Warranty Problems?

[Derek Uzzell]

There have been recent forum-postings about the correct engine-oil to use and motorhome servicing while under warranty by a base-vehicle manufacturer's main agent or by an independent garage.

 

The "Honest John" section of last Saturday's Telegraph newspaper included a letter from B.W. from Gateshead. This read as follows:

 

"I was picking my car up from a Ford service and heard a man arguing over his two-year-old Focus. His engine had failed and, despite the car having 12 months left on its warranty, Ford would not replace it. He had a service book to prove he had taken his car in for servicing, yet Ford would not accept that and asked him for a line-by-line invoice so they could check that the grade of oil used in each service satisfied their service requirements. His argument of "but a Ford dealer carried this out, of course it was to your standards" was not convincing enough."

 

The Honest John reply was:

 

"Ford has had a number of engine failures where the wrong (not 5W-30) oil has been used, usually by independent garages, so the demand is perfectly fair. Why should Ford be liable for a franchised dealer's negligence? I was involved in a case where the independent did prove it had used the correct 5W-30 oil and Ford coughed up."

 

Forum members will know that, in order to maintain the validity of a motorhome's base-vehicle warranty, servicing within the warranty period must be carried out using the manufacturer's genuine branded parts and fluids, or using parts and fluids that match the quality of the genuine articles. Should a warranty-claim be made, it's also normal for original invoices to be demanded to confirm this has been done.

 

My Ford Transit-based Hobby motorhome has been serviced from new by an independent garage. I know that genuine Ford parts have been used a) because I've always instructed the garage to use them and b) because the parts involved (filters) are visibly Ford-branded. I also know that the correct specification of oil has been used because I supply the oil myself.

 

However, although the service booklet (in German in my Hobby's case) has been 'ticked' to indicate genuine Ford parts have been fitted, the service invoices do not confirm this - they just describe the parts and give the prices. Naturally enough, because I've provided the oil, there is nothing on the invoices to confirm what make/viscosity it was.

 

Should the Hobby's motor have failed shortly after the first 12 months service, I expect the garage would have been able to provide documentation showing that the parts used for the service were genuine Ford, but I've no idea how long such documentation is normally retained. If a vehicle has a problem in month 35 of a 3-year warranty and 'line-by-line' invoices were demanded to support a warranty claim and to confirm that correct specification parts/oil have been used, it may prove difficult to obtain the required proof retrospectively, particularly if the vehicle has been serviced by an independent garage.

[handyman]

if the service interval is yearly, and you get this done 1 year after you register you brand new van, you actually have serviced it outwith the correct interval, as it was sold to the motorhome manufacturer many months before this date................ie, i bet they could get out of doing certain warranty work due to this??

[Usinmyknaus]

Although savings can be made by switching to independents during the warranty period I have always taken a precautionary approach and stuck with main-dealer servicing until the warranty expires on every new or nearly new vehicle I have bought. On a balance of risks I take the view that the potential cost of a major fault being rejected by the manufacturer outweighs any saving during the warranty period. Any saving effectively becomes the premium one would pay to "self-insure" the risk.

 

My favoured mechanic, who does all the work on my out-of warranty vehicles tells me that oil is especially critical with Ford Zetec engines and I suppose that was the issue with the Focus in the example given in the Telegraph. He says that using the wrong (i.e. non Ford Branded 5W30) oil can dramatically shorten engine life and that this is well known in the trade.

 

I have always thought that laudable though the EU's action to break the monopoly of main dealer servicing networks was, in taking advantage of the freedom to go non franchise one has to ask oneself the Russian-roulette style question from "Dirty Harry" - "Do you feel lucky?" Ultimately the decision is all down to individual appetite for risk.

 

Bob

[Usinmyknaus]

Handyman's point is very important and Newbies should please take note. Within weeks of collecting my new - and first - van I saw a similar post on this forum and visited a Renault dealer to check their computer system. I found that the warranty clock had been started in Germany in early April 07 wheras I collected the van from my UK supplier in mid-June. The Renault dealer told me that if I had failed to have the first service done by early May 08, the warranty would have been voided. Without the warning on this forum I could easily have left that service until June 08.

 

Bob

[Tony Jones]

The warranty is supposed to start from first registration? that's what my Ford dealer told me - and in fact, because they were having trouble confirming it from the Ford database, they asked me to take my V5 in for them to photocopy, to ensure that my warranty was correctly dated.

So surely service intervals will be on the same basis?

[Derek Uzzell]

Bob:

 

The base-vehicle warranty start-date has been a bone of contention for motorhomes as long as I can remember.

 

Ford's Transit warranty "starts on the day the vehicle is delivered to the first retail or fleet customer" - it doesn't begin when Ford's factory in Turkey supplies Hobby, Hymer, Auto-Sleepers, etc. with a Transit chassis to convert into a motorhome.

 

I recall a letter in a French motorhome magazine where the writer complained that his new motorhome's base-vehicle warranty was recorded as beginning several months before he had purchased the vehicle. He was advised by the magazine that motorhome base-vehicle warranties began when the chassis was acquired by the converter, not when the converted vehicle was eventually sold.

 

In the next issue of the magazine an apology was issued, admitting that the original advice had been wrong and emphasising that "of course" a motorhome's base-vehicle warranty should commence when the converted vehicle was sold retail for the first time.

 

Renault-based motorhomes seem particularly prone to PWS (Premature Warranty Syndrome). Although PWS happens with other makes, it seems to be much harder to get Renault to revise the warranty start-date to when the finished motorhome is sold.

 

It seems to me that, as long as motorhome buyers are prepared to accept PWS as being normal or acceptable, the practice is going to continue indefinitely.

[Usinmyknaus]

Hi Derek,

 

Thanks for that. I have taken the issue up with 2 Renault dealers and been told the same thing - that the warranty started when the PDI was done in Germany. They were just quoting from the same computer system of course. If I have a problem between April 09 and June 09 I would contest it with Renault and the information you gave regarding the French issue would be very useful to quote.

 

Some time ago there was a thread on here regarding extending the 2 year warranty on European conversions to the 3 year UK Renault warranty. I contacted Renault UK by phone to enquire about that but they were not very helpful. I intend to write to them formally asking for the extension and will research that earlier thread before doing so.

 

Bob

 

 

[Guest JudgeMental]

It took me 6 months to get my warranty from when I bought the van. When you get a van best visit or call local chassis service agent and register it and see what appears on there system....Then you have to get on to motorhone manufacturer through supplying dealership to sort it out. it's a pain but a common problem.

 

Remember then to check back with service agent to see that dates have been changed on system *-)

[Mike Chapman]

Hello Bob,

 

I have been through the same process with Renault to extend the warranty to the UK 3 Year Warranty commencing on the date of first registration to me.

 

They extended to three years after some mild badgering but initially stuck to their position on a start date of April 2007 the date when the vehicle was delivered to Burstner not August 2007 when it was first registered to me. I contacted Burstner and they in turn contacted Renault and the start date was modified to August 2007. I then had 3 years UK warranty from Aug 2007. You will probably have to be very firm to get the dates changed.

 

I used the argument of a Renault Car which had been standing in the dealers for 5 months prior to sale to its first customer. What in this case would the warranty start date be and they advised the date of first registration and this conflicted with the stance they were taking with my Master. They then suggested that I contact Burstner and provide a copy of the V5 to prove date of first registration. The start date was then modified.

 

Hope this is of assistance.

 

Hello Derek,

 

This warranty issue is very worrying. What would the position be if all servicing was done by a Manufacturers Main Dealer(s) and they had not specified the type of oil used on the invoice. My last service invoice quotes the amount of oil used but not the type or specification. When I phoned them they said "We always use Mobil of the correct specification" but could not then tell me the specification used other than to refer to the handbook spec. Can we assume that the manufacturer will always take the dealers word and will the dealer always use the correct specification?

 

My experience of providing 6 litres of my own oil (Mobil 1) for a service on a VW led to them returning 2 litres to me after the service which should have used 5 litres. It transpired that they had used their own Shell Oil and someone had walked off with the Mobil. They refunded the total cost of the service and issued an apology.

 

Some lessons to be learned here.

 

Regards,

 

Mike

[Derek Uzzell]

Mike:

 

The reason I originally chose to supply the oil used for my Hobby's servicing was because I knew the grade should be 5W-30 and I wasn't sure whether the garage carrying out the servicing would use this as it's reasonably uncommon.

 

Before the first annual service was due I phoned the garage to check about the oil and, as there appeared to be some doubt over what would be used, it was agreed that I'd supply the oil myself. I suppose I might have anticipated this might cause a potential problem where invoicing information was concerned if I had really thought about it, but I didn't.

 

I suppose the only thing to do to try to avoid the sort of warranty difficulties mentioned in the Telegraph is insist that the servicing-garage provides on the invoice comprehensive details of all parts and fluids used during a service. Not sure how well that request would go down...

 

 

Bob:

 

I've checked to see if I've still got the French magazines in which the letters about warranty start-dates were published, but it looks like it was back in 2005 and I don't keep anything older than 3 years.

 

For amusement's sake I searched for earlier forum threads on base-vehicle warranty issues and I've listed some of these below. They make interesting reading in more ways than one!

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=2127&posts=11

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=2559&posts=7

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=2842&posts=4

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=11703&posts=13

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=12078&posts=12

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=11285&start=1

[Usinmyknaus]

Mike and Derek,

 

Thanks for your help.

 

Bob

[JohnP]

I had the same problem with a Knaus on a Renault Master. The start date of the warranty was when the base vehicle left the Renault factory.

I eventually got the warranty start date change through Knaus, by submitting a copy of the Registration documents. The start day is now to the date I took ownership.

I still haven't managed to prise three years out of Renault.

[Usinmyknaus]

Thanks JohnP. For info. in case of interest, Lowdhams told me a few weeks ago that they are again receiving parts from Knaus (but they have to pay in advance for them) and they are still hopeful that Knaus will be taken over and resurrected.

 

Bob

[emmbeedee]

After reading this thread I decided to call Ford & make sure my warranty was all recorded & up-to-date. Surprise, surprise, the registration number was not recorded! VIN # was there, though, & Ford guy confirmed warranty , as on all UK Transits, is 3 years or 100,000 miles from date of registration. He wasn't sure why our registration # was not recorded, thought it could be dealer, or DVLA, or it just hasn't got thro' the system yet. Van bought new 8/11/08, so over 2 months ago.

Anyway, he is going to chase it up now, but says we will have no problems if we need warranty as dealers can use either reg. or VIN to process claims.