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Water ingress
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userTony323
Posted: 20 October 2021 10:09 PM
Subject: Water ingress
 
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Posts: 13



Hi, I've got a story, any ideas for a result. I have owned a Hobby Toskana Fiat Ducato 2011, 3 Ltr, for about 14 months now, no problems, when purchase it came with a full Habitationion Service, everything was good aND have been very pleased with this vehicle. About approx 8 weeks ago, I found there was 4 very small spots of water on the drivers seat, on close inspection of the top row of small lockers that run along the roof cab, 2 of the lockers showed a couple of tiny beads a water. It's never rained for months. I've tried to replicate this by hose pipe on the panoramic roof cab scenic window from the outside, but nothing. So I had a Habitation Service done, ( proffesionally).. All was well, he went like a fine tooth comb every inch of the van, (nothing) Although it wasn't raining that day. The roof of this Motorhome is very insulated but he had a scanner so could look at all of the roof from behind the installation (nothing) all was sound, his advice was the beads of water can only be coming from the Panoramic Scenic skylight cab window. It was also noticed that the plastic veneer was coming off from the top of the small cupboardS (that's nothing really, as it can be stuck back on but it does show that over time, miniscule drop of water has loosened it). So after having the Habitation Service, all he could recommend is either take the Scenic panoramic window out and re-fit and seal or reseal from the outside. Which I thought was a rubber sealbut the technician said it had been filled not a rubber seal (strange) . Therefore I set to on computer for more investigation. Finding on the outandaboutlive Forum, Hobby 2007-2012 Re-call, of Scenic Panoramic Cab Skylight Windows, water ingress and owners Loosing Skylight Windows whilst driving on Motorways, seemingly when Hobby Motorhomes were built in Germany 2007-2012, the Panoramic skylight windows, the film that was peeled off the window but the adhesive was left on, therefore when hobby had put adhesive onto the window and stuck onto the GRP Roof to seal, had the adverse effect, years later, causing degrigation, causing ingress water and eventually the Skylight Panoramic Window became loose a M assive safety issue. Hobby done a recall all vehicles 2007-2012. Hobby then under took Auto Glass to do all inspections and refit and seal all panoramic windows. So after reading this (you can imagine) I contacted Hobby UK. To find that my Hobby Toskana Motorhome was Recalled in 2017 and Auto-Glass had done a Re-fit and seal. Therefore Hobby instructed me to contact Auto-Glass, they have a safety section that deals with these. I sent all the revelant details to them. 2 days later, they came back to me, saying they have organised Auto-Glass to come out to my House, where they will put scaffolding around to inspect the window. The following week they appeared. What a waste of time. 2 Vans came, the Technician did not even get up on the roof to look at the window, just took a photo by standing on my front tyre. Said there was nothing they could do, water could be coming from anywhere, (where I park is on a slant water would drain downwards, would not listen, gave every excuse under the sun, and as you were not the owner at the time, I thought they gave a lifetime warranty on this?? So what do I do now. Attains trolley, reseal outside. Autoglass said there no way water qould get through there when job done it was sealed and resealed, what about water droplets, wouldn't listen, any ideas.???
userTony323
Posted: 21 October 2021 12:32 AM
Subject: RE: Water ingress
 
Just joined

Posts: 13



So sorry, thought the Thread didn't get through, looks like I sent again, with an extra couple of sentences, apologies.

I’ve deleted the duplicate - Derek Uzzell
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 21 October 2021 8:45 AM
Subject: RE: Water ingress
 


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Location: MODERATOR - 2015 Rapido 640F LHD 2.3ltr 150bhp


Earlier forum comments about Hobby motorhome rooflight problems

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Hobby-Safety-Campaign-Panoramic-Roof-Window/47183/

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/hobby-rooflight/32947/
userTony323
Posted: 21 October 2021 3:46 PM
Subject: RE: Water ingress
 
Just joined

Posts: 13



Hello Derek, thanks for Downloads. As you are a Man of Wealth of Knowledge of Moroehomes, can I ask your opinion. I thought about taking it further, as Auto Glass technician could see I was not able to get up on the roof myself and I felt very pushed to say you've got no chance. Sometimes like incidents like this happens, one doesn't take everything in, until you really think about what has just been said and happened. You may know (maybe not) but on starting a discussion like this, with someone, you get that instinct feeling, I'm not going t get anywhere with this person, don't get me wrong I was very poliet,, trying to give all the information I could, but when I realised, the technicians didn't even have a real close look at the outer sealant for any degredation just up on the front tyre and click photo smart phone, inside the van he pushed very gingerly on the skylight window the went straight onto his phone this Manager and everything he stated was turned around to get out of doing the job. I even asked if I took the motorhome to their depot, they could have a real look, maybe temp seal with tape and leave outside in the rain. I'm not being grouchy and told him was quite willing to pay for their time. Complete wash of their hands and said that's nothing they would be able to do, just take it to a Motorhome centre, but it will be very, very expensive.absolutely no help what ever when they had finished the 2 vans that they came in parked up below my house to even watch where I parked the vehicle. So Derick, as there is no rubber seal going around the skylight window on the outside, they had stated, when the motorhome was done 2017, tt had all being stripped, sealed onto GRP, sealed again and sealed again, with no rubber seal, he cannot honestly see water getting in (so what are the water droplets, shrugged his shoulders , also thinking about it, Motorhome was recalled 2017 and job , done, what is the difference if the vehicle has changed hands that to me should make completely no difference in the guarantee?as it at present just water droplets, should I try a couple of bottles of captains trolley, or add another sealent??? , I would have to get somebody up there.? Thanks Derek. For your time and reading. PS, the help you gave on Batteries, was a big help and all sorted.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 21 October 2021 5:54 PM
Subject: RE: Water ingress
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


On the face of it this closely resembles a leak we experienced on our 2007 Hobby Van. The leak was first detected in 2012, but on examination it was clear water had been getting past the front over cab (non opening) rooflight seals for some time before becoming apparent. There were a number of other reported instances of similar leaks with the same cause. At that time the rooflight comprised an outer skin of toughened glass with an inner, moulded plastic, skin bonded to it around its edges in similar fashion to a sealed double glazed unit or double glazed caravan window.

The outer toughened glass component was larger all round than the inner, plastic, component, creating a roughly half inch wide lip all around the rooflight that was bonded into a rebate in the GRP Hobby over-cab fairing in much the same way that a bonded car windscreen is sealed onto the metal body-shell. The rebate and sealant were trimmed with a neoprene "rubber" cover strip giving the initial impression that the rooflight was held in place in much the same way that older windscreens were held into vehicles with a rubber windscreen surround.

The cause of leakage was progressive failure of the bond between glass and GRP which, given the right (wrong? ) conditions, allowed water to enter the van. The points of entry were as you describe, and the leakage was first noticed following a fairly spectacular thunderstorm while we were on a site at Milan. A shelf immediately below the rooflight was found wet, with further ingress into an adjacent overhead locker. I was later able to borrow steps to examine the exterior but, due to the external cover strip this revealed little. What was revealing was applying upward pressure on the underside of rooflight from inside the van - when I could see the rooflight lift relative to the GRP fairing! This applied at both lower corners, although the remainder, including the centre of the bottom edge, appeared secure. As the van was still within its water ingress warranty the matter was dealt with under warranty by our nearest Hobby dealer following our return home.

The dealer called in a windscreen specialist who neatly cut away the seal, placed the rooflight on a trestle, removed all old sealant, cleaned and primed the glazing lip, and then did likewise to the glazing rebate in the fairing. He then applied new sealant all round and re-bonded the rooflight back into place. Remarkably quick, maybe 30 minutes, after which we had to wait for an hour or so for the sealant to cure sufficiently to drive the van home. A very neat, clean, one man job.

I think your first task now is to get into the van and systematically work all around the edges of the rooflight, pressing up on its underside (thumbs?), to see if you can detect any movement. If you do, note where and, if it is visible, take pictures. In addition, did the seller provide, or did you pay for, offer any kind of warranty when you bought the van?

Based on my own experience, I think you may be being given the run around by Auto-Glass. However, that begs the question as to why Auto Glass sent people to inspect your van, as they could more easily have explained that the warranty conditions would not extend to you.

Can Hobby UK provide you with any records of the 2017 recall on your van, can they confirm that the repair cost was borne by Hobby, and can they confirm that subsequent owners were expected to be able to claim against the Auto Glass warranty? In fact, from what you have said, I would expect Hobby UK to be the party to whom Auto Glass had warranted their work, as I assume each repair had to be authorised and instructed by them. If so, see if Hobby UK will will take up the failed repair with Auto Glass on your behalf, or at least lend you their support.

You are in a somewhat awkward position in not having been the owner of the van at the time of the repair, and not having been the client of Auto Glass. I have a copy of a 2014 Auto Glass guarantee (terms may have changed by 2017), and it is clear from this that the guarantee relates to the vehicle for as long as I own it - implying that it is not transferrable to a subsequent owner. However, that was an insurance job and was paid for by AVIVA. So, unless Hobby extracted better terms from Auto Glass, it seems you may have to foot the bill yourself.

Southdowns arranged the repairs to our Hobby in 2012, and the chap they brought in specialised in large windscreen (bus, coach, combine harvester etc.) repairs (quite a lot of Southdowns vans are in the Carthago and Concorde size range). So, maybe looking for local repairers of similar, large and more difficult to access, windscreen types, rather than car windscreens, might be a better bet.
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 22 October 2021 9:48 AM
Subject: RE: Water ingress
 


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Location: MODERATOR - 2015 Rapido 640F LHD 2.3ltr 150bhp


Tony

Brian has covered the issue in depth and I don’t think I can usefully add to his advice.

Derek
userTony323
Posted: 31 October 2021 11:03 PM
Subject: RE: Water ingress
 
Just joined

Posts: 13



Firstly thank you Brian for your in-depth reply, unfortunatly i have not been well, so things have got behind in sorting. It looks like you were right and have certainly got the run around from everybody concerned. so, where do i go from here ?? if nobody will accept responsibility for the Skylight panoramic roof above the cab starting to leak, i am now lost where to take it and what to have done. As the Panoramic window is fixed down, should i get sombody to do a reseal of sirka on-top of the othere? or should i get somebody to fill with Captains Creep as it is only drops of water? or should i take to a Proffessional Motorhome Garage and have it all taken out and redone?? i know it will have to be treated some how, even if auto-glass did refuse to do it are these the right type of firms for me to take it to for the job in hand, as ive not got a clue where to go from here. Ive always usually taken my motor home to our local garage for service and everything but i dont think they will do this.thanks for reading
userweldted
Posted: 31 October 2021 11:51 PM
Subject: RE: Water ingress
 
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Posts: 876
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Location: Burstner Ixeo 736


Try contacting your local bus garage, ours do outside work?
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 1 November 2021 8:27 AM
Subject: RE: Water ingress
 


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Location: MODERATOR - 2015 Rapido 640F LHD 2.3ltr 150bhp


Tony323 - 2021-10-31 11:03 PM

...As the Panoramic window is fixed down, should i get sombody to do a reseal of sirka on-top of the othere? or should i get somebody to fill with Captains Creep as it is only drops of water? or should i take to a Proffessional Motorhome Garage and have it all taken out and redone??...


I’ve attached an image of a Hobby Toskana 690 that shows the overcab rooflight.

I don’t think adding extra Sikaflex-type sealant over the top of the sealant that’s already there would be a guaranteed cure, though (assuming this were practicable) cutting away as much as possible of the existing sealant from outside the motorhome and resealing might work and avoid the rooflight having to be removed.

Based on the review on this link

https://www.boat-renovation.com/captain-tolleys-creeping-crack-cure-full-review/

if the area where the rooflight is bonded into the roof can be fully dried out, it might be worth trying using the Captain Tolley’s product as it shouldn’t do any harm. As the water leakage is evidently minor, the Captain Tolley’s sealant might fix the problem permanently, but if it doesn’t it shouldn’t affect the rooflight subsequently being removed and refitted using new sealant.

Are you 100% certain that the drops of water you’ve spotted are due to the rooflight leaking? That is likely to be the cause - but if it isn’t, you certainly don’t want to be disturbing the rooflight unnecessarily.

(I bought a Hobby T-600FC motorhome in 2005. This had no overcab rooflight, but water started to soak the interiors of the overcab storage lockers. This proved to be because Hobby had only insulating the lower half of the underside of the GRP overcab moulding: condensation predictably formed on the uninsulated surface, ran down and dripped onto the lockers (that were made of hardboard). Successfully addressing the problem was a nightmare.)

A digression, but I think your motorhome’s shower room may have the circular rooflight that Hobby fitted for a while. That rooflight has a chequered history that’s mentioned in this forum thread (that has links to earlier discussions and also referred to the overcab rooflight safety recall)

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/HOBBY-roof-light/49419/

You may well know about the circular rooflight problems, but if not it’s worth being aware of them.





(toskana 690.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments toskana 690.jpg (45KB - 11 downloads)
userTony323
Posted: 1 November 2021 9:06 AM
Subject: RE: Water ingress
 
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Posts: 13



Thanks Derek,it really helps, with some body to talk to who understands. Might be a daft question but you said it might be worth trying captains Tolley if i get it really dry, if i left the heating on for a couple of days when it is not raining would this help, all the weather heat waves have now gone into oblivion, back to hibernation of winter. thanks Derek.
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 1 November 2021 9:23 AM
Subject: RE: Water ingress
 


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Location: MODERATOR - 2015 Rapido 640F LHD 2.3ltr 150bhp


The review of the Captain Tolley’s product says

The only downfall with this product is the fact it needs to be applied to a dry surface. By using a heater, hairdryer or waiting for a good spell of weather you can create a waterproof and lasting seal.

As the sealant would need to be applied extermally to ‘creep’ into any gap around the skylight and the existing sealant and into any gap between the existing sealant and the GRP roof-moulding, I can’t see running the motorhome’s interior heater doing much good.

For the Tolley stuff to have the best chance of being effective you’d need to get the motorhome under cover and fully dry out the area round the skylight from above the roof. Or (as mentioned above) you could wait for a dry-weather forecast, use a hairdryer to dry out the skylight-to-roof joint as much as possible, give the joint the Tolley’s treatment, cover the skylight area if there’s any chance of rain and hope that the Tolley’s sealant will creep into every gap and dry out properly.
userTony323
Posted: 1 November 2021 5:32 PM
Subject: RE: Water ingress
 
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Posts: 13



Thanks Derek, typical being November, no where to put it under cover, looks like finding somthing to cover the skylight and waiting till next years warmer weather, never easy is it, take care.
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