Why no BIG group tests in MMM

[Guest fjmike]

Whilst attempting to read Campingcar magazine (my french is not brilliant)the thought occured to me. Why dont MMM do a Big group test(ie 20+ M/Hs) like the motorcycle / car press do?. Is it reluctance of the converters to supply for said test fearing not measuring up?. Is it that there aren't enough journos on the payroll to complete?. Is it MMM fearing using up too much material at once?. I would genuinley like to know as I think there would be great interest in such articles. I just thought of another possible reason Not so many potential buyers going to MMM organised shows?

[Guest Derek Uzzell]

Presumably you are referring to the "20 best front-lounge motorhome designs for 2006" type of article sometimes seen in French magazines? I'm fond of these pieces, but they aren't 'tests' as I understand the word, just a selection of photos for each vehicle, plus a small amount of comparative data and supporting text. I guess the journalist traipses round appropriate dealers, takes a few pictures/notes and then bolts everything together. As the vehicles aren't being road tested it shouldn't be that hard to do, just very time consuming. In his reply to an earlier "motorhome/campervan tests" posting Peter Sharpe touched on how UK motorhome magazines obtain test vehicles. With the French motorhome market being massively larger than that of the UK in terms of the numbers of manufacturers actively competing, it stands to reason that obtaining 'vans to report on will be much easier for French leisure magazines. MMM Special Correspondents are freelancers, so I can't see your "journos on the payroll" idea being an overriding inhibition. However, you may well be correct to suggest that, with a strictly limited well of test vehicles to draw from, an editor may prefer to publish in-depth reports of (say) an Esterel in May and of a LeVoyageur in June, rather than choose to do a 'head-to-head' report of "Two French Luxury A-Class Models" in July. It perplexes me that you select MMM as a possible vehicle for a Big Group Test. I would have thought that, out of the Warners motorhome-oriented titles, Which Motorcaravan would be much more suitable as it already regularly does head-to-head reports of 2 or 3 similar concept designs. WM's editor is always keen to have suggestions for how his magazine could be improved, so he could well appreciate you passing on your thoughts to him. I'm afraid I don't understand the relevance of your last 2 sentences.

[Guest fjmike]

Don't get me wrong Clive I was not singling out MMM, I thought the best place to ask would be here. The last two sentences were (one) to try to convey that the question was being asked through curiosity not any malice (two)this maybe a reason for not doing a large test as potential buyers may not need to go to a Warner show to narrow down their selection, I was only speculating this as a possible reason, though in hindsight (wonderful gift)it would not be a reason for other magazines as they don't run shows

[Guest Clive]

Derek is not my alter ego - well not last time i looked! Clive

[Guest fjmike]

Ooops sorry about that Derek and Clive

[Guest Mel E]

I think Derek has the key point: when the same publisher runs two titles, it is important to differentiate them or one simply canibalises sales from the other. WM? is obviously more geared to the new buyer (or buyer of new) whereas MMM's strength over the years has been in providing superb support for existing owners of motorhomes - both recent and long term. Thus the in-depth tests pander better to the existing owner who wants the detail to check off against his/her wish list when the next change time comes along. One point about the two leading French magazines (and the two main German ones for that matter) that you may not be aware of. The French motorhome market is 2.5 times the size of the UK and the German one some 3.5 times the size. Hence sales of the magazines are much larger and each has a significant permanent staff. I'm sure MMM's Editors would love such a luxury.

[Guest Yorkshire Tyke]

Personaly I dont buy MMM for the "test reports" If I was going to buy another MH I would buy "Which Motorcaravan" instead/as well I look for the travel reports and the technical bits plus news from €urope etc. I dont even look at the test reports

[Guest bill h]

I don't quite follow what advantage group testing is. A journalist's report just adds more fuel to the fire or as I like to put it 'more decoration to the wallpaper' The more one looks and reads the more confusing it becomes. A strict rule is a firm 'must have' and 'will never have' opinion, then wait around until it appears and it will last you a life time. And don't be persuaded by her indoors!! bill h

[Guest fjmike]

I think group testing can be very informative, to ilustrate.Briefly my purchasing interests lie in a low profile with fixed bed, possible wants are large garage, Renault based, winterised. So although not actively looking for a M/H at the moment I like to keep an eye on whats available. A recent Campingcar magazine had a test of 25 low profiles, this consisted of full reviews of about 4 or 5 vans and then specs,layouts of the others. This enabled me to see what was available and how each M/H compared with the other. So without going to a show or a dealer I could see which M/Hs I would be interested in and which ones did not suit me. In my case I could seive out at a glance all the M/Hs that had say rear lounges and no garage. Bill you could even use your method of "must have" and "never have" to reach your decision

[Guest martin]

I think there is a definite place for these and it isn't as difficult as all that. These aren't bits of journalism but rather an editorial job; sitting analysing comparative data, comparing and contrasting, commenting from expereince and knowledge pointing out design trends and new features. In reality a rather dull and tedious job for long winter night sat with a pile of brochures ... as for the illustrations these often come free from manufacturers.

[Guest Mel B]

Martin Would you really trust everything that a manufacturer tells you in the brochure? I wouldn't! You can't beat someone actually using a vehicle to see just what it's like to live with and whether or not there are any major flaws with it ... like stupidly small payloads and not being able to carry passengers to name but two. I like to have things checked out a bit more 'personally' and the MMM and other publications' writers do just that. The articles are a very good and useful supplement to the brochurs etc that you can get from dealers. When faced with sometimes a very long drive to view vehicles being able to narrow down the field a bit from these write-ups can be very useful. A few years ago when we were looking to change our 'van we thought the Dethleffs Bus 1 would suit us, but not being able to see one in the flesh without a long drive, we had a good read at an in depth article ... we then changed our minds due to the drawbacks it had and the 'good idea but not that user friendly' toilet compartment arrangement. We were then seriously looking at our second choice, a Rapido 709F and at the same time there was an excellent article published in MMM by Jo Vaughan about it, this gave us most of the information we wanted to know so that when we did come to view it we were well armed to crawl all over it, checking any possible short-comings etc and made sure that it was definitely the right 'van for us before signing on the dotted line. Nearly 3 years later we are still very happy with our choice, despite our trying to tempt ourselves at the Dusseldorf show last August! Our previous 'van was kept for only 18 months as it was a real lemon so you can be sure that if we weren't happy we'd have changed by now! If you are happy to just have a compilation of bits and pieces from brochures you might as well just get them sent to you direct from the manufacturers and cut out the middle-men (and women). Each to their own I suppose!

[Guest martin]

Mel: I'm not being argumentative but I did write "commenting from expereince and knowledge" And I think you have misunderstood my intention - sign of a poor communicator I guess. As for brochures, they are exceedingly accurate and must conform to the Trade Description Act, and everyone at Warner's uses manufacturer's web sites and brochures as data sources at some time or other. You don't run your tape measure round every van to check do you? Anyway, I would love to have had someone with expereince and knowledge talk about (say) low profiles as a group when we were looking for ours - a single low profile, profile every other month doesn't really help take the leg work out of looking, and it would have helped us make a short list. Again as I said something "pointing out design trends and new features" serves a valuable purpose for those of us who simply want a vehicle we feel comfortable in and allow us the freedom to explore and enjoy places and life without the slightest bit of interest in D2PE engine serial number x to y from the Seville plant or the latest P9064 omnial-dipthong gas analyser. I'm sorry you don't think this might be of any value, I do, and remember I never suggested these round-ups were anything other than a useful addition to the in depth reports or did I?

[Guest Brian Kirby]

I tend to agree with fjmike about the usefulness of these group tests, although it does depend, like all tests, on how that are conducted. I don't know about the Camping Car mag tests, I have tended to read Le Monde du Camping Car, its French rival. That conducts an annual "shoot out" type group test. They take off in 10 or so motorhomes, similar in size and layout, each tester driving each of the motorhomes for a leg of the trip so that, by the end of the trip, every tester has driven, and marked, every van. They then pool views and experience and average their markings to provide an overall score. The vans are lived in by the testers for the trip, so kitchens, washrooms, showers, fridges, seats, etc, etc, all get "used in anger". The results are very interesting and rather more revealing than the single tester opinions given in single van tests. These are not "10 minutes round the block" trips. They have included, for example, a trip around Corsica, so that nuances in the driving experience emerge where 'vans are on differing base vehicles, or even on the same base but with different engine options. Things that please about one 'van are thrown into sharper contrast by comparison with irritations in another. Because the 'vans are lived in, the practicality and serviceability of layouts, equipment, design details all come into sharper focus where alternative design solutions are immediately to hand and fresh in the memory. In a similar vein, head to head tests are also conducted, taking two similar 'vans of similar price and contrasting how the offerings compare in terms of quality, driving, habitability etc. Therefore, if MMM could draw upon this model, I too, think it would be beneficial. Regards Brian

[Guest bill h]

Brian's comments on 10 vehicles and 10 drivers alternating sounds a better solution. bill h

[Guest Ruth]

I agree with the suggestion of larger group tests, I have just spent a couple ofweeks in france and bought a camping Car magazine featuring a group test of new compacts (Hymer-van type)and thought (before I saw this posting) how helpful it was as a formula. I greatly respect Which Motorcaravan and it's professional and unbiasased tests, I would trust it's reports. However I don't thionk that their group tests are really group tests, often the layouts or spec of the models involved seem to be too different to be really useful and it does sometimes beg the question was it led by what was available rather than a planned exercise from the point of view of "if I want a such-and-such type of 'van what would my shortlist be?" 10-20 van reports like in CC mag or the rival would be really helpful as a headstart in the choosing process.