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Water under plyfloor pvc x290 Boxer
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userKeithl
Posted: 7 January 2022 9:59 AM
Subject: RE: Water under plyfloor pvc x290 Boxer
 


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Gareth has also started a separate thread about the sealing of his Seitz windows which may be directly related...

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Seitz-S4-Windows-Sealing-outside-edge/59435/
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 7 January 2022 10:21 AM
Subject: RE: Water under plyfloor pvc x290 Boxer
 


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trialsrider - 2022-01-07 9:49 AM
Brian Kirby - 2022-01-07 9:45 AM
How is the van oriented vis a vis the prevailing winds? I'm just wondering which parts of the van the rain usually hits? Front, rear, right or left. Is there a fridge, and are there fridge vent grilles in the side of the van?

The right side is mainly shielded by a 6ft wall which is very close to the van. The right side certainly doesn't get much sun in winter either so would be considerably colder than the left
No gas fridge vents as it is a compressor.

Yes, but in terms of orientation? I.e. is the nose of the van N, S, E, or W, or between? It is nose high, and leans right. The leak is bottom right rear, so just inside the rear doors. Water on the roof will tend to flow downslope (toward the rear) and, with the tilt, toward the right side of the van. So, right hand rear door door seals?? The rear cill appears smooth, so water accumulating around the bottom of the door may be drawn past a poorly fitting seal by capillary attraction.
usertrialsrider
Posted: 7 January 2022 4:48 PM
Subject: RE: Water under plyfloor pvc x290 Boxer
 


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Brian Kirby - 2022-01-07 10:21 AM

trialsrider - 2022-01-07 9:49 AM
Brian Kirby - 2022-01-07 9:45 AM
How is the van oriented vis a vis the prevailing winds? I'm just wondering which parts of the van the rain usually hits? Front, rear, right or left. Is there a fridge, and are there fridge vent grilles in the side of the van?

The right side is mainly shielded by a 6ft wall which is very close to the van. The right side certainly doesn't get much sun in winter either so would be considerably colder than the left
No gas fridge vents as it is a compressor.

Yes, but in terms of orientation? I.e. is the nose of the van N, S, E, or W, or between? It is nose high, and leans right. The leak is bottom right rear, so just inside the rear doors. Water on the roof will tend to flow downslope (toward the rear) and, with the tilt, toward the right side of the van. So, right hand rear door door seals?? The rear cill appears smooth, so water accumulating around the bottom of the door may be drawn past a poorly fitting seal by capillary attraction.


Van nose faces eastwards. Van leans right to left with nose up. That's why I'm confident leak is right side in origin. It's not from rear doors as I've been in the garage of van during rain and nothing has come past seals.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 7 January 2022 6:53 PM
Subject: RE: Water under plyfloor pvc x290 Boxer
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


trialsrider - 2022-01-07 4:48 PM,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Van nose faces eastwards. Van leans right to left with nose up. That's why I'm confident leak is right side in origin. It's not from rear doors as I've been in the garage of van during rain and nothing has come past seals.

That is a bit odd. The rear of the van, where the water accumulates, faces West. The South side of the van is to some extent sheltered by the wall. Yet, the South West corner (which, with that orientation, would ordinarily be the corner that catches the worst of any rain), remains dry despite being lower than the North West corner, where the water accumulates. One would expect the water to accumulate at the lowest point, which would be the South West corner. So, yes, logically, that does suggest leakage on the right (South, but more sheltered) side of the van which then runs downslope along the corrugations in the floor.

I note your reference to the window in the right side of the van, and that there is silicone sealant along the top edge of the Seitz window. This would be a good area to investigate. As can be seen from Derek's link, the frame is split and relies on a supplementary inner timber (probably), plastic or aluminium frame being fitted inside to pack out the depth of the window opening sufficient to compress the sealant bead and create a weatherproof joint. As the inner and outer portions of the Seitz frame are screwed together to effect this compression it seems possible that the timber packing frame is below spec (or that the screws were insufficiently tightened) to adequately compress the sealant. That may be the reason for the added silicone.

The screw covers should come off fairly easily - I suspect they will be recessed type, so a bit of strong adhesive tape should give enough grip to pull them free. Then, with the screw heads accessible, try removing the lower screws one at a time to see if any show corrosion (indicating possible leakage), and then replace before taking out another. Note the warning about over-tightening, but also try turning the screws to tighten a little - to gauge how fully they have been tightened. If they won't tighten a bit they are probably already fully driven home.

If that is the case I'd begin to suspect that the packing frame is too thin. On our van, and several others I've seen, the frame sealant has exuded from the outer flange of the outer frame all round the opening and been tooled to a smooth finish externally. So silicone the would be superfluous and there would be little to hold the silicone in place.

You might be able to remove the inner portion of the split frame leaving the outer portion held in place by the sealant, so as to measure the thickness of the packing frame against Seitz's dimensions. If they are lean, then it seems the window must be removed entirely, all old sealant and silicone removed from bodywork and frame, some additional packing applied inside, and the whole re-installed with adequate sealant to exude from around the frame when the screws are re-tightened. For which, you're going to need shelter from rain or a bit of reliably dry weather! Possibly not a job for Wales in winter - unless you can get the van under cover!
userKeithl
Posted: 7 January 2022 6:59 PM
Subject: RE: Water under plyfloor pvc x290 Boxer
 


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Gareth,

Can you tie a tarp over the van roof and offending window to prevent any further rain falling on it and hopefully identify it as the cause of your leak?

Keith.
usertrialsrider
Posted: 7 January 2022 8:23 PM
Subject: RE: Water under plyfloor pvc x290 Boxer
 


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Thanks for everyone's replies. Brian that is a very detailed explanation. Thanks.

Yes it could be the window. But today I did manage to get my hand through into the lower body panel under the window. I removed one of the clip on blanking plates at the bottom of the panel near the floor. It was bone dry as was the insulation. But maybe it is tracking along towards the rear of the van somewhere higher up than where I could get my hand in. I could only reach up 6 inches. I may remove that top bead of silicone and temporally silicone all edges leaving a small section at the bottom for any moisture to escape. Water won't track upwards. At least I would know if it is the culprit before attempting to remove window. I have a sneaky suspicion the converter hasn't used a non setting sealant so removal may be very tricky.
usertrialsrider
Posted: 7 January 2022 8:28 PM
Subject: RE: Water under plyfloor pvc x290 Boxer
 


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Keithl - 2022-01-07 6:59 PM

Gareth,

Can you tie a tarp over the van roof and offending window to prevent any further rain falling on it and hopefully identify it as the cause of your leak?

Keith.


Yes good idea
usertrialsrider
Posted: 8 January 2022 8:50 AM
Subject: RE: Water under plyfloor pvc x290 Boxer
 


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I'm planning on removing the inner frames of the two rooflights this afternoon to check if they are the culprits. My question is whether I will damage the integrity of the existing seal (if it's not broken) by releasing the tension between the inner and outer frame sandwich on the mini heki and fiamma 280 rooflights. I don't think I will be able to see any water ingress by just removing the cover containing the blind on the mini heki. I'm worried that removing the tension of the sandwich may jeopardize the seal. Any thoughts?
usergoldi
Posted: 8 January 2022 3:24 PM
Subject: RE: Water under plyfloor pvc x290 Boxer
 
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trialsrider - 2022-01-08 8:50 AM
Y
I'm planning on removing the inner frames of the two rooflights this afternoon to check if they are the culprits. My question is whether I will damage the integrity of the existing seal (if it's not broken) by releasing the tension between the inner and outer frame sandwich on the mini heki and fiamma 280 rooflights. I don't think I will be able to see any water ingress by just removing the cover containing the blind on the mini heki. I'm worried that removing the tension of the sandwich may jeopardize the seal. Any thoughts?


You may as well reseal it anyway
usercolin
Posted: 8 January 2022 5:11 PM
Subject: RE: Water under plyfloor pvc x290 Boxer
 


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Is the window top hinged or sliding?
usertrialsrider
Posted: 8 January 2022 5:57 PM
Subject: RE: Water under plyfloor pvc x290 Boxer
 


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colin - 2022-01-08 5:11 PM

Is the window top hinged or sliding?


Top hinged
usertrialsrider
Posted: 8 January 2022 5:59 PM
Subject: RE: Water under plyfloor pvc x290 Boxer
 


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goldi - 2022-01-08 3:24 PM

trialsrider - 2022-01-08 8:50 AM
Y
I'm planning on removing the inner frames of the two rooflights this afternoon to check if they are the culprits. My question is whether I will damage the integrity of the existing seal (if it's not broken) by releasing the tension between the inner and outer frame sandwich on the mini heki and fiamma 280 rooflights. I don't think I will be able to see any water ingress by just removing the cover containing the blind on the mini heki. I'm worried that removing the tension of the sandwich may jeopardize the seal. Any thoughts?


You may as well reseal it anyway


Time is sadly something I have very little of. When I refitted the fiamma roof light I spent a day doing it.
usertrialsrider
Posted: 10 January 2022 2:56 PM
Subject: RE: Water under plyfloor pvc x290 Boxer
 


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I think I have narrowed down the source of the leak to either the wheel arch or the moulding next to the rear wheel arch and bumper. I spent a few hours hosing different areas waiting for wetness to show and the wheel arch and associated moulding area seemed to make the area wet inside. I think it could be coming through either the moulding clips or some vent like device under the moulding. It certainly seems in the right place to let water in. Any idea what it is ? If it is a vent it's not doing anything as the garage area has been pretty much sealed off to air anyway. I think I will remove it and blank it off.



(IMG_20220110_143505352~2.jpg)



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Attachments IMG_20220110_143505352~2.jpg (83KB - 8 downloads)
userKeithl
Posted: 10 January 2022 3:57 PM
Subject: RE: Water under plyfloor pvc x290 Boxer
 


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Gareth,

The large vent you have circled is the body vent to allow an airflow through the vehicle. In a normal van it would help reduce condensation in the van but seen as your van is all but sealed in that area then I see no reason not to remove it and seal the opening. I would simply tape it over with a quality aluminium duct sealing tape.
A common source of leaks on panel vans are the moulding clips and it is quite normal to remove them and refit with a blob of none setting mastic. Do not use household silicone as the acetic acid can promote rust.

Keith.
userKeithl
Posted: 10 January 2022 4:00 PM
Subject: RE: Water under plyfloor pvc x290 Boxer
 


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Robinhood - 2022-01-10 3:27 PM

...one of these:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/164284965241

...though it does look like that might be "handed" the other way round.

Edited to add.

Having looked at other pictures, I think the part is symettrical, but the cut out isn't (so same part either side?.)

There is only one part number on the Fiat parts diagram.
usertrialsrider
Posted: 10 January 2022 4:38 PM
Subject: RE: Water under plyfloor pvc x290 Boxer
 


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Keithl - 2022-01-10 3:57 PM

Gareth,

The large vent you have circled is the body vent to allow an airflow through the vehicle. In a normal van it would help reduce condensation in the van but seen as your van is all but sealed in that area then I see no reason not to remove it and seal the opening. I would simply tape it over with a quality aluminium duct sealing tape.
A common source of leaks on panel vans are the moulding clips and it is quite normal to remove them and refit with a blob of none setting mastic. Do not use household silicone as the acetic acid can promote rust.

Keith.


Thanks for the response. Yes there are ten clips plus five screw's to hold this panel on. I think I'll remove the vent if I can but it may be difficult from outside if it is pressed up against a panel.

I have some sikolaster butyl sealant from the previous roof light fitting I could use. Would you not just use sikaflex 510 ?

Edited by trialsrider 2022-01-10 4:41 PM
userKeithl
Posted: 10 January 2022 5:00 PM
Subject: RE: Water under plyfloor pvc x290 Boxer
 


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Sikaflex 510 is listed as a sealant so should be good for the job.
usertrialsrider
Posted: 11 January 2022 5:41 AM
Subject: RE: Water under plyfloor pvc x290 Boxer
 


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Keithl - 2022-01-10 4:00 PM

Robinhood - 2022-01-10 3:27 PM

...one of these:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/164284965241

...though it does look like that might be "handed" the other way round.

Edited to add.

Having looked at other pictures, I think the part is symettrical, but the cut out isn't (so same part either side?.)

There is only one part number on the Fiat parts diagram.


Do you think there is one on either side ? I can't find any info to say if there is one on the near side too
userRobinhood
Posted: 11 January 2022 7:38 AM
Subject: RE: Water under plyfloor pvc x290 Boxer
 


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The parts diagrams are pretty generic, and only one side is shown, but it does not have an arrow to the other side. Your guess is as good as mine.

It does show the potential for another similar (not the same) part the other side, but it looks like it might be behind the rear bumper/trim (and has the facility for a blanking cap).





(vent1.JPG)



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userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 11 January 2022 8:09 AM
Subject: RE: Water under plyfloor pvc x290 Boxer
 
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This data on this Russian webpage

https://tinyurl.com/ycy8bpub

suggest that there will be two rear air intake grilles (Part Number 1360109080) one on each body side.

The other air intake unit (Part Number 1355707080) is apparently fitted at the front of the Ducato on a chassis member as well at at the vehicle's rear and there's a cover available that can be fitted to block off the vent (mentioned on the Fiat forum).

(The drawings relate to Ducato X250 models, but I'd expect the positioning of the air intakes to be the same for X290s)
usertrialsrider
Posted: 11 January 2022 9:30 AM
Subject: RE: Water under plyfloor pvc x290 Boxer
 


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Robinhood - 2022-01-11 7:38 AM

The parts diagrams are pretty generic, and only one side is shown, but it does not have an arrow to the other side. Your guess is as good as mine.

It does show the potential for another similar (not the same) part the other side, but it looks like it might be behind the rear bumper/trim (and has the facility for a blanking cap).



Thanks for the response. I think I will just have to remove both panels and blank off whatever I find.
usertrialsrider
Posted: 11 January 2022 9:31 AM
Subject: RE: Water under plyfloor pvc x290 Boxer
 


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Derek Uzzell - 2022-01-11 8:09 AM

This data on this Russian webpage

https://tinyurl.com/ycy8bpub

suggest that there will be two rear air intake grilles (Part Number 1360109080) one on each body side.

The other air intake unit (Part Number 1355707080) is apparently fitted at the front of the Ducato on a chassis member as well at at the vehicle's rear and there's a cover available that can be fitted to block off the vent (mentioned on the Fiat forum).

(The drawings relate to Ducato X250 models, but I'd expect the positioning of the air intakes to be the same for X290s)


Thanks Derek
usertrialsrider
Posted: 11 January 2022 9:53 AM
Subject: RE: Water under plyfloor pvc x290 Boxer
 


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Keithl - 2022-01-10 3:57 PM

Gareth,

The large vent you have circled is the body vent to allow an airflow through the vehicle. In a normal van it would help reduce condensation in the van but seen as your van is all but sealed in that area then I see no reason not to remove it and seal the opening. I would simply tape it over with a quality aluminium duct sealing tape.
A common source of leaks on panel vans are the moulding clips and it is quite normal to remove them and refit with a blob of none setting mastic. Do not use household silicone as the acetic acid can promote rust.

Keith.


What do you think would be the best option. Remove the clips altogether, fill hole with sealant and refit panel with sikaflex holding it on? Or do what they seem to do on you tube and put a dab of sealant on each clips rear face and then refit panel.

I'm not convinced a bit of sealant on the back of the clips will guarantee a water proof seal. It is possible for the clip seal to be seated on the clip in the hole yet still expose part of the appeture of the clip hole. It only seems to seal it if the clip is dead centre in the aperture. Sadly you can't see this as you have pushed the panel in place.
usertrialsrider
Posted: 18 January 2022 4:56 PM
Subject: RE: Water under plyfloor pvc x290 Boxer
 


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Well I thought I'd update people as to my progress. I pulled off all the off side mouldings and removed the vent. On removing the vent the insulation behind it was soaking and in fact frozen in places. Thankfully the wall boards are made of moisture resistant MDF. I drilled out the other side of the vent and fitted an inspection hatch so I can keep an eye on the area and reinsulate once I know it's dry. I covered all appetures with aluminium plate and sikaflexed the plating in situ. I then sikaflexed every body panel clip and seal and refitted the moulding. I also sikaflexed the top edge and sides of each moulding except for the rear most moulding as that needs to be able to be removed should you ever need to remove the bumper corner. I will do the same on the near side on the weekend. What is encouraging is that the insulation above the vent was not wet, just the insulation next to it and below. Fingers crossed I've found the culprit.



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Attachments IMG_20220117_160031728_copy_468x624.jpg (65KB - 3 downloads)
Attachments IMG_20220117_132730414.jpg (71KB - 3 downloads)
Attachments IMG_20220117_132754568.jpg (90KB - 4 downloads)
Attachments IMG_20220117_132744128.jpg (79KB - 3 downloads)
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 18 January 2022 6:34 PM
Subject: RE: Water under plyfloor pvc x290 Boxer
 


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That sounds very promising. Good detective work, and well done!
userpepe63
Posted: 19 January 2022 1:40 PM
Subject: RE: Water under plyfloor pvc x290 Boxer
 
5000


A somewhat belated Happy New Year to you all (hope you are all safe and well )

Trialsrider- Hopefully, you've found the cause of the "leak"..

.. But is/was there anything to suggest just why that vent (and/or the trim fixings?) would've been letting in water anymore than other X290 vans and/or conversions?

It's just that, if they were an issue, wouldn't it be a well documented fault by now?...

Assuming all conversion apertures have been ruled out, are all of the *panel and wheel arch seams okay? (also what, if any, roof rack fixings/bolt holes do X290s have? and are they "water tight"? )

My apologies if I'm just going over what you've already checked. .
usertrialsrider
Posted: 19 January 2022 8:24 PM
Subject: RE: Water under plyfloor pvc x290 Boxer
 


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pepe63 - 2022-01-19 1:40 PM

A somewhat belated Happy New Year to you all (hope you are all safe and well )

Trialsrider- Hopefully, you've found the cause of the "leak"..

.. But is/was there anything to suggest just why that vent (and/or the trim fixings?) would've been letting in water anymore than other X290 vans and/or conversions?

It's just that, if they were an issue, wouldn't it be a well documented fault by now?...

Assuming all conversion apertures have been ruled out, are all of the *panel and wheel arch seams okay? (also what, if any, roof rack fixings/bolt holes do X290s have? and are they "water tight"? )

My apologies if I'm just going over what you've already checked. .


To be honest my approach is basically to rule out every possibility however following instinct and evidence. As mentioned before the van is parked sloping offside to nearside and nose up so for water to be present on the right side it must firstly be low down and near the rear otherwise it would migrate left. I fitted the solar and bathroom roof light and being very meticulous I am pretty sure it is not them. Damp meter readings all around roof and walls were consistently equal and low. I spent a long time on a ladder inspecting roof seams and any non standard openings and fixtures and I was satisfied all is ok. My hose test on various areas of the van suggested it was something on the off side causing the ingress. I began removing panels and discovered the vent. Vent was removed and soaking wet insulation discovered. Insulation above was dry. Holes covered and sikaflexed with mouldings refitted. Floor has now started to dry out despite the van getting rained on this week. I fitted an incontinence sheet inside the void being the inspection hatch where the damp insulation had been. Just checked it tonight and it's bone dry. Fingers crossed I've sorted it but I will still do the near side. My approach is generally belt and braces with anything mechanical.

There is lots of stuff on YouTube about leaking body mouldings. I counted nearly 50 clips meaning 50 holes on just the off side alone. That's 50 possible water ingress points. Maybe the big converters seal them up prophetically as well as fitting a moisture membrane? Maybe the vents are removed and covered up. Maybe my situation is worsened by the incline and orientation of my van on the drive. Time and rain will tell if I've nailed it. Fingers crossed !!!
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