markov Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 We are thinking of buying a motorhome in Germany or France, due to the difference in price compared to the cost of German motorhomes in the UK, and our wish to have a LHD vehicle. Does anyone know of what VAT is due in Germany/France, and what is due in the UK? And does this differ from buying new & buying used (whether from a dealer or privately?) We intend to register the motorhome in the UK. Thanks for any help on this - I've trawled the internet without much luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 VAT in Germany is currently 19% compared with our 20%, but I think importing a new MH will cause HMRC to charge you the rest of the 20% anyway. Not sure what you have to do to make sure you don;t get charged VAT twice but there will be a way. Used MHs are a different matter and unless you buy one on which German VAT is recoverable, it's just a question of proving that it was VAT-paid in Germany. DVLA will not let you register an imported vehicle in UK until HMRC have confirmed that any UK VAT which is due has been paid and there is a process for this. Since DVLA closed the Local Offices centralised everything it is apparenbtly taking eight or even ten weeks to do what used to take only three days. From what I've read on here it is possible to do it all yourself but maybe you should at least consider getting a professional lke Nick Legg of Bundesvan to do it for you. He will collect it from Germany, do all the registration stuff and deliver to your door for £1,500 + VAT, which I think is good value. Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markov Posted September 28, 2014 Author Share Posted September 28, 2014 Thanks for such a detailed and prompt reply, Stuart - Much appreciated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 depends on new or used. if used and 6 months old and has covered over 6000 miles, no Vat issues. dealer will give you their VAT number and you just give this to HMRI on form. new vehicles are different from goods when the VAT liable in country you buy it. (I am currently buying a new e bike from Germany so pay local vat @19%) VAT on a vehicle due from country you are importing it to. So a new vehicle liable to 20% VAT rate in UK. Some German dealers more experienced with exporting than others....They just might let you export without paying German VAT. If not you will have to pay the German VAT and reclaim it when you pay the UK VAT. Dealer a few of us allows this, He also does the compliance changes (speedo/headlights/ fog light at a cost). This simplifies registration when you try to register it here... Have fun! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markov Posted September 28, 2014 Author Share Posted September 28, 2014 Thanks Judge - We'll Try :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 markov - 2014-09-28 2:46 PM Thanks Judge - We'll Try :-| Your not alone many of us do it, really simpler than it first appears...don't be put off the far cheaper DIY route it really is pretty straightforward. Have a look at some of the earlier importing threads.....When you identify what your actually after, new or used, what model etc... please post back ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 Information on importing a vehicle can be found here https://www.gov.uk/importing-vehicles-into-the-uk/overview and you can can order a ‘vehicle import pack’ from the DVLA using the link shown on that webpage. Assuming that a new motorhome is involved, HMRC will charge the UK’s current 20% VAT rate based on the vehicle’s ex-VAT sale-price. As has been mentioned, German dealerships may, or may not, agree to sell a motorhome to be exported without charging the buyer German VAT (currently 19%). As JudgeMental says, if VAT is demanded by a German dealer, the buyer will need to pay the dealer, then pay HMRC 20% VAT and, having received proof that HMRC has been paid, reclaim from the German the 19% VAT that was originally paid. (This is what happened when I imported a new LHD motorhome from Germany in 2005.) A French dealership I spoke to recently would have sold me a new motorhome ex-VAT (French VAT is currently 20%) and, after paying 20% VAT to HMRC, I would have needed to send proof of that payment to the French dealership to keep their VAT records straight. Obtaining insurance cover for an imported motorhome prior to its registration in the UK continues to be problematical, particularly if a buyer chooses to drive the vehicle from the ‘foreign’ point-of-sale to its destination in the UK. Purchasing a motorhome in Germany will allow the vehicle to be temporarily registered there and for 3rd-party insurance cover to be acquired. Purchasing a motorhome in France will not. (I also understand that UK insurance suppliers are more reluctant than previously to offer insurance on imported motorhomes that have yet to be UK-registered.) Various methods have been suggested to minimise ‘uninsured’ and ‘legal’ risks, but if a buyer chooses to drive the vehicle home, it’s hard to see how contravening UK motoring regulations can be avoided or how insurance for the vehicle on the trip home can cover accidental-damage risks. Calculating ‘price savings’ needs care. I’m planning to buy a LHD Rapido motorhome, but I shall do it through a UK dealership. I’ve researched thoroughly what the likely cost would be if I bought the vehicle abroad and concluded that it would not be worth while. ‘Continental’ prices for new Rapidos are not sufficiently below UK prices to justify me buying abroad and importing the vehicle myself given the hassle and risks that I know are involved. This conclusion, of course, may not be valid for other makes of motorhome, or if a buyer is prepared to ignore the risks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markov Posted September 28, 2014 Author Share Posted September 28, 2014 Thanks for spending so much time explaining the situation in each country and to such a degree, Derek. I'll certainly need to take a close look at the exact figures, but with German motorhomes in Germany being less in Euros than the English dealers charge in Pounds (and the current Pound-Euro conversion being so favourable at the moment) my 'basic' calculations suggest that I'll be better-off buying from Germany. I really appreciate the information about France - no wonder one hears about less importing from there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 All risk manageable and often overstated by nervous naysayers.....There is always a cost work around *-) You also need to factor in the negotiable discounts on top of the more obvious savings. These can be substantial, likewise on extras .... (^) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 JudgeMental - 2014-09-28 5:12 PM All risk manageable and often overstated by nervous naysayers.....There is always a cost work around *-) You also need to factor in the negotiable discounts on top of the more obvious savings. These can be substantial, likewise on extras .... (^) Of course there are 'work arounds’ when it comes to minimising the risks involved in motorhome importing. For example, to avoid potential insurance and/or UK motoring legality issues one might choose to appoint an agent (StuartO mentions Bundesvan) to import and UK-register the vehicle on one’s behalf. But that will cost money and the cost should be factored into the purchasing decision-making. These are some 2014 importing-related forum discussions http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Advice-on-importing-/35949/ http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Initial-Insurance-cover-on-imported-motorhome/34991/ http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Importing-new-motorhome-from-Europe/34962/ If markov chooses to buy a motorhome abroad, that decision is unlikely to affect anyone participating on this forum. If he is persuaded by your evangelism that the process is “...really simpler than it first appears...” that’s up to him, but I believe the opposite is true. I’m not a "nervous naysayer" when it comes to motorhome importing, but I’m certainly not blind to the risks involved in the ‘self importing’ process and I’m not prepared to take them myself. There are other forum members who have imported motorhomes who probably feel the same as they have chosen to pay Bundesvan to act as an intermediary. In 2004 I began to consider importing a motorhome. Sterling was very strong against the euro then and it was soon evident that buying abroad an LHD version of the Hobby model I wanted could be a lot cheaper than buying through the (then) sole Hobby UK agency. At that time Mel Eastburn (who had imported motorhomes himself) offered a guide to the procedures involved. This document was 8 pages long and covered potential disdavantages as well potential advantages. Mel also provided country-specific fact-sheets with the Germany one being a further 2 pages in length. Since Mel’s death his guide has become outdated, but the pros and cons haven’t altered and the overall process has, in fact, become more complicated. It makes no difference to me what markov decides about motorhome importing, any more than it will make any difference to other forum members what I decide. But it would be wise for anyone considering doing this to give some thought to the implications and not merely to concentrate on price comparisons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 There you go insinuating i'm cavalier again when 1000's do this every year.....Your main concern seems to be driving a fully insured vehicle from port to your home address or a MOT test station for VCA test (if you have had the foresight to have had changes done in advance) all legal. I can assure you police have more to worry about then the likes of us law abiding citizens driving fully insured vehicles still think you are obsessed in misinterpreting the law...You just have to look on other more informed import forums, where there are examples of being stopped by police and being left to continue on their journeys. There are 3 Rapido dealers in Belgium that would probably drive it to your front door on trade plates if necessary. By not doing the negotiating yourself and leaving it to an agent your throwing away money, surely the only reason we personally import in the first place is to save money. Fine if your not interested but why contribute to an import thread if so opposed to it!lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 OK.......for the nervous. Just got a quote from dealer a few of us used in Dulmen (under 4 hrs drive from Calais) for a delivery to an imaginary Birmingham...Remember you wont need the 150-250€ export plates/insurance with this service. "Hello Eddie, Generally no Problem, if it is possible to let it drive on his own wheels. Then the costs would be around: 150€ for Fuel to Birmingham, 1 Driver 12h to Birmingham, 9-15 hours back with train 210€-270€, Train Ticket back (can’t find a price but should be around 200€) so around 600€ would be possible. Mit freundlichen Grüßen" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 That's a cheap way to get a vehicle delivered to UK, but that doesn't make it the only way or the right way for everyone, does it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 If anyone is that worried get it transported, I know someone who had a Carthago delivered from Bravaria to the South East £1500 door to door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 JudgeMental - 2014-09-29 9:58 AM There you go insinuating i'm cavalier again when 1000's do this every year.....Your main concern seems to be driving a fully insured vehicle from port to your home address or a MOT test station for VCA test (if you have had the foresight to have had changes done in advance) all legal. I can assure you police have more to worry about then the likes of us law abiding citizens driving fully insured vehicles still think you are obsessed in misinterpreting the law...You just have to look on other more informed import forums, where there are examples of being stopped by police and being left to continue on their journeys. There are 3 Rapido dealers in Belgium that would probably drive it to your front door on trade plates if necessary. By not doing the negotiating yourself and leaving it to an agent your throwing away money, surely the only reason we personally import in the first place is to save money. Fine if your not interested but why contribute to an import thread if so opposed to it!lol My wish is that people (like markov) who are unfamiliar with importing a motorhome from abroad become properly aware of what the process entails and what the potential pitfalls are. It’s as simple as that. I don’t believe you are any more clued-up about the procedures involved than I am. The positives of buying abroad should be self-evident, and because I’m highlighting out potential negatives does not mean I’m opposed to the practice. Having imported a motorhome in 2005, when I was able to obtain ‘comprehensive’ insurance from the German dealership to my home, when no compliancy technical inspections were being made and when there were local DVLA offices to provide advice and assistance, I’m well aware that the procedure is now more complicated. Given that I’m not oblivious to the potential risks involved, if I can obtain the new motorhome I want from a UK dealership at a price that approaches what it would cost me if I imported it from abroad myself (or had it imported via an agent) it would surely be foolish not to do so. Don’t try to convince me that what I’m choosing to do is somehow wrong: I’m not interested in your arguments. I’ve ‘self-imported’ in the past and I’m not going to do it again. If you feel a need to convert markov that’s your business: i’m just trying to provide a balanced view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 Well said Derek; JM's inability to see that there can be valid opinions other than his own does get a bit wearing sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 Would you trust the opinion of someone who has been happily switching off his motorhome’s traction-control system in the misguided belief that he was switching it on? (lol-bleeding-lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 I've self imported many times over many years like 1000's of others...The perceived risk minimal, and your choice, what do I care where you buy a van.That you worry about being stopped in UK driving a fully insured vehicle plain daft, what will they do exactly? look at paperwork and let you continue seems to be the consensus. But again, risk of being stopped at all, small to non existent, whereas you imagine what? your pride and joy being seized and crushed - the full weight of the law coming down on you......its daft That you also don't trust yourself to drive a few hours to Calais on export plates/3rd party cover says more about you then me....and again easily managed at a cost.. I worked in risk assessment before retiring and resent your implications that I and 1000's of self importers are cavalier....Its a far easier process then you imagine. The fun and games start when you get it home with the DVLA but this applies to vans bought here as well. On top of the 1.27 exchange rate difference, can also negotiate a possible 17% discount on a CB, have explained how to do this before. ( Visit a German show, talk to say, 7 dealers, choose ones that offer best deal). Savings less on a panel van but still substantial, I have no interest in RHD campers and saved bundles importing latest van in February.....Why would so many bother otherwise..... Edit: I see now it getting personal..Shame on the pair of you...Stuart your a big mothed know nothing buffoon..that often compounds your stupidity and lack of knowledge on here.....Derek you surprise me..that plain nasty and a lie others have said likewise re traction button Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 Mark asked about the the VAT liabilities on an imported vehicle not on the pro's & cons of self importing. The VAT question has been answered, as for importing it's easy straight forward I've just imported my second van both new dealer supplied VAT free so I just had to pay the UK VAT. I have brought both vans in Belgium I got a better deal than I could get in Germany and the dealer drove the van to the port thus avoiding any insurance problems. DVLA is a bit of a pain these days as you have to do everything by post took me 31 days to get the last van registered from bringing it into the country, but that is DVLA nothing to do with importing my mates UK brought Carthago registration was delayed by DVLA had to wait 3 weeks past hand over date to get it registered. Although Derek is trying to be helpful he is overstating the negatives, it really is not that hard buying abroad and bringing a van back and it's far easier to deal with Continental dealers they are more straight forward and up front that the wide boy car sales type we have to put up with in the UK. Buying privately in the Germany is safer than in the UK, they have a 2 part registration document that their bank retains one section, they will only part with it if the car is fully paid for (no outstanding finance) not sure of exact details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markov Posted September 30, 2014 Author Share Posted September 30, 2014 Thanks to all who've kindly taken time and effort to answer my query. I'm so sorry that the thread ended up getting a little bitter between some of my 'advisors' - especially if anyone felt upset by some of the posts; but it is good as a newbie to hear all sides of the story! I went to Lincoln last week to the show and was really impressed with how many motorhomers and traders were willing to help us and answer what must have been really basic questions that they'd answered 100's of times before... What a lovely bunch of people you all are! Kind regards, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 A lot of know it all old fogies on here with little practical experience.. As you probably know the older you get the more cautious you become, this overrides rational thought. Spend most of their time with their heads in cyberspace or up their own backsides worrying about nothing……You can also see from previous snide remarks, they have little manners, they simply take advantage of the cloak that internet anonymity offers UK not called Treasure Island for nothing. We are ripped off from the cradle to the grave on anything you care to mention. Campers just the tip of the iceberg…..I buy as much as I can in Europe, as prices fairer by a substantial amount. Imported my first in 1994, I have imported 9 in total. First bad experience this year in Feb with DVLA, due to their shutting local offices, centralising to Swansea. Situation should be better now. If you’re after a CB Belgium a better bet in case there are issue’s, its only an hour or two from Calais and you can pop in when going on holiday for your yearly checks. fridges, heating etc..all the portentally troubling parts, covered by Europe wide warranty anyway, chassis servicing likewise. If a panel van, less to go wrong so Germany fine, but I got as good a price on my latest van in Belgium as Germany but they could not supply the fancy swing out bike rack, so Germany it was... So pick a model, do your math and work out if it’s right for you! 1000’s think it is….Come back if you need more help. Plenty of less jaundiced info on importing on other forums….Good luck ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Had Enough Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 JudgeMental - 2014-10-02 11:02 AM A lot of know it all old fogies on here with little practical experience.. As you probably know the older you get the more cautious you become, this overrides rational thought. Spend most of their time with their heads in cyberspace or up their own backsides worrying about nothing……You can also see from previous snide remarks, they have little manners, they simply take advantage of the cloak that internet anonymity offers UK not called Treasure Island for nothing. We are ripped off from the cradle to the grave on anything you care to mention. Campers just the tip of the iceberg…..I buy as much as I can in Europe, as prices fairer by a substantial amount. I'm sorry Eddie but that is totally unfair, especially if you're aiming at Derek Uzzell, a knowledgeable and intelligent man who has done nothing but put a balanced view as opposed to your rather evangelical attitudes to anything that you favour, whether it's PVCs or importing. And he's just done his sums and found that importing for him isn't worth it. And as for the British being ripped off over everything you really are talking utter b*ll*cks. Our cost of living and prices compare very favourably to other similar European countries. I'm sure you've been to Scandinavia? Anyone with any knowledge of tax, VAT rates and prices in general in some of those countries wouldn't be talking about British Treasure Island. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 Give me a break Frank,evangelical..hardly...that's just another underhand insult, trying to insinuate i'm foolhardy. Can assure you I'm far from it.What do I care what others choose to do!lol. When a topic I have experience in and can help with crops up I answer OK *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 And if anyone suggest, however moderately, that JM's opinions are simply his opinions and other people might have different ones, he often seems to resort to outspoken (and often outrageous) personal insults. Fortunately sometimes he posts some useful information; it's just a pity that the nasty outbursts undermine the overall quality of his contributions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Had Enough Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 JudgeMental - 2014-10-02 12:40 PM Give me a break Frank,evangelical..hardly...that's just another underhand insult, trying to insinuate i'm foolhardy. Can assure you I'm far from it.What do I care what others choose to do!lol. When a topic I have experience in and can help with crops up I answer OK *-) No, I'm not saying you're foolhardy and have never even hinted at that. I'm saying that you tend to get very evangelical about your choices, that's all. Importing isn't for everyone, and a part of the so-called huge savings melt away when you really add up all the add-on costs and the lower used value in say five years time. Also we always hear about UK sticker prices but ask that dealer for a cash deal as you do with your Germans and they will always come down in my experience. You may still save money doing it your way, I don't doubt that, but many people aren't interested and would rather pay more for the convenience of buying locally and the knowledge that if there are any problems the dealer isn't over the Channel. Derek Uzzell has carefully researched his latest possible purchase and has concluded that for him he's better off buying in Britain. And he's a man who has imported previously and is meticulous in his investigations. I don't want to fall out with you about this. I consider you one of the good guys on here, but you were out of line I'm afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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