my van a Mercedes with same weight as you quote
Continental said they are good for 10 years
I replaced mine after nearly 11 years still with plenty of life in them and no sign of any cracking
I wouldn’t even consider changing yours a few years yet
userMasterW
Posted: 27 June 2020 3:42 PM
Subject: RE: Tyre replacement-- age related.
 
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Rule quoted from Caravanguard Insurance blog, today...

https://www.caravanguard.co.uk/news/post-lockdown-travel-checks-for-your-caravan-or-motorhome-23474/?

"Always change tyres that are more than five years old, regardless".

Yes i know its an insurance campaign but it has been written and read for as long as I have been caravanning/motorhoming (>40 years).
userKeithl
Posted: 27 June 2020 3:55 PM
Subject: RE: Tyre replacement-- age related.
 


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All very well but where do they get their advice from and do they back it up with references?

The industry body 'TyreSafe Org' advises the following...

"There is no known technical data that supports a specific tyre age for removal from service. However, in the interests of safety a number of vehicle and tyre manufacturers recommend that tyres (including spare tyres) that were manufactured more than a certain number of years previously be replaced with new tyres, even when they appear to be usable from their external appearance and the tread may not have reached the minimum wear out depth. It is recommended that any such instruction be followed. "

https://www.tyresafe.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Motorhome-leaflet-FINAL.pdf

So I will still go with Continental's advice over an insurance company's view.

Keith.
userJohn52
Posted: 27 June 2020 4:22 PM
Subject: RE: Tyre replacement-- age related.
 


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Date code on tyres is like the date code on a pack of fruit.
Its only a guide.
You can judge the condition better by examining the product, than the date code.
userBKen1
Posted: 27 June 2020 5:17 PM
Subject: RE: Tyre replacement-- age related.
 


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MasterW - 2020-06-27 4:42 PM

Rule quoted from Caravanguard Insurance blog, today...

https://www.caravanguard.co.uk/news/post-lockdown-travel-checks-for-your-caravan-or-motorhome-23474/?

"Always change tyres that are more than five years old, regardless".

Yes i know its an insurance campaign but it has been written and read for as long as I have been caravanning/motorhoming (>40 years).

Thats just related to caravans ..if you get the right motorhome spec tyre the change at 5 yrs is rubbish ...
userKeithl
Posted: 27 June 2020 6:20 PM
Subject: RE: Tyre replacement-- age related.
 


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John52 - 2020-06-27 4:22 PM

Date code on tyres is like the date code on a pack of fruit.
Its only a guide.


Sorry Peter but IMO two very different things!

The date code on the fruit is typically a date in the future with a recommendation to use by that date.

The date code on a tyre is a date in the past and is the EXACT date (to the week) when the tyre was manufactured.

Keith.
userMuswell
Posted: 27 June 2020 7:15 PM
Subject: RE: Tyre replacement-- age related.
 
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A couple of weeks ago I took my van on quite a long motorway trip and during the journey began to get vibration so I kept the speed down to avoid it. I thought a shock absorber had gone and booked it into my garage for them to check, and also change my rear tyres because although they had no cracks and plenty of tread they were getting on a bit, 8 years.

They called me back to say that because of the wear pattern they were 99% sure the tyres were breaking up and that was causing the vibration but they would put a wheel on the balancing machine to check that was the case. It was.

It was lucky I wasn't going further/faster.

The slightly annoying thing is that when I replaced the fronts during a service a few years ago at another garage I asked them to move those wheels to the back because that is where the best grip should be but they didn't and I was in a hurry to go. If they had done I would have had to replace those that had been swapped to the front anyway because the tread would have gone by now.
userMasterW
Posted: 27 June 2020 7:52 PM
Subject: RE: Tyre replacement-- age related.
 
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I am not insured with Caravanguard and also consider that engineering judgement should play a part. If a tyre manufacturer were to make a 'definite statement' regarding the age related issue we would all have a position from which to argue but of course they will not because it depends so much on maintenance, conditions of use and weather conditions.

Any insurance company that makes such a ' 5 year' statement, surely will have armed its loss adjusters with the suitable tools to refuse any payout if, as some of you have suggested ... "10 years is fine" and you unfortunately have cause to claim in a tyre related incident.

Perhaps an employee from Caravanguard could respond or maybe any suitably informed insurance employee.

My original question however, did relate to engineering judgement. if static loading can cause considerable deterioration in the life of a tyre, then use of hydraulic levelling jacks whenever the vehicle is stationary, should result in much longer tyre life.
userTeamRienza
Posted: 27 June 2020 8:22 PM
Subject: RE: Tyre replacement-- age related.
 
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I should have thought that UV degradation of sidewalls over time was a bigger concern than static loading, although your thoughts are obviously sensible.

I read recently an item that indicated that ‘flat spots’ on static tyres can rectify themselves assuming the static time was not too long.

I think it was on the Oponeo website which carries many interesting articles on tyres. Well worth a browse.

Davy
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 28 June 2020 9:08 AM
Subject: RE: Tyre replacement-- age related.
 


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‘Flat-spotting’ of motorhome tyres has been mentioned here many times over the years, most recently in April 2020.

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Covo-storage/54959/

Tyre flat-spotting can occur very quickly. I remember reading in the 1990s a road test of a Vauxhall Lotus Carlton that had very wide low-profile tyres. The reviewer said that, after an overnight stay in a French hotel, when the car was driven the following morning the tyres could be heard ‘flapping’ until they had warmed up and the temporary flat-spotting had disappeared.

However, this is not the sort of flat-spotting that may occur when a motorhome is out of use for an extended period and is not moved at all, when considerable weight will be concentrated on a few square centimetres of tyre-tread area. Then, if significant flat-spotting does develop, it can be expected that this will not cure itself when the motorhome is eventually driven as the tyre’s construction will have become damaged.

Obviously, if - by using levelling jacks - MasterW is taking a lot of his motorhome’s weight off its tyres for >75% of the time, that must reduce the likelihood of flat-spotting damage. But flat-spotting is just one of the things that can reduce a tyre’s lifespan (eg. using unsuitable inflation pressures, exposure to high levels of UV) and I can’t see any way it would be possible to calculate how much additional life-expection MasterW’s ‘jacking’ will gain compared with leaving the motorhome sat on its tyres.

My Rapido is also 2015-vintage. I removed its wheels in March this year and checked the tyres’ condition very carefully. The Rapido was driven about 30 miles in March and has been unused since, with me moving it occasionally to guard against flat-spotting. Based on the up-to-now wear rate, two of the present tyres definitely won’t reach 10 years-old and, if I replace those two tyres (say) next year, I might decide to replace all four. Even if I had the capability to use MasterW’s ‘jacking’ ploy, I’d probably not do anything different.

Continental’s recommendation for tyre euthanasia at Age 10 seems reasonable to me. The number is easily remembered and - if there is to be an advised tyre ‘age limit’ - if 10 years is considered too short , what should that limit be instead?
userMasterW
Posted: 28 June 2020 10:39 AM
Subject: RE: Tyre replacement-- age related.
 
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As well as hydraulic jacks, I also have the luxury of enclosed storage in a large barn, so can also take UV consideration into the decision but none of this 'engineering' judgement is worth a jot if insurance companies make "replace over 5 years old regardless' statements. The only definitive way of ensuring cover remains in place is to ask ones insurance company the direct question; anybody tried this approach...?
userKeithl
Posted: 28 June 2020 10:44 AM
Subject: RE: Tyre replacement-- age related.
 


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MasterW - 2020-06-28 10:39 AM

As well as hydraulic jacks, I also have the luxury of enclosed storage in a large barn, so can also take UV consideration into the decision but none of this 'engineering' judgement is worth a jot if insurance companies make "replace over 5 years old regardless' statements. The only definitive way of ensuring cover remains in place is to ask ones insurance company the direct question; anybody tried this approach...?


For that to stand up in court they would have to make it a condition of the insurance when you take out the policy, a bit like demanding a tracker or alarm be fitted in certain circumstances.

They cannot later refuse a claim on the basis of a condition they had not made you aware of at the inception of the policy.

And I will still take Continental's advise over the recommendation of the insurance company until they at least make it a condition I have to sign in to.

Keith.
userMuswell
Posted: 28 June 2020 10:55 AM
Subject: RE: Tyre replacement-- age related.
 
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Derek Uzzell - 2020-06-28 9:08 AM


Continental’s recommendation for tyre euthanasia at Age 10 seems reasonable to me. The number is easily remembered and - if there is to be an advised tyre ‘age limit’ - if 10 years is considered too short , what should that limit be instead?


Based on my recent experience of Hankooks which were on since first registration in July 2011 I would not go that long. The worrying thing in my view is that the tyres looked perfectly fine and for the first hour at 70 there was no hint of a problem while four hours later anything above 55 caused violent vibration.

Edited by Muswell 2020-06-28 10:56 AM
userwitzend
Posted: 28 June 2020 11:13 AM
Subject: RE: Tyre replacement-- age related.
 


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Derek Uzzell - 2020-06-28 9:08 AM
Continental’s recommendation for tyre euthanasia at Age 10 seems reasonable to me. The number is easily remembered and - if there is to be an advised tyre ‘age limit’ - if 10 years is considered too short , what should that limit be instead?


My wifes grandfather inherited a US army lorry just after D day The chassie and rear axle is still in use by his grandsons as a dump trailer with the original tyres
userKeithl
Posted: 28 June 2020 11:14 AM
Subject: RE: Tyre replacement-- age related.
 


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Muswell - 2020-06-28 10:55 AM
Based on my recent experience of Hankooks which were on since first registration in July 2011 I would not go that long. The worrying thing in my view is that the tyres looked perfectly fine and for the first hour at 70 there was no hint of a problem while four hours later anything above 55 caused violent vibration.


Hankook don't seem to know whether to recommend replacement at six years or ten years...

"Tyre service life recommendation

It is difficult to predict to an accurate degree the service life of a tyre which is strongly influenced on how the tyre has been stored, the service it has been subjected to and how it has been maintained.

Hankook recommend: (including spare tyres)
• Any tyres in service for more than 10 years from the date of manufacture are to be replaced with new tyres, even if the tyres general appearance is usable and the tread depth has not reached the legal minimum wear limit depth of 1.6 mm.
• In case of new tyres, any tyres more than 6 years old from the date of manufacture should be replaced with new tyres. (Some vehicle manufacturers may specify this time limit within the vehicle's manual)
"

Page 24 here...

https://www.hankooktire.com/uk/files/2019-20_Safety_Guideline_Warranty_Manual.pdf

Keith.
userDeneb
Posted: 28 June 2020 11:50 AM
Subject: RE: Tyre replacement-- age related.
 
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Keithl - 2020-06-28 11:14 AM

Hankook don't seem to know whether to recommend replacement at six years or ten years...



They clearly do. What they are saying is that any tyre which has been in service for more than 10 years should be replaced irrespective of it's apparent condition.

They also recommend that any new tyre that has remained unused for a period of more than 6 years from its date of manufacture (which would include spare tyres that have never been fitted to the vehicle or unused tyres in storage) should also be replaced.

Although I didn't keep all of my tyre manuals when I retired (I do still have the textbook from a technical tyre course, which is A4 sized and getting on for 3 inches thick) Hankooks' recommendations are compatible with general industry guidance.

The bottom line - modern tyres are not just made of "rubber", they are manufactured from numerous different materials and compounds which all age naturally to different degrees from the date of manufacture. The rate of ageing of various different materials used in a tyre is not a constant, and can differ according to the usage (or lack thereof) of the tyre, its loading, hot or cold ambient temperatures as well as the degrees of heat sustained during use, exposure to sunlight, ozone, cleaning chemicals, abrasives and other substances picked up from the road surface, etc. All of these compromise the original performance and affect the integrity of the tyre to a greater or lesser extent, depending on the amount of exposure, patterns and type of use (or lack of) etc.

Since the signs of the type of damage or deterioration that eventually lead to age related failure of the tyre can often only be seen inside the carcass and not externally, until it may be too late, it is generally accepted that any tyre which has been in use for more than 10 years should be replaced as a matter of safety, irrespective of its external appearance, amount of tread remaining, etc. At least one manufacturer also recommended that if it was necessary to continue to use a tyre beyond that period, it should be removed from its wheel at least once a year and thoroughly inspected by a qualified technician - not your average tyre fitter, who would likely have no idea what to look for and would in any case be more interested in selling you a new tyre, especially having gone to the trouble of removing it from the wheel.

My opinion - your tyres are the only contact between your vehicle and the road, and are crucial to the steering, braking, handling and load capability of the vehicle. Why would you want to cut corners or compromise safety for the sake of what amounts to pennies per week over the lifetime of an average tyre? If your vehicle was to be involved in a serious collision and the failure of a tyre more than 10 years old was determined to be a contributory factor, you could at least be looking at a prosecution for using a tyre that was not maintained in such a condition as to be fit for use, with the manufacturer's replacement recommendation and evidence of the nature of and reason for failure supporting the action, or more seriously anything up to the offence of causing death by dangerous driving based solely on the condition of the vehicle.
userEJB
Posted: 28 June 2020 12:44 PM
Subject: RE: Tyre replacement-- age related.
 
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I change at 6 years ...regardless of mileage....normally 3 to 5K a year.
userflicka
Posted: 28 June 2020 12:45 PM
Subject: RE: Tyre replacement-- age related.
 


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I've just replaced 4 tyres (Continental Vanco Camper) at 9 years from manufacture date.
Rear nearside was an advisory on last MOT as needing to be checked "periodically" ?
I haven't changed the spare, as it remains unused stored in the Motorhome's garage with a cover. It shows no signs of aging, cracking, etc., so I'm happy to keep it as it would only be used for a limited period.
I put off changing at the back end of last year, knowing that if changed then they would spend most of their 1st few months stood idle.
userstevec176
Posted: 29 June 2020 2:14 PM
Subject: RE: Tyre replacement-- age related.
 


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Well that all seems as clear as mud, I'm still no wiser whether I should change at 5, 6 or 10 so where does the 5 year recommendation that I read about in the magazines come from?
I contacted Comfort insurance to check if they have any stipulations and they replied,

The policy terms are that the vehicle must be road legal so you would only need to replace the tyres when they are no longer road worthy/road legal.

There’s nothing to state that they must be replaced after a certain amount of years under the policy.

So, as far as they are concerned there is no age limit and as long as the tyres are road legal you don't need to change them.

userBruceM
Posted: 29 June 2020 2:44 PM
Subject: RE: Tyre replacement-- age related.
 
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No one can tell you, you’ll have to decide for yourself. It depends on your motivation. If it’s to be road legal then unless you fail the MOT inspection then you’re ok. If you wish to remain reasonably safe then changing at 10 years meets my understanding of tyre manufacturers recommendations. If you want to be super safe then change every 5 years, this will please Kwik-Fit etc. It’s absolutely your call.
userDeneb
Posted: 29 June 2020 3:16 PM
Subject: RE: Tyre replacement-- age related.
 
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As Bruce says, no one can give you a single accurate figure to cover all circumstances. To be safe (bearing in mind that no guidance can be a 100 per cent guarantee) tyre manufacturers are generally agreed that tyres in normal use should be changed at the most 10 years from the date of manufacture. But tyres may age and deteriorate more quickly if used irregularly, if at all, which is why for instance Hankook as quoted above suggest replacement at 6 years for an unused tyre, and Caravanguard suggest 5 years for a leisure vehicle tyre which has probably spent as much if not more time unused but probably under load and in less than ideal storage conditions.

None of this is an instruction that you must follow. It is guidance for you to note and act upon as you wish. But, the owner and driver (if different) are both wholly responsible for the condition of a motor vehicle and equally liable if it is not considered to be suitably maintained. Other sources may give you advice, but they cannot ultimately absolve you of your responsibilities.
userMuswell
Posted: 29 June 2020 6:29 PM
Subject: RE: Tyre replacement-- age related.
 
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BruceM - 2020-06-29 2:44 PM

No one can tell you, you’ll have to decide for yourself. It depends on your motivation. If it’s to be road legal then unless you fail the MOT inspection then you’re ok. If you wish to remain reasonably safe then changing at 10 years meets my understanding of tyre manufacturers recommendations. If you want to be super safe then change every 5 years, this will please Kwik-Fit etc. It’s absolutely your call.


My tyres started to fail 8 days after passing the MOT.
userYorkyrunner
Posted: 29 June 2020 8:50 PM
Subject: RE: Tyre replacement-- age related.
 
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Sat out the other day in the heatwave under shade( Remember that brief interlude with summer) when there was a terrific bang. Took a few minutes to realise it was the spare tyre on my garden trailer had blown out..Its parked on drive next to house 5 yards away. There is a hole big enough almost to get my fist in on the tread.. No sign of wear and tear, good tread pattern and only checked pressurest with the other s a couple of weeks ago.However it was in full sun. The tread was steel braced as well. When I thought about the possible age I bought the trailer 25 years ago and its on the original tyres, I tend to use it only occasionally but it had been used on a few tip runs just lately. So looking at getting a full tyre change anytime soon. Just counting blessing it happened on drive and no one near when it when it burst.
usersteve hill
Posted: 29 June 2020 9:12 PM
Subject: RE: Tyre replacement-- age related.
 
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Sorry but I have to ask one thing, have you had a tyre blow on the van. The front is a nightmare and the rear can be scary.
Tyres can literally smash through most of the floor on a C class van. After years paying attention to the tyres but still getting blow outs even from new tyres that are faulty, its a must, they don't just go flat, they can completely delaminate. Yes it is expensive, but the risks are huge to life and the van, trust me just change them, after all its better to sleep at night for the sake of saving a year or two ie the price of just one tyre...
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